The Big Bang Theory

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Sounds like an enormous beat-up. Astronomers (even those working on the theory that the Earth is the centre of the universe)have predicted the dates of eclipses hundreds, even thousands of years in advance, which have proved to be correct.
I didn’t say that the approximations weren’t useful, or accurate over the short term. Or accurate for a 2 body system. Obviously, we can predict where the moon will be a few months from now.

I thought it was fairly common knowledge that trying to figure out the laws of planetary motion with more than 2 masses involved gets very complex very quickly. Because the sun is so massive compared with everything else in the solar system, and the planets are far from each other, good approximations of planetary motion can be made assuming the 2 body system (Sun and 1 other planet). But given enough time (e.g. millions of years), we can’t really predict where the planets will be.

This isn’t where I read about this subject originally, but here’s a couple of links I found on short notice:

geocities.com/paul_trow/essays/chaos/ChaosandSolarSystem4.htm

scienceweek.com/2004/sc040507-4.htm

The general subject of chaos theory is absolutely fascinating. If I can find my original reference I’ll post it.
 
Hawkings is a pure agnostic. He does not believe in a personal God but at the same time he recognises that going beyond the Big Bang is a legitimate endeavor of religion and methaphysics. Mainly because natural science rules get suspended or stop when your each the moment of the Big Bang. So even him does left a space for God there. But he wonders about the complexity and origin of a posible God. Same preocupation as Dawkins but Hawkins does not pretend to apply our universe biological evolutionary laws to a preuniversal GOD as Dawkins does.
BTW E. Hubble opposed Lemaitre Big Bang to the end of his life mainly because he felt that theory was too christian, and Lemaitre was a catholic priest. Even when the radiological evidence of the BIG BANG started to appear. To the joy of a dying Monsignor Lemaitre.
 
Sounds like an enormous beat-up. Astronomers (even those working on the theory that the Earth is the centre of the universe)have predicted the dates of eclipses hundreds, even thousands of years in advance, which have proved to be correct.
Detailed prediction of astronomical motion gets quite complex. While the earth and sun are the primary factors in lunar motion one must also factor in the effect of the earth’s tides on slowing the lunar orbit. The GPS system required even more detailed calculation including variations in earth gravity from a simple r-square dependence at that altitude and the propulsive effect of solar radiation and solar wind. I did a calculation on the effect of variations in solar radiation. While they do have an effect, it falls within the current system accuracy.
 
BTW E. Hubble opposed Lemaitre Big Bang to the end of his life mainly because he felt that theory was too christian, and Lemaitre was a catholic priest. Even when the radiological evidence of the BIG BANG started to appear. To the joy of a dying Monsignor Lemaitre.
Hubble opposed the Big Bang theory? Are you sure you’re not thinking of Fred Hoyle?
But the theory was controversial. The scientific establishment believed in an eternal universe, and many cosmologists were reluctant to accept a theory that smacked of

simonsingh.net/Big_Bang.html
Fred Hoyle
who opposed the Big Bang theory and
developed the Steady State theory
divine creation. Hence, Fred Hoyle proposed an alternative Steady State model in which the universe was both expanding and eternal. However, even though Hoyle was an opponent of the Big Bang theory, it was he who christened the theory, referring to it disdainfully in a radio broadcast as “this ‘Big Bang’ idea”. The name stuck, and so did Hoyle’s opposition to the theory.

The stage was set for a major battle between the two camps – Big Bang versus Steady State. It would take the rest of the twentieth century to resolve the conflict, with both sides desperately searching for evidence to shore up their own theory and crush the opposition. The battle for cosmic truth would involve politics, religion, bitter disputes, nuclear physics, satellites, telescopes, a supposed echo from the Big Bang, and remarkable serendipity, resulting in one of the greatest adventures in the history of science.
 
here:
I got the quote slightly wrong 🙂
it would still be up to God to wind up the clockwork and choose how to start it off. So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is really completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end: it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator? [Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time (New York: Bantam, 1988), p. 140-41.]
 
“Hubble opposed the Big Bang theory? Are you sure you’re not thinking of Fred Hoyle?
But the theory was controversial. The scientific establishment believed in an eternal universe, and many cosmologists were reluctant to accept a theory that smacked of…”

Thinking of it I’m not sure which one. I was remembering the History Channel show on the Big Bang.
BTW any of you had read the book " A Day Without Yesterday? about the life of Monsignor Georges Lemaitre. Is any good?
 
So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is really completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end: it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator? [Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time (New York: Bantam, 1988), p. 140-41.]
To re word my original question; how does the above statement affect Aquinas’ 5 proofs?
 
I heard a quote from Stephen Hawking when he invented the big bang theory: ‘what need then is their for a creator?’.

The BB theory was around a long time before Hawking. I’ve heard it attributed to a RC monk, but it didn’t catch on until the time of the astronomer Hubble 50 years ago. Until then, science posited a steady-state (always existing) universe.

Of course, both BB theory and Genesis 1:1 say the same basic thing: there was Nothing, and then there was Something–and the first thing to be differentiated from this Something was light.
 
here:
I got the quote slightly wrong 🙂
You did get it slightly wrong 🙂

Well Hawking is arguing that from a matematical perspective.

I think he believes the universe is infinite.
I still dont grasp his concept of inmaginary time.
He says something like that there was a creation at the big bang, but he say there was no beginning in immaginary time.

here is a quote from an interveiw:

(Qoute)
To oversimplify your theories hugely, and I hope you’ll forgive me for this, Stephen, you once believed, as I understand it, that there was a point of creation, a big bang, but you no longer believe that to be the case. You believe that there was no beginning and there is no end, that the universe is self-contained. Does that mean that there was no act of creation and therefore that there’s no place for God?

STEPHEN: Yes, you have oversimplified. I still believe the universe has a beginning in real time, at the big bang. But there’s another kind of time, imaginary time, at right angles to real time, in which the universe has no beginning or end. This would mean that the way the universe began would be determined by the laws of physics. One wouldn’t have to say that God chose to set the universe going in some arbitrary way that we couldn’t understand. It says nothing about whether or not God exists - just that He isn’t arbitrary.
(endquote)

I personately think that Hawking has an abobinable knowledge of theology. He is saying that the freedom of God is being restringted by the laws that God already created.

Besides the natural laws are not perfect, and cant restringted God.
Even if we find a theory that describes everything, there will always will be a degree of uncertainty like the one in quantum mechanics.
 
Imaginary time

Imaginary time is also used in cosmology. It is used to describe models of the universe in physical cosmology. Stephen Hawking popularized the concept of imaginary time in his book A Brief History of Time.

Imaginary time is difficult to visualize. If we imagine “regular time” as a horizontal line with “past” on one side and “future” on the other, then imaginary time would run perpendicular to this line as the imaginary numbers run perpendicular to the real numbers in the complex plane. However, imaginary time is not imaginary in the sense that it is unreal or made-up—it simply runs in a direction different from the type of time we experience. In essence, imaginary time is a way of looking at the time dimension as if it were a dimension of space: you can move forward and backward along imaginary time, just like you can move right and left in space.

The concept is useful in cosmology because it can help smooth out gravitational singularities in models of the universe (see Hartle-Hawking state). Singularities pose a problem for physicists because they are areas where known physical laws do not apply. The Big Bang, for example, appears as a singularity in “regular time.” But when visualized with imaginary time, the singularity is removed and the Big Bang functions like any other point in spacetime.
 
I heard a quote from Stephen Hawking when he invented the big bang theory: ‘what need then is their for a creator?’.

The BB theory was around a long time before Hawking. I’ve heard it attributed to a RC monk, but it didn’t catch on until the time of the astronomer Hubble 50 years ago. Until then, science posited a steady-state (always existing) universe.

Of course, both BB theory and Genesis 1:1 say the same basic thing: there was Nothing, and then there was Something–and the first thing to be differentiated from this Something was light.
Big bang theory is introduced
1927


Georges Lemaître
 
Here there are some good articles that can explain the mistaken theological stance of Hawking.

Stephen Hawking’s God
In his best-selling book “A Brief History of Time”, physicist Stephen Hawking claimed that when physicists find the theory he and his colleagues are looking for - a so-called “theory of everything” - then they will have seen into “the mind of God”. Hawking is by no means the only scientist who has associated God with the laws of physics. Nobel laureate Leon Lederman, for example, has made a link between God and a subatomic particle known as the Higgs boson. Lederman has suggested that when physicists find this particle in their accelerators it will be like looking into the face of God. But what kind of God are these physicists talking about?

Theoretical physicist and Nobel laureate Steven Weinberg suggests that in fact this is not much of a God at all. Weinberg notes that traditionally the word “God” has meant “an interested personality”. But that is not what Hawking and Lederman mean. Their “god”, he says, is really just “an abstract principle of order and harmony”, a set of mathematical equations. Weinberg questions then why they use the word “god” at all. He makes the rather profound point that “if language is to be of any use to us, then we ought to try and preserve the meaning of words, and ‘god’ historically has not meant the laws of nature.” The question of just what is “God” has taxed theologians for thousands of years; what Weinberg reminds us is to be wary of glib definitions.

God and Time
In his book “A Brief History of Time” physicist Stephen Hawking made the claim that if his “no-boundary cosmology” was correct then there would be no need for a creator. His cosmological model proposes that there was no precise moment when the universe “began”, because there was no precise moment when time began. Because of that Hawking, claimed, there would be no role for a creator. In Hawking’s model, the quality called time emerged out of a kind of quantum fuzz in which there was, at least at the initial moment of the big bang, an “imaginary” component of time. This term, does not mean a kind of Alice-in-Wonderland time, it has a precise mathematical meaning - relating to what are called complex numbers. The details of imaginary time are not important, what matters rather is Hawking’s notion that time as we know it did not begin at a specific point, but gradually emerged from something more complex. According to Hawking, the universe did not begin “in” time, rather time itself came into being with the universe.

But if Hawking sees this as an argument against a creator, physicist and theologian Robert Russell begs to differ. Russell points out that Hawking’s idea is very similar to the idea proposed over 1500 years ago by the great early Christian theologian, Saint Augustine. Augustine too declared that the universe was not created in time, but rather with time. As Russell notes, here is a beautiful instance where classic theology and contemporary science are very much in sync with one another. “You have an interesting picture of two very different cultures,” he says, “but a similar intellectual question being asked in both cases.” And, moreover, similar answers being given. What this shows us, Russell says, is that “Hawking is actually our ally, theologically, because he tells us that the notion of a finite universe as the creation of God can be sustained, whether or not it has a beginning point.”
 
Does anyone know if Hawkings’ theories, especially imaginary time disprove any of Aquinas’ 5 proofs. I heard on another thread that all of Aquinas’ proofs can be disproved by modern science, is this true?
 
Does anyone know if Hawkings’ theories, especially imaginary time disprove any of Aquinas’ 5 proofs. I heard on another thread that all of Aquinas’ proofs can be disproved by modern science, is this true?
I dont think so, the universe is in motion and it was setted in motion, regardless of whether the universe was created in time or with time itself.

Many atheists try to find another way out to debunk Aquinas proofs, but most of the times their arguments are not pretty convincing. They just try to find an skeptic way of watching those arguments.
 
Does the big bang theory explain how the universe could (in theory) be created without the need for an ‘unmoved mover’?

I heard a quote from Stephen Hawking when he invented the big bang theory: ‘what need then is their for a creator?’.

Could anyone explain to me the big bang theory and how and why Hawking was able to make this statement?
Hawking did not come up with the Big Bang Theory,

http://mensa-barbie.com/bloggerimages/400lemaite_Belgian_cosmologist_proposed_big_bang_1920

That man did, and yes, he was a Roman Catholic Priest:p

Anyway, Hawking Confirmed some aspects of Einsteins theory, and I beleive he did come up with a model, in imagionary time, of the Big Bang theory that would not require one “sharp” starting point. I don’t really study physics any more so I can’t explain in very well.
 
Does anyone know if Hawkings’ theories, especially imaginary time disprove any of Aquinas’ 5 proofs. I heard on another thread that all of Aquinas’ proofs can be disproved by modern science, is this true?
Science coulden’t disprove any of them, however modern Philosophy casts them into doubt(to say the least). G.E.M Anscombe was a Catholic Philosopher at Oxford who used Predicate Logic to show serious flaws in the First Cause argument.

I dislike Aquinas’s proofs, they all seem to be based in the empericle, somehow it seems like a true proof for God must be totally a-priori, however that is purely intuitive.

However they are brilliant.
 
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