The Big Lie

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Since the time of the reformation it has been well documented, by the Protestant Church, the identification of the false religion. The Catholic Church has been accused ever since Luthe’s Thesis of been the false doctrine the Bible speaks of. And what better Doctrine than Mariology to let the Bible guide us to the false doctrine.

Mariology is the central point of departure in traditional Catholics. In Latin America for example, the Doctrine of Mariology takes a big chunck of religious practices for Catholics. In fact, the last Pope, John Paul II, was a devoted Pope to the Doctrine of the Virgin Mary.

With the path of God as the Christian goal, is Luke in chapter 1 of the Gospel trying to imply us to consider Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant: Jesus Christ?
 
Since the time of the reformation it has been well documented, by the Protestant Church, the identification of the false religion. The Catholic Church has been accused ever since Luthe’s Thesis of been the false doctrine the Bible speaks of. And what better Doctrine than Mariology to let the Bible guide us to the false doctrine.

Mariology is the central point of departure in traditional Catholics. In Latin America for example, the Doctrine of Mariology takes a big chunck of religious practices for Catholics. In fact, the last Pope, John Paul II, was a devoted Pope to the Doctrine of the Virgin Mary.

With the path of God as the Christian goal, is Luke in chapter 1 of the Gospel trying to imply us to consider Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant: Jesus Christ?
To be fair, the 95 theses were nothing even close to accusing the Catholic Church of being a false religion. It was merely a list of grievances and ideas for reform within the Church itself. Luther still identified himself as a staunch Catholic at this point.

His hostilty toward Catholicism grew as the Reformation really began accelerating.
 
Since the time of the reformation it has been well documented, by the Protestant Church, the identification of the false religion. The Catholic Church has been accused ever since Luthe’s Thesis of been the false doctrine the Bible speaks of. And what better Doctrine than Mariology to let the Bible guide us to the false doctrine.

Mariology is the central point of departure in traditional Catholics. In Latin America for example, the Doctrine of Mariology takes a big chunck of religious practices for Catholics. In fact, the last Pope, John Paul II, was a devoted Pope to the Doctrine of the Virgin Mary.

With the path of God as the Christian goal, is Luke in chapter 1 of the Gospel trying to imply us to consider Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant: Jesus Christ?
Connecting Luther/Lutherans to the idea that Mariology “is the central point of departure” is tenuous at best. Luther, Chemnitz, etc, all had strong Marian devotion, and Lutherans to this day do not condemn the Marian beliefs. Instead they are considered adiaphora.
What Lutherans do resist is the binding of the conscience of the believer to them, with the exception of the virgin birth, and Holy Theotokos.

As far as the Ark of the New Covenant , it isn’t something Lutherans spend much time pondering, to be honest. Certainly, I can see the analogy.

Jon
 
The submission to the BVM and the Holy Family has always existed in Christianity. What happens today is the Trinity being the main focus seems to give one the impression they do not have to have complete respect for the Holy Family or Saints.

Really I see the misunderstanding at this level.

God Bless, Gary
 
Thanks for the correction “Lutherans” the point I want to make is the fact that departing from Luther’s Thesis we could say that the big lie has been uncovered and what better subject than the Mariology Doctrine to test the Doctrine’s Bible foundation. Now is Luke chapter 1 talking about Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant: Jesus Christ?
 
Thanks for the correction “Lutherans” the point I want to make is the fact that departing from Luther’s Thesis we could say that the big lie has been uncovered and what better subject than the Mariology Doctrine to test the Doctrine’s Bible foundation. Now is Luke chapter 1 talking about Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant: Jesus Christ?
I am failing to understand where you are coming from. It is that you are tying together Luther’s Theses to Mariology Doctrine, to Luke, to the Big Lie. I cannot even begin to follow your line of questioning.

I can however say this. If one is convinced that the Catholic Church is a big life, then there is nothing that I or anyone else can say that will unconvince them. IT is the only by the grace of God and the working of the Holy Spirit that can illuminate them with the Gift of Faith. In this case perhaps the wiser thing to do is to pray for those who think the Church is a lie.

As to your question of Luke 1 what part of Luke 1. That chapter has got 80 verses. I found something that might be of interest and am posting it in a subsequent reply.

God bless.
 
This is taken from one of my commentaries.

This is referring to Luke 1.

Mary, Ark of the Covenant

Luke’s Gospel tells us more about the Mother of Jesus, than any other book in the NT. Most of this information is packed within his first two chapters, where Luke strings together some of the most beautiful traditions we have about her life and mission. The deeper we delve into LUke’s narrative, the more we appreciate the way in which Luke tells us the story of Mary. One example of this is found in the story of the Visitation. On one level, it ells of a joyous encounter between two expectant mothers; on another, it recalls memorable stories told in the OT about the Ark of the Covenant. By alluding to these ancient traditions, Luke expands the vision of the careful reader considerably. For he leads us to see Mary as the Ark of God’s New Convenant and implies that the sacred Ark of the Old Covenant merely prefigured a more wonderful Ark to come: The Mother of the divine Messiah.

One tradition that Luke draws upon is from 2 Samuel. He intentionally sets up the sublt but significant parallels between Mary’s Visitation with Elizabetn and David’s effort to bring the Ark of the Covenant to Jeruslaem narrated in 2 Sam 6. When Luke tells us that Mary “arose and went” into the Judean hill country to visit her inswomn [Luke 4:39], he reminds us of how David “arose and went” into the Judean hill country centuries earlier to retrieve the Ark [2 Sam 6:2] Upon Mary’s arrival, Elizabeth is struck by the same sense of awe and unworthiness before Mary [Luke 1:43] that David felt standing before the Ark of the Covenant - 2 Sam 6:9]. Parallels continue as the joy surrounding this great encounter causes the infant John to leap with excitement [Luke 1:41], much as David danced with excitement before the Ark 2 Sam 6:16]. Finally, Luke addsd that Mary stayed in the “house of Zechariah” for “three monthes” [Luke 1:40, 56], recalling how the Ark of Covenant was temporarily stationed in the “house of Obed-edom” for a waiting period of “three monthes” [2 Sam 6:11] Taken together, these parallels show us that Mary now assumes a role in salvation history that was once played by the Ark of the Covenant. LIke this golden chest, she is a sacred vessel where the Lord’s presence dwells intimately with his people.

Luke also draws upon a second tradition from the Books of Chronicles. This time he brings into his stoay a highly significant expression once connected with the Ark. The term shows up in Luke 1:42, where Elizabeth bursts out with an exuberant cry at the arrival of Mary and her CHild. Although the Greek very translated as “exlaimed” seems ordinary enough, it is hardly ever used in the Bible. IN fact, it is found only here in the entire NT. Its presence in the Greek OT is likewise sparse, appearing only five times. Why is this important? Because every time the expression is used in the OT, it forms part of the stories surrounding the Ark of the Covenant. In particular, it refers to the melodic sounds made by Levitical singers and musicians why they glorify the Lord in song. It thus describes the “exulting” voice of instruments that were played before the Ark as David carried it in procession to Jerusalem 1 Chron 15:28; 16:4-5] and as Solomon transferred the Ark to its final resting place in the Temple 2 Chron 5:13] Alluding to these episdoes, LUke connects this ame expression with the melodic cry of another Levitical descendant, the aged Elizabeth [Luke 1:5] She too lifts up her voice in liturgical praise, not before the golden chest, but before Mary. Luke’s remarkable familiarity with these ancient stories enables him to select even a single word that will whisper to his readers that this young Mother of the Messiah is the new Ark of the Covenant.

For the reader with eyes to see and ears to hear, Luke has given us a vision of the Birign Mary that becomes ever more glorious the deeper we dig into the Scriptures. Our ability to see Mary as he did depends in part on our knowledge of the OT and in part on our snesitivity to Luke’s skillful use of it. By choosing his words and phrases carefully, he is able to weave various strands of biblical tradition into his narrative, adding beauty and depth to this already elegant prose. Little wonder the Church’s liturgical and theological traditions have so often described Mary as the Ark of the New Convenant. This vision is not merely the fuirt of mystical speculation from a later age. It is already embedded within the Infancy Narrative of Luke’s Gospel.

I wanted to go and look up the answer before I answered your question. Yes it is referring to Mary as the Ark of the Covenant. The meaning is hidden but it is there nevertheless as the preceeding paragraphs point out.

God bless.

[ps. I am sorry if there are any mispelled words, its hard to type from a copy without looking at the scree sometimes.]
 
Frankly, Marian devotion has it’s roots in the conflict over the divinity of Christ. Those who opposed the concept of Christ’s divinity tended to see Saint Mary in less complimentary terms, probably an exaggeration.

Those whose supported Christ’s divinity tended to see Saint Mary in more complimentary terms, and probably exaggerated that aspect. Much of what we actually think we know about her does not come from Holy Scripture, but the proto-evangelion of James, which is largely pious fiction of a later date that has some facts and folk tales mixed in.

We praise Saint Mary because she was the Mother of Jesus Christ our Lord, and we ask for her prayers just like we ask for anyone’s prayers. But there can be a point where this singular devotion can become excessive, even scandalous and thereby divisive.

We should not then be surprised that people sometimes object.

One thing is clear to me, that if people did not know of or understand Saint Mary, but knew Jesus and faithfully followed Him, they would be ok.
 
Frankly, Marian devotion has it’s roots in the conflict over the divinity of Christ. Those who opposed the concept of Christ’s divinity tended to see Saint Mary in less complimentary terms, probably an exaggeration.

Those whose supported Christ’s divinity tended to see Saint Mary in more complimentary terms, and probably exaggerated that aspect. Much of what we actually think we know about her does not come from Holy Scripture, but the proto-evangelion of James, which is largely pious fiction of a later date that has some facts and folk tales mixed in.

We praise Saint Mary because she was the Mother of Jesus Christ our Lord, and we ask for her prayers just like we ask for anyone’s prayers. But there can be a point where this singular devotion can become excessive, even scandalous and thereby divisive.

We should not then be surprised that people sometimes object.

One thing is clear to me, that if people did not know of or understand Saint Mary, but knew Jesus and faithfully followed Him, they would be ok.
For sure! My advice to non Catholics is to have the utmost respect for the Lords Holy Family though.

Where one heads from there is their choice. I see a lack of respect not from the EO but many of the lower denominations of the Protestant. Very unwise to judge Gods Family.

I also don’t belive our individual prayers coincide with the intercession of the BVM. Mary has interceeded for mankind since the Anniunciation, Wedding of Cana etc. Her reality is still apparent. The combined prayer to Her by the millions to the Trinity without a doubt makes an impact.

God Bless, Gary
 
Frankly, Marian devotion has it’s roots in the conflict over the divinity of Christ. Those who opposed the concept of Christ’s divinity tended to see Saint Mary in less complimentary terms, probably an exaggeration.

Those whose supported Christ’s divinity tended to see Saint Mary in more complimentary terms, and probably exaggerated that aspect. Much of what we actually think we know about her does not come from Holy Scripture, but the proto-evangelion of James, which is largely pious fiction of a later date that has some facts and folk tales mixed in.

We praise Saint Mary because she was the Mother of Jesus Christ our Lord, and we ask for her prayers just like we ask for anyone’s prayers. But there can be a point where this singular devotion can become excessive, even scandalous and thereby divisive.

We should not then be surprised that people sometimes object.

One thing is clear to me, that if people did not know of or understand Saint Mary, but knew Jesus and faithfully followed Him, they would be ok.
Protestants do whole Mary in high regard. There is uneasiness when there are prayers like ‘Holy Mary, save us!’ or hear things like that Mary in some way redeemed us, greeting people with ‘Ave Maria’ instead of ‘the peace of the Lord be with you.’

This makes Protestants really nervous.
 
Protestants do whole Mary in high regard. There is uneasiness when there are prayers like ‘Holy Mary, save us!’ or hear things like that Mary in some way redeemed us, greeting people with ‘Ave Maria’ instead of ‘the peace of the Lord be with you.’

This makes Protestants really nervous.
I agree. To a point, you can really call it fear. We do not want to step outside of the boundaries of what may or may not be sin. Many Protestants are quite cautious of this thus the Bible sans Apocrypha is what we use.

As FabiusMaximus has stated, we do hold Mary in high regard. Most Protestants think of Mary as a blessed figure who had sinned. We do not think less of her for this for “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God”. It is never meant to be an insult.

Still, the Catholic’s take on Mary does make some of us curious. That’s why we are on this forum.🙂
 
GRAY TAYLOR, my deepest sense of respect for your research. I would appreciate any links to enhance my research. Thanks for the lecture I’ll sure keep tract of your work.
 
In history just looking at the countrys converted such as Mexico has to be weighed

The conversion in Portugal without war touching its borders.

The total withdrawal of Communist Russia from Austria on May 13th 1955.

Poland and Our Ladys intercession their.

Hard to overlook all the History.👍

God Bless, Gary
 
Protestants do whole Mary in high regard. There is uneasiness when there are prayers like ‘Holy Mary, save us!’ or hear things like that Mary in some way redeemed us, greeting people with ‘Ave Maria’ instead of ‘the peace of the Lord be with you.’

This makes Protestants really nervous.
Understood.

As to the “Save Us!” acclamation, we Orthodox use it too, but it has to be understood in the proper sense. Saint Mary has no ability to save us herself, nor does any one person, sainted or not. We are all instruments in the hands of God, herself included.

But if, as in a hymn we say “Save us who sing to you” we are of course asking for her prayers, which we fully well believe she can make for us as much as you can pray for me and I for you. The dead are not really ‘dead and gone’, we take the afterlife and the coming resurrection very seriously and this asking for prayers is an expression of that overriding faith.

If I am caught in a raging flood and I call out for help, I will likely yell “save me” but I wouldn’t expect you to jump in after me (although it would be an option 😉 ). Calling 911 might be the proper approach given your limited ability, and for us we may ask Saint Mary of Nazareth to call 911 for our souls, and leave God to do the heavy lifting.

Yet most of our liturgical prayers in one form or another are directly to God. We sing His praises ( as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit) and also ask His mercy upon us and to look upon us with His favor. The texts of the liturgical litanies directed toward God Himself are very moving, a solid expression of our common hope.

http://www.iconsexplained.com/iec/rit/03103_virgin_glykophilousa.jpg
 
\Which hymn is that?
It generally takes the place of the antiphons at the Divine Liturgy on Feasts. It’s the refrain, if you will. I’ve also heard it in Paschal hymns as well. Of course, I suppose it depends on the typika the parish/diocese/church uses.

In Christ,
Andrew
 
As FabiusMaximus has stated, we do hold Mary in high regard. Most Protestants think of Mary as a blessed figure who had sinned. We do not think less of her for this for “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God”. It is never meant to be an insult.
what the heck? Now tell me please where Mother Mary sinned?!
 
It generally takes the place of the antiphons at the Divine Liturgy on Feasts. It’s the refrain, if you will. I’ve also heard it in Paschal hymns as well. Of course, I suppose it depends on the typika the parish/diocese/church uses.
I don’t think so.
It was just a hypothetical, for purposes of discussion.
Not just hypothetical, an innovation! :eek:
 
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