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dvdjs
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I am absolutely certain that she did not sin “just like me”.
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GaryTaylor
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How do you know she sinned? What page is that on in the Bible? The part I read sounded like God seriuosly liked Mary. Luke I believe its called. If He had that kind of respect for Her so do I.Mary was human and not Divine. She sinned just like us. Show me in Scripture that she was sinless.
God Bless, Gary
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DElias
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God seriously liked Moses too, but we know how that ended.
The Bible does state that “all have sinned”. It goes back to Protestants being cautious. You ask for a Biblical proof. The burden should fall to those who claim she was perfect. Take this analogy. A person has a tree branch that they claim has magical powers. Another person would likely ask that person to prove it. If the person with the tree branch told the other to prove it didn’t, would that really make sense? No tree branch that I have ever encountered had magical powers. You work under the assumption that it would be like others without any extraordinary features.
We assume that Mary, as a mortal person, was like others in regards to temptation and sin. Many Protestants come here curious and, at times, eager to learn. Should not the burden be on you?
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FabiusMaximus
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Because she was a person like you and I, and despite the fact she bore our Lord and Savior, Evangelicals believe that she was not sinless. Evangelicals generally do not question how Mary could have borne Jesus if she didn’t sin, it is simply assumed that God can do anything. Additionally, no scripture seems to support the belief that she sinless.
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LilyM
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God did not ‘seriously like’ Moses nearly enough to make Moses the mother of His only-begotten son, though!
The favour granted to Mary, the trust God placed in her, in His act of choosing her to take on the monumental task of being His mother, was far above and beyond anything that any other human has experienced.
It only stands to reason that she too must have been far above and beyond any other human in character and worth. There have been some pretty amazing, darn-near-sinless, women out there over the centuries, after all. Remember God had the luxury of choosing His own mother - why would He not choose the very best? And the very best must surely have been sinless.
The implication in your posts is that the task of bearing and raising Jesus that Mary undertook was something so easy and undemanding, not to mention unimportant, that it could have been done by ‘just any ol’ sinner’.
To say she sinned ‘just like you’ is to say ‘hey, you too could have been His mother. Or I could have, or anyone could have - come on, how difficult could it be?’ On the contrary, being His mother must have been supremely difficult, supremely demanding, and supremely important. Definitely not a job that just anyone could have done - not nearly.
So much so in fact that there is no way it could NOT have necessitated someone so different from the rest of humanity that she would in fact have had to be free of sin to be capable of the task. Not divine, true, but certainly not your common or garden variety sinful human.
And I think rather that the burden is on you to show otherwise, since you cheerfully assert that Mary was so much like you and I. I suppose you think you think any ol’ gal on the street could not only have done her job, but done it just as well, if not better?
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GaryTaylor
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God couldn’t be born in a Human Nature with “Sin”, “born of a Virgin”. Thus we “kmow” at this point Mary was without stain. Did Jesus Christ have sin? Then where after the Birth does Mary fall short. That verse in non existant and to assume this is founded on zero facts and Sola Scriptura interpretation of the Bible by man. The prophecy of Isaiah fulfilled in Luke and confirmed by God.
God Bless, Gary
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DElias
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No, the burden truly is on you. My previous post far surpassed what was needed to substantiate this. God used many people from many backgrounds to do His will on earth. To say that bearing the Lord is proof that she was sinless is an unbelievable fallacy in reasoning. I am, without exaggeration, truly stunned anytime I see someone attempting to make this argument.
What I and others stated with Mary is merely presenting the view of Protestants as that is where the thread was leading. At no point did we look to argue whether Mary was sinless or not. That is actually on another thread.
Once again, most Protestants are on here to learn the other side of things. What is said is not meant to be taken as an insult.
What I and others stated with Mary is merely presenting the view of Protestants as that is where the thread was leading. At no point did we look to argue whether Mary was sinless or not. That is actually on another thread.
Once again, most Protestants are on here to learn the other side of things. What is said is not meant to be taken as an insult.
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DElias
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This is an argument that I haven’t seen presented. Why does the Catholic Church feel that Jesus could not have been born to a person who had sinned?God couldn’t be born in a Human Nature with “Sin”, “born of a Virgin”. Thus we “kmow” at this point Mary was without stain. Did Jesus Christ have sin? Then where after the Birth does Mary fall short. That verse in non existant and to assume this is founded on zero facts and Sola Scriptura interpretation of the Bible by man. The prophecy of Isaiah fulfilled in Luke and confirmed by God.
God Bless, Gary
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GaryTaylor
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How could you be of Human Nature born into sin and not have sin? The purity of the OT with the ARK shows that God came to us in purity. And since he did, and he did with Mary also, we have no reason to assume anything else with Mary.
God Bless, Gary
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DElias
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Not to complicate things too much, but what about the idea that original sin made man inherently predisposed to sin and not actually sinful? There is the argument that the doom brought by Adam and Eve is the predisposition itself that no one but Jesus could overcome.
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GaryTaylor
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Well Adam and Eve put to rest the everyone was born of sin theory first.
The Human Nature combined with the Divine Nature of Christ shows that Christ was all Human and all Divine. Hypostotic Union its called. if you want to read on it.
This concludes the belief that Mary wasn’t just a pipe or vessel that Jesus passed though without touching humanity. Had that been the case then the entire purpose of the Cross would lack logic. He was actually born fully Human in Birth and fully Divine. The Human aspect comes from Mary and She cannot have sin, or Jesus Christ would have been born into sin.
Mary was preserved of this by God. Of couse one could debate if Mary had venial sins after the birth of Christ etc. But we don’t know that nor would anything indicate it. Scripture indicates she was covered by Gods hand after the birth also. Flight to Egypt, the Presentation etc.
Through Marys obedience Eves disobedience was corrected. Makes pretty good sense to me since not only does Christ redeem man. Mary thus corrects through humility, submission and devotion to God the error of Eve.
You haven’t read the Incarnation? Basic Christian belief.
The most widely-accepted definitions of the Incarnation and the nature of Jesus were made by the State church of the Roman Empire at the First Council of Nicaea in 325, the Council of Ephesus in 431, and the Council of Chalcedon in 451. These councils declared that Jesus was both fully God: begotten from, but not created by the Father; and fully man: taking his flesh and human nature from the Virgin Mary. These two natures, human and divine, were hypostatically united into the one personhood of Jesus Christ.
God Bless, Gary
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DElias
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Thank you, Gary. I will look into your references.
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hn160
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Mary was born with original sin, just like the rest of us, Christ was born sinless because of His divine nature, His human nature was assumed from the Blessed Virgin Mary but He was sinless. This is what we call the Personal Union of Christ ( True God and True Man ). Virgin Mary is the Mother of God.
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MartinJordan
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Er, didn’t Luther say this?Mary was born with original sin, just like the rest of us, Christ was born sinless because of His divine nature, His human nature was assumed from the Blessed Virgin Mary but He was sinless. This is what we call the Personal Union of Christ ( True God and True Man ). Virgin Mary is the Mother of God.
Edit: Apparently Luther changed his mind:shrug:
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LilyM
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And I am, without exaggeration, truly stunned that you would compare any other human achievement throughout history, by anyone whatsoever, however much prompted and protected by God they were, to what was achieved by Mary.
As our Orthodox brothers so beautifully put it “He whom the heavens and the earth cannot contain was contained in your womb” How can such a feat not require that extraordinary graces, graces well beyond those given to Moses, Elijah or anyone, be given to her? And what more and extraordinary graces COULD possibly be given to her but that she be sinless?
I don’t take it as an insult, I just find it a very limited and odd way of thinking. When we were children, my sister solemnly assured me that our father’s age must be ten, because that was the highest number she could count to. She simply couldn’t conceive of the existence of bigger numbers.
So, it seems, some people cannot conceive of a human task or an achievement greater than the great still very limited heroics of a Moses, an Elijah or a King David. What a sad misunderstanding of the Incarnation
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DElias
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Again, the fallacy in your reasoning is truly staggering. I am also speaking as someone who is accomplished in rhetorical and argumentative studies. The foundation in your argument is completely void. No where in your argument is there any shred of reasoning as to why Mary would be sinless.
As from Gary Taylor, there is something provided.
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nordskoven
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Uh, Dr. Martin Luther, ex-Catholic and priest forever, was ga-ga over the Blessed Virgin Mary. Check out Genesis 3:15, God’s curse of Lucifer and his minions with the Woman & Seed. Then check out Apocalypse 12, the Woman clothed with the Sun who gives birth to the Divine Child; and her “other children.” This is war, and the Woman, fulfilled in the Blessed Virgin Mary, is the source of lineage of power and authority to conquer Satan and his seed. So who’s your mama? Marian devotion may look extreme, but non-Catholics are generally unaware of the adoration of Christ going on 24 hours a day in the Eucharistic Adoration. You get up at 3:00 in the morning during a snowstorm and make an hour of adoration in a frosty chapel. Good for you. Or 6:30 a.m. daily Mass. Dash yourself against some other Rock. This one isn’t moving. Get your Bible out and read Genesis 3:15 and John’s Apocalypse 12 and thank God Jesus Christ gave you a sure guide in His Church. RCIA class is free and there is no obligation to join. Stop sniping at Jesus’ system, OK? Bad idea.
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hn160
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What is your source?
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nordskoven
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One may sin against Abba, and Jesus Christ, and be forgiven. Sin against the Holy Spirit and that is unforgivable. The Virgin Mary was, with the words of the Angel Gabriel, married to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit tolerates no sin. Adam and the Woman, created sinless, could have stayed sinless. The Virgin Mary, spouse of the Holy Spirit, was by God’s grace also created sinless and worthy to be wed to the Holy Spirit. Why are you so mad at God? God’s ways are not man’s ways. And you cannot argue with ANYONE because in your system EVERYBODY is right. Sheep misguiding other sheep. The Good Shepherd, Jesus Christ, breathed the Holy Spirit on the apostles, giving them divine power and authority to forgive sins. Now I’m sinless. Wanna go there?!? Did Jesus lie?
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DElias
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sigh The issue is how the argument was presented by someone who was sniping at those on the other side from the start. If she wanted to get testy with us, then she should have provided a reasonable argument. Obviously, you failed to grasp this. I can not help you there.
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