The Big Lie

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Er, didn’t Luther say this?

Edit: Apparently Luther changed his mind:shrug:

MJ
Luther did at one point consider Mary as being sinless but later changed his mind:
Devotion to Mary was modified by the Luth. Reformation.* For many yrs. M. Luther* held that Mary had been conceived without sin (WA 4, 559; 17 II, 409; 31 II, 689). But later he held that it was at Christ’s conception that she was totally purged of sin (WA 39 II, 107). He held that she remained a virgin in childbirth (WA 40 Illinois, 680) and for the rest of her life (WA 48, 579). Throughout his life Luther insisted that she is the mother of God (WA 7, 545: 36, 60; 10 II, 407). In 1522 he urged that one pray the Ave Maria but omitted “Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death” (WA 10 II, 407–409). For Luther, Mary was “queen of Heaven,” but he warns against making that name say too much (WA 7, 573).
 
To all,

I have been reading this thread and have come to this conclusion. Either you believe with Faith and submit to the Revealed Truth that has been handed down through Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition or you do not.

Either the Catholic Church is right when it says that Mary is conceived without orginal sin or else it is wrong. Either the Catholic Church is wrong when it shows honor to Mary because of the many graces that were in her life or either they are wrong.

Arguments can be handed down and argued, but what matters is the truth and one’s repsonse to the truth. Am I open to follow and believe the truth no matter what that may entail - [ex. leaving my comfort zone or leaving my old beliefs systems to embrace something new] to wherever it may lead me.

The Dogmas that regard Mary are stated quite succintly in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma. They are stated throughout Church Tradition. They only began to be questioned shortly after the Reformation. Perhaps the questions to be asking here, is why the Reformers began to question something to be true that had been accepted as true for the past [oh darn may have this date wrong] 1500 years.

I have to say that I have learned alot and I am seeing a lot of things that I used to believe in as a former Protestant. I am thankful that God has called me into the Fullness of Truth, and am so happy that Mary is a part of the Faith.

Gary it was refreshing to read your posts, thank you.

God bless you guys.
 
Luther did at one point consider Mary as being sinless but later changed his mind:
Devotion to Mary was modified by the Luth. Reformation.* For many yrs. M. Luther* held that Mary had been conceived without sin (WA 4, 559; 17 II, 409; 31 II, 689). But later he held that it was at Christ’s conception that she was totally purged of sin (WA 39 II, 107). He held that she remained a virgin in childbirth (WA 40 Illinois, 680) and for the rest of her life (WA 48, 579). Throughout his life Luther insisted that she is the mother of God (WA 7, 545: 36, 60; 10 II, 407). In 1522 he urged that one pray the Ave Maria but omitted “Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death” (WA 10 II, 407–409). For Luther, Mary was “queen of Heaven,” but he warns against making that name say too much (WA 7, 573).
So first he changes his mind about original sin, then removes “Pray for us sinners” and then warns against that name saying too much.

I think if he continued to live, he may have eventually decided to change even more Church teachings 😉

MJ
 
Mary was born with original sin, just like the rest of us, Christ was born sinless because of His divine nature, His human nature was assumed from the Blessed Virgin Mary but He was sinless. This is what we call the Personal Union of Christ ( True God and True Man ). Virgin Mary is the Mother of God.:signofcross:
Logically explain to us how this is possible?

A Lutheran that dosen’t agree with Luther.?



There are many points which obviously can be debated. Yet what we can’t remove from the equation is the fact GOD chose Mary above all. Sent His personal messanger to tell Her how He felt and Ask Her through Her free will to bear HImself.

I guess what glares in my face with Luke is there is a extreme amount of Respect for Mary by God. After the Cross and the establishment of the Church. I would “assume” the respect She earned is very significant.

More important I do believe while you may be Christ orientated in worship? Its just the right thinking to have total respect for the Holy Family. I believe any other thinking is a grave error.

In light of the mystics who came along through the years and left a written testimony of the Miracles through the centurys. Most significant is the Converstion of Mexico?

Catholic Missionarys were there a decade and could not convert the Aztecs. Mary appears to a this Soul Juan Diago and for 10-years straight Catholic Baptized morning through night? Recorded History directly related to and appearence of Mary. And it just continues in “Historic” fact with Austria and Portugal etc.

Scientific aspect is they do not even know what the Tilma Mary left in Mexico is. Its of material unknown on Earth. Stone cold miracles hwich can’t be explain. Miracle of Sn predicted in advance and Confirmed by GOD which defied all the Laws of Nature? Only GOD can do that.

I speak to a couple Baptist ministers who are close friends of mine pretty regular. The thinking is changing in this day and age. There is no cynical talk anymore of denomination. We are all in ageement its pretty much time to put that to bed. We have major issues which confront us.

What becomes apparent when I sit and talk to the same ministers who I grew up with as kids, we are all pretty much on the same page.

We believe we lost a few generations and we can’t afford to lose anymore, nor can we raise them with bias, unfounded predjudice instilled in their personality as a learned bahavior. Its wrong and a path that leads to more issues. What we don’t know in Gods world we have no reason to reduce to insignificant just cause we can.

Those who are Baptist have heard of the great falling away. We are all convinced we have reached a time in History to heal or we will go into bondage at some point. We cannot continue this path.

What have we done great for God in the USA? Trust me this period we are in is a Blessing from God to a brand new country. Its time to stop taking it for granted and understand who exactly is in charge. And we are living by His will and Mercy by the moment. Not as denominations, but as Children of God.

God Bless, Gary
 
I have to agree that Luther’s understanding of Marian doctrine did change significantly throughout his life (there is abundant material on this on the internet you can google) making it problematic to attempt a response to protestant views of Mary based on one man’s writings and I’d like to add a couple of things from the Lutheran perspective.
  1. We must first understand that the term “Lutheran” does not mean someone who follows everything that Luther ever said. After all, he said some nasty things about Jews toward the end of his life and his theology was in a state of constant revision as he came to be more and more bound to the notion of sola scriptura. Similarly, Catholics also do not take to heart everything that every Pope has ever said or preached if not spoken ex cathedra–otherwise it would be really easy to justify many of the horrors of european history.
  2. “Lutheranism” came into being as the result of the combined efforts of many many theologians throughout the centuries–and even during Luther’s lifetime (see Melancthon, Bugenhagen, Bucer, etc.). Luther was not the single authority upon which all Lutheran belief is based. So when a Lutheran or Protestant is suspicious of sundry Marian doctrines, s/he is within his right to do so because of the apparent lack of direct scriptural evidence (being that sola scriptura is what unites protestants), regardless of individual quotes one might be able to find from Herr Luther.
  3. We also have to consider that God’s protection of Mary from Original Sin (meaning propensity to sin) may be completely different from him protecting her from actual sin (particular, individual sins). I can’t find the reference right now, but I recall reading a sermon of Luther’s where he makes just this distinction, which might help to explain why Lutherans still understand Mary as being “full of grace”, but not without original sin.
I don’t think Lutherans should have had a problem with someone believing in the *actual *sinlessness of Mary as it would be considered Adiaphora–tradition which is acceptable to believe and does not contradict the Bible, but it is not supported by scripture either in a clear-cut way (the crux of this question depends on what “grace” means in the context of the annunciation). Therefore, salvation does not depend on holding this belief. It is the matter of Mary being without *Original *Sin which is problematic for Lutherans.

That said, Lutherans hold great respect for Mary and are often encouraged to pray the pre-trent Hail Mary, so this should not be mistaken by Roman Catholics as a lack of veneration for the Mother of God.
 
That said,…pre-trent Hail Mary, so this should not be mistaken by Roman Catholics as a lack of veneration for the Mother of God.
If you have a copy, could you please share the version of the pre-Trent Hail Mary?

Thank You!
 
There it is, the idea is to get on the same page in submission/reverence to God and His Holy Family.

There are a couple logical philosophys which could have happened.

But what couldn’t have happened is Jesus born of the BVM is a state of sin. To put it bluntly thats heresy and contrary to Christian belief. Just through the Incarnate which I posted above.

Anyway we shall work towards a better understanding.

God Bless, Gary
 
But what couldn’t have happened is Jesus born of the BVM is a state of sin. To put it bluntly thats heresy and contrary to Christian belief.
I don’t know that it couldn’t have happened. I am not saying that this is what I think, but I am open to the possibility that God could have been born of a woman in sin.

He did become incarnate, after all, taking on the human form and otherwise all aspects of humanity … and He is God so He can do what He wants.
 
Well it would be in constrast to the Incarnate in early ecumenical councils.

Yet being there are a few options its a debatable issue for sure. I lean toward the idea the the Virgin was predicted by Isaiah. Then came to pass. Why would Jesus be born of a Virgin if the purpose was to cleanse the soul at the very minute of Christs conception?

Thats a proposed thought which in my opinion lacks logic.

Consecrated Souls of God, no different than the ones who come along today.

The question of Christ being on earth with sin, defeats the redemption for mans sins on the Cross? With a human Nature he certainly was subjected to same temptation as you and I.

Which just of the top of my head flashs the temptation of Chirst. All the Kingdoms of the world He was offered?

God is incapable of sinning. It is against His very nature (Matthew 4:1; Hebrews 2:18, 4:15; James 1:13). Sin is by definition a trespass of the Law. God created the Law, and the Law is by nature what God would or would not do; therefore, sin is anything that God would not do by His very nature.

Blessings, Gary
 
Hesychios: a link to the Lutheran Rosary–

giftsofaith.com/Files/lutheranrosary.pdf

The pre-Trent Hail Mary omits the invocation of Mary’s prayer, so essentially it cuts off “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.”
The version I know goes like so …

Theotokos Virgin rejoice, Mary full of grace, for the Lord is with you!

Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, for you have borne the Saviour of our souls.

🙂
 
For Mary to be born with Original Sin or to have sinned in her life is a dangerous heresy. It would mean that Christ, instead of being the Savior of Mary (to preserve her from sin) would instead be His own Savior, and saving Himself (from sin or purging His flesh of sin). This would mean He was not fully God if He needed saving. The sinlessness and Immaculate Conception of Mary is vital to Christianity.
 
If you have a copy, could you please share the version of the pre-Trent Hail Mary?

Thank You!
If I may chime in, this is Luther’s Prayer Book:

The Hail Mary29
Take note of this: no one should put his trust or confidence in the Mother of God or in her merits, for such trust is worthy of God alone and is the lofty service due only to him. Rather praise and thank God through Mary and the grace given her. Laud and love her simply as the one who, without merit, obtained such blessings from God, sheerly out of his mercy, as she herself testifies in the Magnificat [Luke 1:46–55].
It is very much the same when I am moved by a view of the heavens, the sun, and all creation to exalt him who created everything, bringing all this into my prayer and praise, saying: O God, Author of such a beautiful and perfect creation, grant to me.… Similarly, our prayer should include the Mother of God as we say: O God, what a noble person you have created in her! May she be blessed! And so on. And you who honored her so highly, grant also to me.…
Let not our hearts cleave to her, but through her penetrate to Christ and to God himself. Thus what the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: “Hail, Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee [Luke 1:28]; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen.”
You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor. Similarly there is no petition in the first words of the Lord’s Prayer but rather praise and glorification that God is our Father and that he is in heaven. Therefore we should make the Hail Mary neither a prayer nor an invocation because it is improper to interpret the words beyond what they mean in themselves and beyond the meaning given them by the Holy Spirit.
But there are two things we can do. First, we can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her [as one blessed by God].
In the first place, she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin—something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.
In the second place, God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her.
In the third place, she is blessed above all other women, not only because she gave birth without labor, pain, and injury to herself, not as Eve and all other women, but because by the Holy Spirit and without sin, she became fertile, conceived, and gave birth in a way granted to no other woman.
In the fourth place, her giving birth is blessed in that it was spared the curse upon all children of Eve who are conceived in sin [Ps. 51:5] and born to deserve death and damnation. Only the fruit of her body is blessed, and through this birth we are all blessed.
Furthermore, a prayer or wish is to be added—our prayer for all who speak evil against this Fruit and the Mother. But who is it that speaks evil of this Fruit and the Mother? Any who persecute and speak evil against his work, the gospel, and the Christian faith, as Jews and papists are now doing.
The conclusion of this is that in the present no one speaks evil of this Mother and her Fruit as much as those who bless her with many rosaries and constantly mouth the Hail Mary. These, more than any others, speak evil against Christ’s word and faith in the worst way.
Therefore, notice that this Mother and her Fruit are blessed in a twofold way—bodily and spiritually. Bodily with lips and the words of the Hail Mary; such persons blaspheme and speak evil of her most dangerously. And spiritually [one blesses her] in one’s heart by praise and benediction for her child, Christ—for all his words, deeds, and sufferings. And no one does this except he who has the true Christian faith because without such faith no heart is good but is by nature stuffed full of evil speech and blasphemy against God and all his saints. For that reason he who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Haft Mary and all other prayers because to such a person the words apply: Let his prayer be sin [Ps. 109:7].
Luther, Martin: Pelikan, Jaroslav Jan (Hrsg.) ; Oswald, Hilton C. (Hrsg.) ; Lehmann, Helmut T. (Hrsg.): Luther’s Works, Vol. 43 : Devotional Writings II. Philadelphia : Fortress Press, 1999, c1968 (Luther’s Works 43), S. 43:39-41
 
If I may chime in, this is Luther’s Prayer Book:

The Hail Mary29
Take note of this: no one should put his trust or confidence in the Mother of God or in her merits, for such trust is worthy of God alone and is the lofty service due only to him. Rather praise and thank God through Mary and the grace given her. Laud and love her simply as the one who, without merit, obtained such blessings from God, sheerly out of his mercy, as she herself testifies in the Magnificat [Luke 1:46–55].
It is very much the same when I am moved by a view of the heavens, the sun, and all creation to exalt him who created everything, bringing all this into my prayer and praise, saying: O God, Author of such a beautiful and perfect creation, grant to me.… Similarly, our prayer should include the Mother of God as we say: O God, what a noble person you have created in her! May she be blessed! And so on. And you who honored her so highly, grant also to me.…
Let not our hearts cleave to her, but through her penetrate to Christ and to God himself. Thus what the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: “Hail, Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee [Luke 1:28]; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen.”
You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor. Similarly there is no petition in the first words of the Lord’s Prayer but rather praise and glorification that God is our Father and that he is in heaven. Therefore we should make the Hail Mary neither a prayer nor an invocation because it is improper to interpret the words beyond what they mean in themselves and beyond the meaning given them by the Holy Spirit.
But there are two things we can do. First, we can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her [as one blessed by God].
In the first place, she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin—something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.
In the second place, God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her.
In the third place, she is blessed above all other women, not only because she gave birth without labor, pain, and injury to herself, not as Eve and all other women, but because by the Holy Spirit and without sin, she became fertile, conceived, and gave birth in a way granted to no other woman.
In the fourth place, her giving birth is blessed in that it was spared the curse upon all children of Eve who are conceived in sin [Ps. 51:5] and born to deserve death and damnation. Only the fruit of her body is blessed, and through this birth we are all blessed.
Furthermore, a prayer or wish is to be added—our prayer for all who speak evil against this Fruit and the Mother. But who is it that speaks evil of this Fruit and the Mother? Any who persecute and speak evil against his work, the gospel, and the Christian faith, as Jews and papists are now doing.
The conclusion of this is that in the present no one speaks evil of this Mother and her Fruit as much as those who bless her with many rosaries and constantly mouth the Hail Mary. These, more than any others, speak evil against Christ’s word and faith in the worst way.
Therefore, notice that this Mother and her Fruit are blessed in a twofold way—bodily and spiritually. Bodily with lips and the words of the Hail Mary; such persons blaspheme and speak evil of her most dangerously. And spiritually [one blesses her] in one’s heart by praise and benediction for her child, Christ—for all his words, deeds, and sufferings. And no one does this except he who has the true Christian faith because without such faith no heart is good but is by nature stuffed full of evil speech and blasphemy against God and all his saints. For that reason he who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Haft Mary and all other prayers because to such a person the words apply: Let his prayer be sin [Ps. 109:7].
Luther, Martin: Pelikan, Jaroslav Jan (Hrsg.) ; Oswald, Hilton C. (Hrsg.) ; Lehmann, Helmut T. (Hrsg.): Luther’s Works, Vol. 43 : Devotional Writings II. Philadelphia : Fortress Press, 1999, c1968 (Luther’s Works 43), S. 43:39-41
This is actually quite thought-provoking. In attempting to learn other areas of Christianity, the most difficult concept that I have personally encountered is the level at which Mary is sometimes placed. Someone once mentioned that Mary redeemed women while Jesus redeemed men. I’m not certain if that is truly a Catholic stance, but I was a little shocked to hear that. This gives a well-written argument for the other side while allowing for respect for a beloved Biblical figure.
 
Much of what we actually think we know about her does not come from Holy Scripture, but the proto-evangelion of James, which is largely pious fiction of a later date that has some facts and folk tales mixed in.
But what we do know of her from Sacred Scripture is this: That she is the daughter of God the Father, the spouse of the God the Holy Spirit, and the mother of God the Son. No one else on the face of the planet, from the beginning of time to the end of time will have this relationship with God. As the only person with this degree of intimacy with God, she is deserving of the highest honor a human being can possess. What else do we need to know?
 
The version I know goes like so …

Theotokos Virgin rejoice, Mary full of grace, for the Lord is with you!

Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, for you have borne the Saviour of our souls.

🙂
WOW. That is beautiful. I have a question would it be wrong if I prayed some of those sentences with the Hail Mary customarily prayed with the Rosary?

Thanks for sharing that.

God bless.
 
For Mary to be born with Original Sin or to have sinned in her life is a dangerous heresy. It would mean that Christ, instead of being the Savior of Mary (to preserve her from sin) would instead be His own Savior, and saving Himself (from sin or purging His flesh of sin). This would mean He was not fully God if He needed saving. The sinlessness and Immaculate Conception of Mary is vital to Christianity.
huh? :confused:
 
But what we do know of her from Sacred Scripture is this: That she is the daughter of God the Father, the spouse of the God the Holy Spirit, and the mother of God the Son. No one else on the face of the planet, from the beginning of time to the end of time will have this relationship with God. As the only person with this degree of intimacy with God, she is deserving of the highest honor a human being can possess. What else do we need to know?
Thats were my logic brings me Steve.

God Bless, Gary
 
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