The Big Lie

[guanophore]

I agree. To a point, you can really call it fear. We do not want to step outside of the boundaries of what may or may not be sin.

This is commendable, and is, of course, the reason that Jesus appointed an infallible Teaching Authority through which He guides His flock into “all Truth”, just as He promised. The gates of hell do not prevail against us precisely because it has been revealed by Him to the Church where the boundaries lie, and through that Church, dispenses the graces to walk accordingly.

 

[guanophore]

There is an entire thread behind this where this has been addressed.

Yeah, we do that a lot around here.

 

[guanophore]

I have heard Catholics say that Mary is as great as God and that straw from Catholic nativity scenes have magic powers (literally). I assure you, it was said.

Ok, I will try to say that better. When you said someone on here said it, I did not believe it because the Catholics that frequent CAF tend to be more informed about their faith than the average pew warmer.

I will certainly concede that there are many people that misunderstand the Catholic faith, are superstitious, believe lies, or misinformation, etc. If you hear things like this, please challenge them to provide an authorative reference from the Scriptures, the Catechism, or another reliable Catholic source. Since the idea is not Catholic, they will not be able to do so.

God does work miracles through inanimate objects, and it may appear to the observer as if it were “magic”. Simon Mangus thought that Peter was exercising magical powers because of the miracles, and wanted to buy the “power”. Peter straightened him out.

Near where I live is the Sanctuario de Chimayo, that has a well of blessed sand. Many miracles have occurred when pilgrims travel there to pray. The walls of the shrine are lined with crutches and other aids that were no longer needed by the persons that came and touched the sand.

There is also the Shrine of St. Bernadette in Albuquerque which also produces the same results, but with water.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Jesus knew that, once He revealed Himself to the public, that it would be a straight shot to the cross. He was gracious enough to allow His mother to accept this loss of Him. Their lives would never be the same, and though she may not have seen herself at the foot of the cross a mere three years down the road, she knew that a sword would pierce her heart somehow. He allowed her to choose the hour when she would release Him, and herself, to the inevitable.

Who knows how many private miracles He did for her before that day, that she was able to say with such confidence “do whatever He tells you”. She knew that the solution was already there, and that He would act. And for such a mundane a matter as not enough wine? This miracle was over a luxury! No one is ruined if the wine runs out. Yet, He refuses her nothing.

First miracle…that started a chain of events that bought about the Redemption of Mankind. The more you view it the more profound it is.

God Bless, Gary

 

[guanophore]

It would be how one would define reverence. When the thread branched into this latest area of disagreement, it was regarding the discomfort of Protestants of Mary’s position within Catholicism. I would never wish to speak disrespectfully of Mary due to her role. Catholics revere her, and it is understandable. When it comes to references of being Queen of the World and for her to pray for sinners, there is quite a bit to ponder.

Actually her Queenship is also in heaven, as her Son reigns over all. It is difficult for people to grasp this who are not familiar with the role of the gebirah in the Davidic Kingdom.

Do you think that she is less able to pray for sinners than you are?

 

[SteveVH]

Near where I live is the Sanctuario de Chimayo, that has a well of blessed sand. Many miracles have occurred when pilgrims travel there to pray. The walls of the shrine are lined with crutches and other aids that were no longer needed by the persons that came and touched the sand.

There is also the Shrine of St. Bernadette in Albuquerque which also produces the same results, but with water.

I also live near the Sanctuario de Chimayo ( a couple of hours anyway) and have a friend who was cured of a disease in his tear ducts. Not real dramatic, but a miracle nonetheless. The doctors have no explanation. I still have some of the sand in a bottle at home.

 

[guanophore]

I also live near the Sanctuario de Chimayo ( a couple of hours anyway) and have a friend who was cured of a disease in his tear ducts. Not real dramatic, but a miracle nonetheless. The doctors have no explanation. I still have some of the sand in a bottle at home.

Well, bring it to a sick person so they can touch it!

 

[placido]

I have heard Catholics say that Mary is as great as God and that straw from Catholic nativity scenes have magic powers (literally). I assure you, it was said.

I know why you have to rely on what some nameless “Catholics” say: it is your “clever” way to avoid what the Church teaches officially.
But, seriously, you know that that is not what the Catholic Church teaches, don’t you?

 

[placido]

No, we are just uncomfortable with sin, thus the caution.

Are you of the opinion that the Deuterocanon is “sin” (or that it leads to sin)? How?

 

[elvisman]

This is kind of like saying that the whole town went to the fair which I would argue is either Mark’s way of speaking or a passage that found itself in such a state due to translation.

As for Paul’s passage in Romans, I believe that he would have been more careful when speaking of the world’s redemption.

“…for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and all are justified by his grace through the redemption that came by Jesus Christ.”

All are not justified by their grace. All are justified by his “individual” grace. It sounds as though Paul was referring to every individual and not in a wow-the-whole-town-came-out way.

WRONG. Not true at all.

**Rom. 3:10, 23 explicitly states: “There is no one righteous, not even one; For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.” Is that so? How about babies or toddlers below the age of reason? What about those who are mentally challenged and may not have full use of their intellect and will? What about Jesus? St. Paul is speaking about those who trust in the Mosaic Law for their salvation.

In this passage, St. Paul is actually referrring to Psalm 14, where it says, "The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God. They are corrupt…there is none that does good.’” Later in the same Psalm, we hear that “God is present in the company of the “righteous.” **
I thought Paul said there was NONE righteous . . .

Your position is eisegetical in nature - not exegetical. This is very common among novice Bible students.

 

[jlhargus]

This is an argument that I haven’t seen presented. Why does the Catholic Church feel that Jesus could not have been born to a person who had sinned?

JL: I hope the following will give you a better understanding. Sin could not touch the ark of the OT Covenant, that’s why those who touched or opened it died. How much more the ark from which God took His flesh and blood, by which we are redeemed.

[GEN 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent Because thou hast done this thou art cursed… 15 And I will put ENMITY between THEE AND THE WOMAN and between THY SEED AND HER SEED it shall bruise thy head and thou shalt bruise his heel] God said, he would put ENMITY between THEE=Satan and THE WOMAN=Mary. Her seed (Christ) would only come after her. Yet God put enmity between Satan and Mary before her seed was born. She would always be at enmity with Satan, as she was never of his seed, therefore not under sin. Like Mary’s seed there was never a time when Mary was not at enmity with Satan.
ROM 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death but to be spiritually minded is life and peace 7 Because the CARNAL MIND IS ENMITY against God [Mary was always at enmity with Satan as God said I WILL PUT ENMITY BETWEEN THEE (SATAN) AND THE WOMAN (MARY).] JAS 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith God resisteth the proud but GIVEGTH GRACE UNTO THE HUMBLE… Wisdom1:4 Because wisdom will not enter a deceitful soul, nor dwell in a body enslaved to sin.

[LK 1:46 And MARY SAID MY SOUL DOTH MAGNIFY THE LORD 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour 48 For HE HATH REGARDED THE LOW ESTATE OF HIS HANDMAIDEN for behold from henceforth ALL GENERATIONS SHALL CALL ME BLESSED 49 For HE THAT IS MIGHTY HATH DONE TO ME GREAT THINGS and holy is his name. …52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats and EXALTED THEM OF LOW DEGREE]

LK 1:28 And the angel came in unto her and said Hail thou that art HIGHLY FAVOURED the LORD IS WITH THEE blessed art thou among women 29 … 30 And the angel said unto her Fear not MARY for THOU HAST FOUND FAVOUR WITH GOD [Hail, the angel salutes Mary as a dignitary, or as one of importance. He calls her, Highly favoured or “full of grace”, Mary was in a state of grace and the Lord was already with her before the angel came. Usually angels are shown reverence, by one falling on their face, but this time an angel shows reverence to a person.]

In the garden of Eden, Satan spoke only to Eve, who was created without sin. Eve spoke to Adam and gave him the apple. Had Adam, the head of the human race, not eaten the apple we would still be in the Garden of Eden. Adam was head and represented all humanity, his sin cause the lose of the indwelling life of God. It was thru Eve’s cooperation with Satan that sin entered the world. It is thru the new Eve, Mary, who was conceived without sin, who cooperated with God that salvation enters the world, thru Christ who is head and represents all humanity. Mary undid what Eve caused, Christ undid what Adam caused. CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

CONTUED:

[John the Baptist, was FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, sanctified, in the womb, therefore JOHN was BORN WITHOUT ORIGINAL SIN. Adam lost the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for mankind when he sinned. Original sin is not an actual sin, but a lack of the life of God within, we are not born deserving eternal life, that which is born of flesh is flesh, we are not born with the Holy Spirit in us. That’s why we baptise infants, to restore supernatural life to the soul.]

Lk1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, even FROM HIS MOTHER’S WOMB.

Lk1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elizabeth HEARD THE SALUTATION OF MARY, THE BABE LEAPED IN HER WOMB; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: [The same God who filled and sanctified John the Baptist in the womb filled and sanctified Mary at conception, with God nothing is impossible. The immaculate conception is not a great leap of faith at all. Those doctrines on Mary are defined because they reveal who Christ is. Mary a type of Eve, reveals Christ as new Adam. Mary as mother of God, reveals Christ is God made flesh. When you deny Mary as mother of God, you deny God became flesh. 2Jn1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge JESUS CHRIST AS COMING IN THE FLESH, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

The soul of the precursor was not preserved immaculate at its union with the body, but was sanctified either shortly after conception from a previous state of sin, or through the presence of Jesus at the Visitation. Again it is remarked that a peculiar privilege was granted to the prophet Jeremiah and to St. John the Baptist. They were sanctified in their mother’s womb, because by their preaching they had a special share in the work of preparing the way for Christ. (Catholic Encyclopedia) http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm Move down to, The conception of John the Baptist.

We are told in the book of Hebrews what the ark of the old covenant contained, [Hb9:4 … the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, WHEREIN WAS the golden pot that had MANNA, and AARON’S ROD that budded, and the TABLES OF THE CONVENANT;]
Mary the ark of the new covenant, wherein was; the MANNA= CHRIST, TRUE BREAD OF LIFE, AARON’S ROD=CHRIST, TRUE HIGH PRIEST, TEN COMMANDMENTS=CHRIST, TRUE WORD OF GOD.

[Ex25:8 And let them MAKE ME A SANCTUARY; THAT I MAY DWELL AMONG THEM. 9 ACCORDING TO ALL that I SHEW THEE, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it. 10 Have them MAKE A CHEST OF ACACIA WOOD—two and a half cubits long, a cubit and a half wide, and a cubit and a half high. 11 OVERLAY IT WITH PURE GOLD, BOTH INSIDE AND OUT, and make a gold molding around it. Ex25:40 See that you make them according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.]

If the Lord wanted the ark of the old covenant, made by hands, made to exact pattern and specific detail, from acacia wood and covered inside and out with PURE GOLD, that he may dwell among us. How much more would he cover the flesh, body and soul, of the living ark of the new covenant, not made by hands, with the purity of the Holy Spirit inside and out, that he may dwell among us. Mary the living ark would contain, in her womb, the real living Word of God, CHRIST, the real living Bread of Life, CHRIST, and the real living High Priest, CHRIST. Not just symbols as the ark made by hands contained, but the actual realities. As our Lord says in Ex25:22 THERE, ABOVE THE COVER BETWEEN THE TWO CHERUBIM THAT ARE OVER THE ARK OF THE TESTIMONY, I WILL MEET WITH YOU AND GIVE YOU ALL MY COMMANDS FOR THE ISRAELITES.

 

[JonNC]

Whoa … a Lutheran refuting Luther!

Lots of things I disagree with Luther on. Lutherans are held to scripture and the Lutheran confessions, not Luther.

The IC and sinlessness of the Blessed Virgin are adiaphora for Lutherans, so I won’t criticize hn160’s position on these. My own is simply that I see no reason to not believe that God protected the Blessed Virgin from sin, both original and personal, by His grace.

Jon

 

[jlhargus]

It would be how one would define reverence. When the thread branched into this latest area of disagreement, it was regarding the discomfort of Protestants of Mary’s position within Catholicism. I would never wish to speak disrespectfully of Mary due to her role. Catholics revere her, and it is understandable. When it comes to references of being Queen of the World and for her to pray for sinners, there is quite a bit to ponder.

JL: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7365075&postcount=529 Mary as Queen

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7429453&postcount=20 Perpetual Virgin

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5896761&postcount=99 Ark of the Covenant

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6051171#post6051171

 

[DElias]

I know why you have to rely on what some nameless “Catholics” say: it is your “clever” way to avoid what the Church teaches officially.
But, seriously, you know that that is not what the Catholic Church teaches, don’t you?

Actually, my comment was to support my previous statement.

Also, the latter was answered. Please take the time to read the posts.

 

[DElias]

WRONG. Not true at all.

Rom. 3:10, 23 explicitly states: *“There is no one righteous, not even one; *For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.” Is that so? How about babies or toddlers below the age of reason? What about those who are mentally challenged and may not have full use of their intellect and will? What about Jesus? St. Paul is speaking about those who trust in the Mosaic Law for their salvation.

In this passage, St. Paul is actually referrring to Psalm 14, where it says, "The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God. They are corrupt…there is none that does good.’” Later in the same Psalm, we hear that* “God is present in the company of the “righteous*.”
I thought Paul said there was NONE righteous . . .

Your position is eisegetical in nature - not exegetical. This is very common among novice Bible students.

Wow, you are an angry fellow. Interpret the Bible as you will. Psalms 14 is also prophetic. I would take Romans as it is written where Jesus is the fulfillment as such for all mankind. As for those unable to reason, I stand by the age of accountability and argue that those unable to reason would fall under this. It is, after all, Biblical, but you are free to add your own interpretation to satisfy your personal views.

 

[guanophore]

 My own is simply that I see no reason to not believe that God protected the Blessed Virgin from sin, both original and personal, by His grace.

Jon

Yes. This has always been the manner by which people are made holy. John the Baptist’s parents are among them.

Luke 1:5-6

5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechari’ah, of the division of Abi’jah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

If they can be righteous and blameless before God, why cannot His Mother? This did not come from works of the flesh, but by following the Law by grace through faith. This is the same way we are expected to keep the commandments today.

 

[guanophore]

Wow, you are an angry fellow.

It does come across that way. We have tried to get him to lay off the bold and the colors, to no avail. It really does seem like someone is SHOUTING! Then that “WRONG” seems to make a discussion difficult.

I also prefer “Catholics see it this way” or “the Church teaches” or “I see it as…”. I will sometimes slip into “WRONG!” but I don’t think it is productive.

As for those unable to reason, I stand by the age of accountability and argue that those unable to reason would fall under this. It is, after all, Biblical, but you are free to add your own interpretation to satisfy your personal views.

There are two problems with this. One is that there is nothing in scripture that speaks to the “age of accountability”, and that makes it an extrabiblical tradition.

Another is that we are not “free to add our own interpretation to satisfy personal views”. This is contrary to the teachings of the Apostles, and Catholics are not free to depart from what has been handed down by them.

When the Reformers did this, massive heresies and divisions resulted.

 

[Nicea325]

Wow, you are an angry fellow. Interpret the Bible as you will. Psalms 14 is also prophetic. I would take Romans as it is written where Jesus is the fulfillment as such for all mankind. As for those unable to reason, I stand by the age of accountability and argue that those unable to reason would fall under this. It is, after all, Biblical, but you are free to add your own interpretation to satisfy your personal views.

Where does Jesus teach about “age of accountablity” in any of his teachings? That is the other danger about Protestanism: Private interpretation,hence thousands upon thousands of denominations and no sight in end.

 

[elvisman]

Wow, you are an angry fellow. Interpret the Bible as you will. Psalms 14 is also prophetic. I would take Romans as it is written where Jesus is the fulfillment as such for all mankind. As for those unable to reason, I stand by the age of accountability and argue that those unable to reason would fall under this. It is, after all, Biblical, but you are free to add your own interpretation to satisfy your personal views.

**Angry? Not at all. **
As for adding my own personal views - isn’t that what you did by ignoring Paul’s obvious allusion to Psalm 14? Isn’t that what most Protestants do when rejecting some of the 2000-year-old Apostolic doctrines and replace them instead with their own man-made doctrines?

**Some people - like Guanophore - often chastise me for my use of color or admonishment of the unruly. That is not my concern. My only mission on this forum to to defend the truth. I type in bold colors because I like it - not because of any sense of acrimony or anger. **You misinterpret my writing style as erroneously as you interpret the Scriptures . . .