The Big Protestant Granfalloon!

[Captain_America]

Kurt Vonnegut’s concept of granfalloon (an idea that’s stretchy and addictive, a mental earworm) really fits well with the constant, hoary old Protestant condemnation of Catholics as using “works” to gain salvation.

It don’t work that way.

IF you believe and have faith, your actions will flow from this naturally. People “working” to get salvation come to naught, of course; but “believing and being” are innately joined.

It’s a mistake to set them apart; it really can’t be done. When a Protestant believes in Jesus as his savior, obviously his actions tell the tale. (And it’s a mental gymnastic to “accept” Christ, as if me, a mere human, are at a par with God; is this not, too, an act or work?).

“Works” and “grace” coexist.

 

[steido01]

IF you believe and have faith, your actions will flow from this naturally. People “working” to get salvation come to naught, of course; but “believing and being” are innately joined.

It’s a mistake to set them apart; it really can’t be done. When a Protestant believes in Jesus as his savior, obviously his actions tell the tale. (And it’s a mental gymnastic to “accept” Christ, as if me, a mere human, are at a par with God; is this not, too, an act or work?).

“Works” and “grace” coexist.

That’s an interesting observation.

But we should be careful not to make hasty generalizations about protestants and confine them to a ‘granfalloon’ they are not a part of. The “faith alone” that some modern day protestants seem to endorse (“I have faith so my works don’t matter!”) is not “faith alone” as the Reformers taught it. Take, for example, the Lutheran understanding of the relationship between faith and works:

“Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!” - Martin Luther

iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt

So when a protestant subscribes to Sola Fide, he is not jettisoning the importance of works (if he is well-catechized, anyway). While some protestant groups are indeed rather far off regarding faith and works, Lutheranism, at least, is quite similar to Roman Catholicism. I’d dare to say that your thoughts sound an awful lot like Lutheranism.

 

[JonNC]

That’s an interesting observation.

But we should be careful not to make hasty generalizations about protestants and confine them to a ‘granfalloon’ they are not a part of. The “faith alone” that some modern day protestants seem to endorse (“I have faith so my works don’t matter!”) is not “faith alone” as the Reformers taught it. Take, for example, the Lutheran understanding of the relationship between faith and works:

iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt

So when a protestant subscribes to Sola Fide, he is not jettisoning the importance of works (if he is well-catechized, anyway). While some protestant groups are indeed rather far off regarding faith and works, Lutheranism, at least, is quite similar to Roman Catholicism. I’d dare to say that your thoughts sound an awful lot like Lutheranism.

Well said, Don.
When this discussion comes up here, I often mention the Epitome of the Formula of Concord:
Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.

No choice here, we as the regenerate are bound (required) to do good works, according to His will.

Jon

 

[Ad_Orientem]

IF you believe and have faith, your actions will flow from this naturally.

In a way that’s true, but alas, faith and charity are indeed separable (cf. Jas. 2:19; Trent, Sess. VI, Can. 27). A mortal sin, unless committed against faith itself, will not necessarily destroy the virtue of faith. The faith of such persons does not, of course, save them (the devils still believe).

It’s also true, in a way, that we do not earn our salvation by works (in that salvation is a gratuitous gift); but we must be careful not to imply that works are merely manifestations of faith. Trent (Sess. VI) teaches:

Can. 24) If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema.

Can. 26) If anyone says that the just ought not for the good works done in God to expect and hope for an eternal reward from God through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ, if by doing well and by keeping the divine commandments they persevere to the end, let him be anathema.

 

[Monergistic]

Maybe you could do a poll and see how non-Catholics on this particular forum choose to talk about faith and works. I volunteer Steido and JonNC to help you with the wording of some of the options.

 

[Fairwinds]

Kurt Vonnegut’s concept of granfalloon (an idea that’s stretchy and addictive, a mental earworm) really fits well with the constant, hoary old Protestant condemnation of Catholics as using “works” to gain salvation…

many of our Protestant friends would call this a false representation of what they believe.

 

[JonNC]

many of our Protestant friends would call this a false representation of what they believe.

Understanding the diversity of protestant beliefs, I’d say there’s been plenty of false representation on both sides, and even often between protestants.

Jon

 

[Fairwinds]

Understanding the diversity of protestant beliefs, I’d say there’s been plenty of false representation on both sides, and even often between protestants.

Jon

there’s this:

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church

and I believe the high church Anglicans/AngloCatholics are share Rome’s beliefs.

 

[JonNC]

there’s this:

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church

and I believe the high church Anglicans/AngloCatholics are share Rome’s beliefs.

Even though my synod has yet to sign on to the JDDJ, I believe it is an excellent document, as far as it goes.

Jon

 

[Captain_America]

No.

Faith naturally generates works.

I think the logical error is that Catholics are stereotyped falsely, as somehow believing that by doing actions that we consider “good” that this somehow generates real faith within us.

The classic silly example is a rich guy trying to buy his way into heaven.

This ain’t so.

Faith and works are inseparable; faith generates works.

 

[Tomster]

No.

Faith naturally generates works.

I think the logical error is that Catholics are stereotyped falsely, as somehow believing that by doing actions that we consider “good” that this somehow generates real faith within us.

The classic silly example is a rich guy trying to buy his way into heaven.

This ain’t so.

Faith and works are inseparable; faith generates works.

Depends on which individual Protestant you ask, C.A.

The Protestant dogma of private judgment allows for all sorts of interpretations in this area.

 

[JonNC]

Depends on which individual Protestant you ask, C.A.

The Protestant dogma of private judgment allows for all sorts of interpretations in this area.

Can you link a site from a Protestant denomination or communion that declares thus “dogma”? Thanks.

Jon

 

[Tomster]

Can you link a site from a Protestant denomination or communion that declares thus “dogma”? Thanks.

Jon

I was only referring to Protestant denominations Jon. We both know that Lutheranism is not a Protestant denomination but merely the correct continuation of Catholicism and thus private judgment does not apply to your or any other form of Lutheranism. Correct?

 

[JonNC]

I was only referring to Protestant denominations Jon. We both know that Lutheranism is not a Protestant denomination but merely the correct continuation of Catholicism and thus private judgment does not apply to your or any other form of Lutheranism. Correct?

Jon

 

[Tomster]

I was only referring to Protestant denominations Jon. We both know that Lutheranism is not a Protestant denomination but merely the correct continuation of Catholicism and thus private judgment does not apply to your or any other form of Lutheranism. Correct?

Jon,

Since Lutheranism is the correct continuation of Catholicism, what, in your opinion, must current day Catholicism add and/or jettison to come fully in line with current day Lutheranism as diverse in beliefs as it may be?

 

[JonNC]

Jon,

Since Lutheranism is the correct continuation of Catholicism, what, in your opinion, must current day Catholicism add and/or jettison to come fully in line with current day Lutheranism as diverse in beliefs as it may be?

My personal view - yes my personal interpretation
Lutherans will speak about the Sacrifice of the Mass, the Doctrine of Justification, and other things but my view is today, 500 years after the Reformation, the single most important issue is the nature and extent of the primacy of the pope. All other issues revolve around that. And note, also, this isn’t simply a Lutheran concern, but a concern of our Orthodox siblings, and most others.

I might add that I am not so arrogant that I don’t recognize that Rome is the western See, and there are things in modern day Catholicism that Lutherans can and should learn from, including things we have, much to our detriment, jettisoned in the past so as not to appear “too Catholic”. I believe unity between us will not be the result of one “submitting” to the other. That hasn’t work for the last 500 years. Instead, unity will come by listening to each other, and listening to the Holy Spirit.

Jon

 

[Tomster]

My personal view - yes my personal interpretation
Lutherans will speak about the Sacrifice of the Mass, the Doctrine of Justification, and other things but my view is today, 500 years after the Reformation, the single most important issue is the nature and extent of the primacy of the pope. All other issues revolve around that. And note, also, this isn’t simply a Lutheran concern, but a concern of our Orthodox siblings, and most others.

I might add that I am not so arrogant that I don’t recognize that Rome is the western See, and there are things in modern day Catholicism that Lutherans can and should learn from, including things we have, much to our detriment, jettisoned in the past so as not to appear “too Catholic”. I believe unity between us will not be the result of one “submitting” to the other. That hasn’t work for the last 500 years. Instead, unity will come by listening to each other, and listening to the Holy Spirit.

Jon

So:

1. The Sacrifice of the Mass
2. The Doctrine of Justification
3. other things (specifically?)
4. The Papacy

Anything else?

You weren’t clear as to whether the above topics should be should be kept, re-defined or jettisoned.

Please be specific.

 

[JonNC]

So:

1. The Sacrifice of the Mass
2. The Doctrine of Justification
3. other things (specifically?)
4. The Papacy

Anything else?

You weren’t clear as to whether the above topics should be should be kept, re-defined or jettisoned.

Please be specific.

That’s a reasonable list The reasons I am not specific on how these issues between us should be handled are two-fold.
1). It is unreasonable to expect a dialogue partner to just willy nilly jettison something they believe important. More than unreasonable, also condescending.

2). It frankly isn’t my place to determine these things. Our communions have knowledgeable people whose job it is to dialogue, relying on the guidance of the Spirit.

Jon

 

[MaryT777]

Even though my synod has yet to sign on to the JDDJ, I believe it is an excellent document, as far as it goes.

Jon

Jon the LCMS put a pretty strong statement out against the JDDJ; do you think it’s possible the LCMS will sign it at some point?

If so do you think there would need to be a declaration that is worded differently?

Mary.

 

[JonNC]

Jon the LCMS put a pretty strong statement out against the JDDJ; do you think it’s possible the LCMS will sign it at some point?

If so do you think there would need to be a declaration that is worded differently?

Mary.

I’m just not sure, Mary. The LCMS response was rather strong, and it might be hard for the synod to eventually walk that back, unless they become convinced that their understanding of the document and the Vatican’s understanding is the same.
It might require some alternative wording, but I think more importantly there needs to develop a better, more trusting atmosphere and relationship between us. That hasn’t been there in the past, frankly. But, just in the last few years, that may be changing, and not simply because we are in the same camp on the HHS Mandate, the ministerial exception, and other issues. In Canada, the Canadian Catholic bishops and the Lutheran Church - Canada have reached out to each other and have started a dialogue. The same seems to be happening in Europe between Catholics and confessional Lutherans. And it may be because confessional Lutherans have done far less drifting toward liberal Protestantism. Things like an all male clergy, similar moral beliefs, seems to make us a more inviting,reliable dialogue partner for Catholics than our more liberal siblings in the LWF. That’s not to say that the ELCA has done some good ecumenism. They have, but some of their newer policies seem to push them further and further away from historic orthodox teaching, again particularly on the clergy and morals.

Jon