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Augustine3
Guest
I’m a little confused by what we mean when we say Pentecost was the birth of the Church, what about Matthew 16:18 and 18:17 which was before Pentecost?
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PaulfromIowa
Guest
Jesus constantly foretells the Church in the Gospels, although the Catholic Church did not exist until Pentecost.
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Gusto
Guest
**Gen 2:7 – The Breath of Life **
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Comment - The birth of the Church
The birth of the Church, accomplished in the mystery of Christ’s Passover, is concretely manifested in important gestures and in words: ‘The evening of the same day, the first day of the week…Jesus came…and said to them: “Peace be with you. As the Father sent me, so am I sending you”.
After saying this he breathed on them and said: “Receive the Holy Spirit. For those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven”’ (Jn 20:21–23).
Very sensitive to biblical symbolism, John notes that the event dates from the first day of the week. According to the biblical account, creation began at the beginning of a week.
The Breath of God hovered over the water; through the action of the Breath, Adam awakened to life. On this other first day of the week, Jesus breathes on the disciples. The gesture is creative, the Church is created in the Spirit of the risen Jesus.
Source: Holy Spirit of God
Scott Hahn
I posted this on my blog because I thought the same as you at one stage.
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SonDatServes
Guest
Matthew 16:18 …upon this rock I WILL build my church…
Matthew 18:17 …tell it unto the church:…
First, Mat 16:18 was talking of a future action, yet to come.
secondly,While Mat 18:17 described a group of people in authority over a large group of believers, to whom disputes should be reported to.I think this relates to a principle of how believers should handle dispute not because the dispute was there at the time but because He knew disputes would arise later when the church starts.
Pentecost was the birth of the Church because, that was when the apostles where commissioned(empowered, emboldened) by the power of the Holy Spirit to start living and teaching all Jesus had taught them while He was with them. Before then, it was only Judaism that was being practiced. After Pentecost, Christianity started. In fact, it was the manner of the apostle’s and disciple’s living, which was different from the order of the day, that made people call them Christians (Christ-like).
God bless.
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A_G
Guest
Officially, Jesus’ words were fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. * “And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they began to speak with divers tongues, according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak.”* (Acts Of Apostles 2:4) Douay-Rheims Bible
The disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit.
We see that St. Peter, the first Pope, is “the rock” we see in Matthew 16:16-18. We see in the book of Acts how he spoke to all, started preaching and taking his taking his position that Christ gave to him:
*“But Peter standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spoke to them: Ye men of Judea, and all you that dwell in Jerusalem, be this known to you, and with your ears receive my words.” * (Acts Of Apostles 2:14) Douay-Rheims Bible
The apostle Peter preached his first sermon, urging the crowds to repent, to believe in Jesus Christ as their Messiah and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
“But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts Of Apostles 2:38) Douay-Rheims Bible
*“They therefore that received his word, were baptized; and there were added in that day about three thousand souls.” *(Acts Of Apostles 2:41) Douay-Rheims Bible
According to the Catechism:
The disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit.
We see that St. Peter, the first Pope, is “the rock” we see in Matthew 16:16-18. We see in the book of Acts how he spoke to all, started preaching and taking his taking his position that Christ gave to him:
*“But Peter standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spoke to them: Ye men of Judea, and all you that dwell in Jerusalem, be this known to you, and with your ears receive my words.” * (Acts Of Apostles 2:14) Douay-Rheims Bible
The apostle Peter preached his first sermon, urging the crowds to repent, to believe in Jesus Christ as their Messiah and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
“But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts Of Apostles 2:38) Douay-Rheims Bible
*“They therefore that received his word, were baptized; and there were added in that day about three thousand souls.” *(Acts Of Apostles 2:41) Douay-Rheims Bible
According to the Catechism:
- On the day of Pentecost when the seven weeks of Easter had come to an end, Christ’s Passover is fulfilled in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, manifested, given, and communicated as a Divine Person: of His fullness, Christ, the Lord, pours out the Spirit in abundance.
- The Church was made manifest to the world on the day of Pentecost by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The gift of the Spirit ushers in a new era in the “dispensation of the mystery” – the Age of the Church, during which Christ manifests, makes present, and communicates His work of salvation through the Liturgy of His Church, “until He comes.” In this age of the Church Christ now lives and acts in and with His Church, in a new way appropriate to this new age. He acts through the Sacraments in what the common Tradition of the East and the West calls “the sacramental economy”; this is the communication (or “dispensation”) of the fruits of Christ’s Paschal mystery in the celebration of the Church’s “sacramental” Liturgy.
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Edmundus1581
Guest
Thankyou!
I’ve learnt something today.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Just to clarify, the Church teaches that the birth of the Church was at the Crucfixion, flowing from Jesus’ (the 2nd Adam) side as His bride, just as Eve was taken from Adam’s side.*Paragraph 766 “The origin and growth of the Church are symbolized by the blood and water which flowed from the open side of the crucified Jesus.”…the Church was born from the pierced heart of Christ hanging dead on the cross.
Paragraph 767 …on the day of Pentecost…the Church was openly displayed to the crowds and the spread of the Gospel among the nations, through preaching, was begun."*
Paragraph 767 …on the day of Pentecost…the Church was openly displayed to the crowds and the spread of the Gospel among the nations, through preaching, was begun."*
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Edmundus1581
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Lesson number two for today. ThankyouJust to clarify, the Church teaches that the birth of the Church was at the Crucfixion, flowing from Jesus’ (the 2nd Adam) side as His bride, just as Eve was taken from Adam’s side.Paragraph 766 “The origin and growth of the Church are symbolized by the blood and water which flowed from the open side of the crucified Jesus.”…the Church was born from the pierced heart of Christ hanging dead on the cross.
Paragraph 767 …on the day of Pentecost…the Church was openly displayed to the crowds and the spread of the Gospel among the nations, through preaching, was begun."
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Augustine3
Guest
Would it be accurate to say the Church was conceived with Matthew 16:18 and born on Pentecost (in a manner of speaking) after the apostles were “fully equipped” by the Holy Spirit?
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thistle
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Not according to CCC 766/767.
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Augustine3
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I don’t get it? If according to the CCC paragraph 766 the Church was born in the pierced heart of Christ hanging dead on the cross, then what do we do with Matthew 18:17?
God bless,
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Augustine3
Guest
Can anyone answer this question?
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TimothyH
Guest
This is an important post.
John 20:21-23 is John’s version of pentacost, the reception of the Holy Spirit (breath of God) by the disciples.
-Tim-
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TimothyH
Guest
***If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. *(Matthew 18:15-18)
Legitimate authority had been given by God to Moses. The pharisees, chief priests and scribes “Sat on the Chair of Moses.” Their authority was God given. Jesus recognized the corruption of the chief priests, scribes and pharisees and so advises his followers not to follow their example, but he also recognizes the fact that their authority is legitimately given by God and so he advises his followers to “do all that they tell you”.
Do as they say, not as they do, so to speak.
Jesus was about to remove the legitimate authority from the Chair of Moses and establish the Chair of Peter as the seat of power in his earthly kingdom, granting the judicial/legislative authority to “Bind and Loose” to the Church through Peter.
See Matthew 23 where Jesus condemns the Jewish leadership.
Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood shed upon earth, from the righteous blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. (Matthew 23:34-36)
The Chair of Peter and the Church is God’s legitimate authority on matters of faith and morals. The woe preached by Jesus in Matthew 23 came to pass in 70AD when the temple was torn down and all Jerusalem destroyed. The Church, through Peter, is now the legitimate authority and it is to the Church that we look for guidance on faith and morals.
-Tim-
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Augustine3
Guest
Great info - thanks for that insight.
Are you saying Matthew 18:17 was part of a transitional phase? This is why it remains unclear to me. In this verse Jesus was talking as though the Church had already been set up. I don’t see any indication that he was speaking as though the Church was to be born in the future?
God bless,
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TimothyH
Guest
If you look closely at how Matthew’s Gospel is constructed, you can discern repeated patterns which divide the Gospel into five sub-books plus a prologue and conclusion. Each of the five sub-books is defined by a narrative story about what Jesus did and where he went, followed by one of Jesus’ lengthy discourses such as the sermon on the mount. Each of the five books has a theme.
Prologue: Birth of the King
Matthew 1-2: Jesus’ ancestry and infancy
Book 1: Announcement of the Kingdom
Narrative: Matthew 3-4: John the Baptist and Jesus’ early ministry
Discourse: Matthew 5-7: Sermon on the mount
Book 2: Establishment of the Kingdom
Narrative: Matthew 8-9: Miracles, comissioning of the Twelve
Discourse: Matthew 10: Missionary instructions
Book 3: The Kingdom Defined
Narrative: Matthew 11-12: Jesus confronts and evil generation
Discourse: Matthew 13: Kingdom parables
Book 4: Transfer of the Kingdom’s Authority
Narrative: Matthew 14-17: Travels & ministry, Jesus instructing the Twelve
Discourse: Matthew 18: Life in the Christian community
Book 5: Announcement of the end of the old kingdom
Narrative: Matthew 19-23: Events and teaching in Judea
Discourse: Matthew 24-25: Olivet Discourse (judgment on Jerusalem)
Conclusion
Matthew 26-28: Passion week
The first thing we have to realize about this structure is that it is a literary technique which the ancient writers often used as a teaching aid. The very structure itself is designed to teach us things about the life and mission of Jesus, but it should not be assumed that the narrative follows the life of Jesus in exact chronological order. Much of it is in chronological order but chronology, history and science was not what Matthew focused on. That’s not how ancient writers wrote. That’s not how God writes.
Matthew 18 is part of “Book 4” which discusses the transfer of authority. In this fourth sub-book, Matthew has Jesus the King instructing those whom he has chosen to lead his kingdom, and he addresses questions about life in the Christian community specifically in chapter 18.
*Q: Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
**A: **Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Q: Lord, if my brother sins against me, how often must I forgive him? As many as seven times?
A: I say to you, not seven times but seventy-seven times.*
Jesus uses these questions as a launching pad to teach about life in the christian community, specifically teaching about forgiveness and humility.
Notice the first verse of chapter 19. When Jesus finished these words, he left Galilee and went to the district of Judea across the Jordan. (Matthew 19:1) This is Matthew’s signal to the reader that just as Jesus finished these teachings and physically moved on, so too is the author. This section of the story is over and Matthew is moving on to another part of the story, to a different theme.
Knowing about the structure of Matthew’s Gospel, the fact that it is made up of sub-books each with its own theme, and the context of any given verse relative to the structure and theme helps to put the verse in its proper context.
Chronology simply wasn’t as important to the ancient writers as it is to us. I hate to say it, but we just have to face it and get over it. Matthew didn’t necessarily write in chronological order. Some of it is chronological, but chronology wasn’t his point. His point was to teach about Jesus succeeding where Israel failed, to point to Jesus as the new Moses, and to show Jesus as the King with authority to replace the Chair of Moses with the Chair of Peter. Matthew 18:17 describes part of what life in that new kingdom will be like.
God gave us the Bible for the sake of salvation, not for the sake of history or science, but for salvation. That’s God’s point in giving it to us in the first place.
-Tim-
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Augustine3
Guest
Brilliant! Thank you!
God bless,
God bless,
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TimothyH
Guest
Glad it helped. I just read the books and pay attention at Bible study. All the credit goes to God and the theologians who write this stuff.
I’m just a good parrot.
-Tim-
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Augustine3
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Actually I just realized something. I can appreciate the Gospel of Matthew not necessarily being in strict chronological order, but surely Matthew 18:17 was said before Jesus died on the cross…uh oh now we are back at square one.
Chronologically Matthew 18:17 was before the crucifixion, so how could the birth of the church be at the point of Jesus on the cross when Jesus speaks in Matthew 18:17 as though the church had already been established?
God bless,
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Brendan
Guest
The CCC is correct. The Church was born at the foot of the Cross. At Pentecost, it is given it’s missionary calling, but it began at the Cross.
And, when one thinks about, it makes sense. Christ would not leave His faithful without His Body, the Church. He does not leave us alone, without Him.
And one of the reasons, is Mt 18:17. There HAD to be an authority, a source of Truth and Salvation between the Ascension and Pentecost. And that source was the Church founded at the Cross
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