The blessed Virgin and Traditionalism generally-speaking

[GaryTaylor]

Would you agree the knowledge thus distance between you and God is so vast its almost impossible to comprehend. Being God is omnipotent.omnipresent, and omniscient, would you not say this a fair statement?

God placed understandable means which we as humans can comprehend, to help come to him. To help come to which we can only begin to understand…GOD.

Jesus Christ in the flesh, the Blessed Mother, the Prophets, the Saints are all such paths which we can begin to understand the path to God. The Holy Spirit is the Miracle thats witnessed daily and shows us the folly of time.

Thus the process of descend/acsend which is constantly in effect on the vertical axis, the horizontal axis is simply “time” and its nothing more than a learning tool placed by God. When there is nothing else for man to know in relation to God? It will cease to exist. This vertical axis is one of intercession, so you may ascend faster and understand quicker instead of trying to figure out a omnipotent.omnipresent, and omniscient God which to encompass is vast.

He didn’t place these souls here to replace God. He placed them here to help you find God and more importantly help you understand, and through their constant intercession they speak for you the sinner. And on the descend path they help you ascend.

Peace

 

[GaryTaylor]

BTW, when I pray the Litany of Loretto I ALSO pray the following Litany of Jesus Christ as well as the Litany of the Holy Spirit. Here is the Litany of Jesus Christ:
Litany of the Holy Name of Jesus

V. Lord, have mercy on us.
R. Christ, have mercy on us.
V. Lord, have mercy on us. Jesus, hear us.
R. Jesus, graciously hear us.
V. God the Father of Heaven
R. Have mercy on us.
V. God the Son, Redeemer of the world,
R. Have mercy on us.
V. God the Holy Spirit,
R. Have mercy on us.
V. Holy Trinity, one God,
R. Have mercy on us.
V. Jesus, Son of the living God, R. Have mercy on us.
Jesus, splendor of the Father, etc.]
Jesus, brightness of eternal light.
Jesus, King of glory.
Jesus, sun of justice.
Jesus, Son of the Virgin Mary.
Jesus, most amiable.
Jesus, most admirable.
Jesus, the mighty God.
Jesus, Father of the world to come.
Jesus, angel of great counsel.
Jesus, most powerful.
Jesus, most patient.
Jesus, most obedient.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart.
Jesus, lover of chastity.
Jesus, lover of us.
Jesus, God of peace.
Jesus, author of life.
Jesus, example of virtues.
Jesus, zealous lover of souls.
Jesus, our God.
Jesus, our refuge.
Jesus, father of the poor.
Jesus, treasure of the faithful.
Jesus, good Shepherd.
Jesus, true light.
Jesus, eternal wisdom.
Jesus, infinite goodness.
Jesus, our way and our life.
Jesus, joy of Angels.
Jesus, King of the Patriarchs.
Jesus, Master of the Apostles.
Jesus, teacher of the Evangelists.
Jesus, strength of Martyrs.
Jesus, light of Confessors.
Jesus, purity of Virgins.
Jesus, crown of Saints.
V. Be merciful, R. spare us, O Jesus.
V. Be merciful, R. graciously hear us, O Jesus.
V. From all evil, R. deliver us, O Jesus.
From all sin, deliver us, O Jesus.
From Your wrath, etc.]
From the snares of the devil.
From the spirit of fornication.
From everlasting death.
From the neglect of Your inspirations.
By the mystery of Your holy Incarnation.
By Your Nativity.
By Your Infancy.
By Your most divine Life.
By Your labors.
By Your agony and passion.
By Your cross and dereliction.
By Your sufferings.
By Your death and burial.
By Your Resurrection.
By Your Ascension.
By Your institution of the most Holy Eucharist.
By Your joys.
By Your glory.
V. Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world,
R. spare us, O Jesus.
V. Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world,
R. graciously hear us, O Jesus.
V. Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world,
R. have mercy on us, O Jesus.
V. Jesus, hear us.
R. Jesus, graciously hear us.
Let us pray.
O Lord Jesus Christ, You have said, “Ask and you shall receive, seek, and you shall find, knock, and it shall be opened to you.” Grant, we beg of You, to us who ask it, the gift of Your most divine love, that we may ever love You with our whole heart, in word and deed, and never cease praising You.
Give us, O Lord, as much a lasting fear as a lasting love of Your Holy Name, for You, who live and are King for ever and ever, never fail to govern those whom You have solidly established in Your love. R. Amen.

Bless you, I also pray them and also St Joseph the Worker. And yes the Holy Rosary is considered a perfect Prayer recitation.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Beloved sibling Credo, I’ve seen that video before. It is very moving and convincing, but it does not make me believe that I must go through St. Mary to get to Christ. God came to us via her pure womb, but once He became incarnate all history was changed forever. We venerate her and ask her intercession, as with all the saints. I do not deny or reject this.

Well my dear brother in Christ I think the problem is you dont value it.

What I am asking about is whether trads can be trads without saying a Rosary every day, the Angelus, the Three Hail Marys, and all the Marian hymns. Why are these devotions considered so essential? If we were talking about anything other than Mary, phrases like “we must get to X through Y” would have a salvation-related tone. Are we saved only by going to the Father through Christ through Mary? No one would ever say this, and I don’t think that’s what you are all saying… but it sure sounds like it sometimes!

We are called to love our Lord with all our heart, mind, body and soul. Sure there are those who do not know Mary and will be saved by God’s grace (procured for them by the petitions of His Blessed Mother): however for those of us where more is given then much more will be asked in return. As a Catholic you have been given God’s faith which stresses the importance of knowing His Mother who is your Mother. God gave her to you so you will grow in your love for Him and thus fulfill the greatest commandment. To not value, cherish, and have devotion to Our Lady is not just a non-traditional thing but a non-Catholic thing and therefore a non-Christian thing.

[SIGN][BIBLEDRB]Exodus 20:12[/BIBLEDRB][/SIGN]

You may say that my experience with the awed and hushed Marian chant is only because Christ is present because Mary is so present, but in that case why is there such an atmosphere of “blah” during the actual prayers to Christ? This may be one parish, but it’s an experience I’ve had all over the Church. People get very reverent when Mary is the subject of prayer, and then don’t seem that interested. On C.A.F., threads questioning Mary’s role are answered immediately and everyone freaks out at any attacks on the blessed Virgin (rightly), but when people come up with theological errors about our Lord, the responses are slower to come. It’s all very odd…

The only thing I will say is that you base too much of your faith off of these experiences.

 

[TimothyH]

I thought about this thread this evening and came to the realizaiton that people went to Jesus directly because he was not seen as a king, at least not early in his public ministry. To most people Jesus was a prophet, but not a civil/military monarch. Bear with me on this…

Throughout the Old Testament we have the image of the “Queen Mother” - “Gebirah” in Hebrew. For reference, the word Gebirah appears 15 times in the Hebrew Old Testament.

A common practice among military allies in the Old Testament was for the kings to exchange daughters. Each king would take the daughter of his ally as a wife and this arrangement really made perfect sense. Each king would have a close family member in the royal court of his ally, able to report back news of what was happening to ensure that the allience was on the up-and-up. But each king would be loath to promote the daughter of the another king to the position of queen as this would have given tremendous power to an ally who might some day become a rival. This is why kings would often promote their own mother to the position of queen. The Queen Mother was known as the “Gebirah,” the most famous of which is Bathsheba.

Then Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right. (1 Kings 2:19 NAB)

Bathsheba clearly sits on a throne, a sign that she held the official title of Gebirah for Solomon’s kingdom. 1 and 2 Kings and 1 and 2 Chronicles gives the name of every Queen Mother of both the northern nation of Israel and the Southern nation of Judah during the divided kingdom.

In the eighteenth year of King Jeroboam, Abijah became king of Judah; he reigned three years in Jerusalem. His mother was named Micaiah, daughter of Uriel of Gibeah. (2 Chronicles 13:1-2 NAB)

Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he became king, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Athaliah, daughter of Omri. (2 Chronicles 22:2 NAB)

…and so forth. In the story of Solomon and his Gebirah Bathsheba, we see the absolute repsect and reverence given to the king. Due to his magesty and power, ordinary citizens, and even close family members were not deemed worthy to go to the king directly. In some circumstances, the king’s power was so esteemed that even a wife of the king would be put to death if she approached the king without permission. This led to the practice of the Queen Mother fielding requests on behalf of the king and then bringing those requests which she deemed worthy to the king for consideration herself.

Adonijah, son of Haggith, came to Bathsheba, the mother of Solomon. “Do you come in peace?” she asked. “In peace,” he answered, and he added, “I have something to say to you.” She replied, “Speak.” So he said: “You know that the kingship was mine, and all Israel expected me to be king. But the kingship passed me by and went to my brother; by the LORD’s will it went to him. But now there is one favor I would ask of you. Do not refuse me.” And she said, “Speak on.” He said, "Please ask King Solomon, who will not refuse you, to give me Abishag the Shunamite to be my wife." Bathsheba replied, “Very well, I will speak to the king for you.” (1 Kings 2:13-18)

Unlike David, Solomon, and the other monarchs of the Old Testament, Jesus was not viewed by the ordinary Jew of his time as a king. At several points they tried to make him king but he distained the title of King and went to great lengths to avoid being seen as a temporal ruler.

When the people saw the sign he had done, they said, "This is truly the Prophet, the one who is to come into the world." Since Jesus knew that they were going to come and carry him off to make him king, he withdrew again to the mountain alone. (John 6:14-15)

Since Jesus was not seen as a king but as a prophet and he himself distained the title of King, people would have freely approached him. We know in hindsight that Jesus is the King of kings and Lord of lords, the greatest king who every walked the face of the earth. And we know as a fact, clearly stated in scripture, that Jesus’ mother Mary is the Gebirah in Heaven.

Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm. A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. (Revelation 11:19, 12:1-2)

Pope Pius XII made Mary’s Queenship dogma of the Church. Reference Ad Caeli Reginam.

So my point is, if Solomon had a Gebirah whom even the most powerful citizens and Solomon’s own family members went to because they were unworthy to go to the king directly, and if all the other kings in the Bible have Gebirah, should we not go to our own king, Jesus Christ, through his Gebirah, Mary? Is not Mary the fulfillment of all the Gebirahs of the Old Testament?

I would ask that anyone who has read this whole post and yet disagrees, to please do me the honor of not disagreeing with me, but of disagreeing with two thousand years of tradition and clear scriptural teaching which Pope Pius XII recognized as the basis for teaching infallibly that Mary is the Gebirah in Heaven.

-Tim-

 

[Monica4316]

Quite right.

I think what’s bothering me is that Catholics at large, across the world, honour Mary so much because they’re afraid to honour Christ directly.

This is not true at all…

this is not the reason why people honour Mary so much.

St Louis de Montfort is a good example of this. He fought the Jansenist heresy, where they did see God as very distant and unapproachable. He taught of God differently, and also he taught devotion to Mary. They disagreed with him and persecuted him on both accounts.

 

[TrueLight]

So my point is, if Solomon had a Gebirah whom even the most powerful citizens and Solomon’s own family members went to because they were unworthy to go to the king directly, and if all the other kings in the Bible have Gebirah, should we not go to our own king, Jesus Christ, through his Gebirah, Mary? Is not Mary the fulfillment of all the Gebirahs of the Old Testament?

I would ask that anyone who has read this whole post and yet disagrees, to please do me the honor of not disagreeing with me, but of disagreeing with two thousand years of tradition and clear scriptural teaching which Pope Pius XII recognized as the basis for teaching infallibly that Mary is the Gebirah in Heaven.

-Tim-

Nothing like posting something then essentially saying if you disagree with me, you disagree with the church and and therefore you are a heretic.

Anyway, I totally understand the whole concept of not approaching the King.

Mary is to be most honored among all the Saints. And she who spent 30+ years with Jesus surely is the greatest intercessor among all the saints.

Jesus knew that he would ascent into the father and he knew he is King. Nevertheless,…

1John 5:14-15
“And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: and if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.”

John 14:13-14
"And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

That’s all I’m saying.

 

[TrueLight]

Great response Tim.

In the Old Testament the Jews venerated the Ark and the ones that didnt where seen as insulting God. Mary is the new Ark and when you dont venerate her you are insulting God. Food for thought.

@OP: Here is a great video about Mary. Please take the time to watch it. I hope it helps you grow in your devotion to our Blessed Mother.

youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA

Also I would recommend reading the book ** “The Admirable Heart of Mary” ** by Saint John Eudes.

God Bless

Awesome video. I’m speechless!

 

[odile53]

I’ve struggled with Mary through the years, not quite sure what or how to think of her, even though I’ve prayed the rosary daily for at least the past fifteen years. I was talking with my spiritual director tonight about this very subject as a matter of fact, and some exchange with him produced this—it may be that, because Mary is so extraordinarily unique, we really don’t have much of a template.

He pointed out: Christ, after all, is Himself God, one Person of the Trinity. Mary’s spouse, St. Joseph, was a human. Only Mary is fully human but perfect in every way without being divine. In other words, she’s in a league of her own. I don’t know if the ramifications of that were ever so obvious to me.

The counsel I received tonight was–it doesn’t really matter if we are able to nail down the personality of Mary, but our knowledge and understanding of her will grow if we ask her to reveal herself to us.

That might be through traditional devotional material, it might be through various meditative techniques such as application of the senses, it might be through reading what others have learned. It might be a combination of all of these, and it might be a free gift from her to us. Our insights might vary widely between us. But they will always come, if we are interested enough to search for them.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I’ve struggled with Mary through the years, not quite sure what or how to think of her, even though I’ve prayed the rosary daily for at least the past fifteen years. I was talking with my spiritual director tonight about this very subject as a matter of fact, and some exchange with him produced this—it may be that, because Mary is so extraordinarily unique, we really don’t have much of a template.

He pointed out: Christ, after all, is Himself God, one Person of the Trinity. Mary’s spouse, St. Joseph, was a human. Only Mary is fully human but perfect in every way without being divine. In other words, she’s in a league of her own. I don’t know if the ramifications of that were ever so obvious to me.

The counsel I received tonight was–it doesn’t really matter if we are able to nail down the personality of Mary, but our knowledge and understanding of her will grow if we ask her to reveal herself to us.

That might be through traditional devotional material, it might be through various meditative techniques such as application of the senses, it might be through reading what others have learned. It might be a combination of all of these, and it might be a free gift from her to us. Our insights might vary widely between us. But they will always come, if we are interested enough to search for them.

I don’t know your struggle but from your brief post, however I could relate to this. As young boys growing in the church it wasn’t un-common for us the seek Christ first. Looking back I believe much has to do with male-ego, image and in some case’s just plain lazy. The feeling was pretty much geez, we don’t have to do all that. And as mentioned in the first post you don’t.

Though I don’t know anyone who didn’t witness the Blessing of Mary in those early years. It was obvious and plain for all to see. Its very hard to attend the church daily and not see the gift of Mary through those who are dedicated to her. It becomes apparent very quickly these souls are on a path guided by the Blessed Mother. My grandparents owned a home next door to the church so I witnessed my Grandmother and Mother pray the Rosary daily their entire lives. I had to admit to myself quickly I didn’t know if I could do that and I didn’t partake until I was serious about the commitment.

That said, there is no greater aspect of the faith than the Holy Sacrifice and to partake in it. And this is Christ centered. That is from God directly. The Liturgy of the church is Christ centered. The alter is the Holy Spirit and of course there’s the Eucharist. When the Lord said “Do this in memory of me” he wasn’t asking, he was instructing. And He is present is all the tabernacles of the world.

Life and intercession works a bit differently for each soul. Though you may pray the Rosary for 15-years or however long, your devotion is applied where its needed most and as the Lord wills, how and to whom He wills. In this personally I see no point in asking for anything, but thats me. Your needs are not un-noticed. The Lord chose to lose no-souls, and we see this in the Blessed Mother. She is instructing man to pray for sinners. First Saturday Reparation is for sinners. None of this is for you. The Blessed Mother choose to use your intercession to save lost souls that otherwise have no hope. There is the desire of God to establish the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

How one should come to believe and understand is a case to case situation, some feel and acknowledge the presense of God very early in life and never deny His name, and this feeling never leaves. Others will play around not usre until their life literally hangs in the balance, they cry out for God. Some do not understand they stand in eternity. Eternity isn’t coming, you are already in it. And so forth and so on. To experience a dry spell which lasts a long period is not unheard of. However when its said “The Kingdom of God is within you” that is a literal statement which could be shortened to the Kingdom of God is you. We as individuals need to learn and constantly listen to the Holy Spirit speaking to us, all else is ego and not of God. You can chose not to listen and entertain your ego thus illusion. You know the Sisters use to tell us this at age 5-6 in much simplier terms. And while I wasn’t sure at the time I obviously never forget their teachings.

Often when reading about the Mystics they did not understand why they were chosen. Most looked around themself and immediately seen others that in their mind they would have chosen. That also says something in that those other souls may not need the intercession. These are the quite Saints whom no-one ever hears about. Day in and day they follow the path without complaint and ask for nothing in return. The send up their offerengs and suffereing for others they feel need, so unselfish they are.

You period of dryness, I assure you someone, somewhere has been Blessed because of your relentless devotion. Confession, the Holy Sacrifice and Communion is the path all else are lifelines to keep one stable and interceed for others. Had you prayed the Rosary daily for 15-years, every one of those Rosarys was acknowledged. Not one wasn’t heard or applied where needed. What you do also doesn’t go un-acknowledged. Have faith, don’t give up the fight, the children of the Rosary are very special. And Our Lady hasn’t worked through the Holy Spirit to lose what She set out to acheive. When She stated, in the end, my Immaculate Heart will Triumph. She was telling you in advance how this is going to be.

I hope your period of struggle isn’t too heavy or discouraging for you.

God Bless, Gary

 

[Alfonsus]

You will do OK without some extra external devotion to Our Lady and stick with honoring Mary as defined in the Liturgy.
Just focus on Liturgy of the Hour (Divine Office), Mass, and Lectio Divina.

Those are the spiritual basis of monasticism. Many Carthusian monk do not pray Rosary, but none will judge them un-traditional. They do honor Mary as prescribed in Liturgy.

 

[TuAutem]

I proudly sing a Gregorian “Ave Maria” once every Sunday. What bothers me is that it’s the most solemn, quiet, and beautiful moment in the whole Mass that I go to! This isn’t even a traditional Mass, either. Every other part is soaked in lackluster guitar music and “meh” singing, but when we get to Mary’s unaccompanied chant… my goodness, the room is still as a tomb, and everyone is intently focused on honouring Mary. To me, this speaks of an imbalance in the whole faith.

You may say that my experience with the awed and hushed Marian chant is only because Christ is present because Mary is so present, but in that case why is there such an atmosphere of “blah” during the actual prayers to Christ?

I think this, and your other point about not understanding why the Hail Mary is an appropriate way to honour the Trinity, gets to the heart of your confusion.

Actually before I address this point, there is another closely related one, where you say “Mary is not the Gate, Jesus is the Gate, how can there be two gates?” Well, what if we say that the Church is the Gate? It is through the Church that we are reconciled to the Father. Surely you would not disagree with that. But of course, you will say, there is no contradiction there because the Church is Christ’s, simply by being in the Church we are approaching the Father through Christ, that’s what the definition of the Church is.

The Catechism says (§773) ““The Church’s structure is totally ordered to the holiness of Christ’s members. And holiness is measured according to the ‘great mystery’ in which the Bride responds with the gift of love to the gift of the Bridegroom.” Mary goes before us all in the holiness that is the Church’s mystery as “the bride without spot or wrinkle.” This is why the “Marian” dimension of the Church precedes the “Petrine.”” By the same token, I think a lot of your confusion comes from thinking of Mary as if she were somehow separate from the Church.

In other words, as the body of Christ, the Church grows in holiness through Christ’s victory on the Cross. Mary is a member of that body, and in fact, of all the believers, she is the most perfect, the most ‘full of grace’. It is in Mary’s relationship with God that the relationship between creator and created is at its most perfect: in Mary, the Church is truly Church, at her best. Therefore–and this is the dimension to Marian devotion that I think you are missing–it is in Mary that our prayer is most perfect. The prayer of Mary to God is the most perfectly in accord with Jesus’ teaching and will–more perfect than our prayers (since our adherence to Christ is less perfect), Mary prays to God the way we wish we could. When, unfortunately, our own prayer is quite “blah”, as you put it, that only brings this into greater relief.

Mary’s prayer, though, as most perfect prayer, is as 100% perfect–in devotion, in God-centeredness, in total dedication to God’s will–as it is possible for any creature’s prayer to be. This is why even talking about Marian devotion as somehow in competition with devotion to God is non-sensical: Mary prays from within the body of Christ, as its most perfect member, her prayers cannot be anything but fully focused on God–and following her, seeking to imitate her holiness, we cannot do anything but become fully focused on God ourselves. What command does Mary give in the Bible, after all? ** Do whatever he tells you.**

 

[CaptCrunch73]

Hi I just did a quick look in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and it says (there are other paragraphs in CCC).

2675 Beginning with Mary’s unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries. In countless hymns and antiphons expressing this prayer, two movements usually alternate with one another: the first “magnifies” the Lord for the “great things” he did for his lowly servant and through her for all human beings the second entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God to the Mother of Jesus, because she now knows the humanity which, in her, the Son of God espoused.

2680 Prayer is primarily addressed to the Father; it can also be directed toward Jesus, particularly by the invocation of his holy name: “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us sinners.”

2681 “No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’, except by the Holy Spirit” (1 Cor 12:3). The Church invites us to invoke the Holy Spirit as the interior Teacher of Christian prayer.

2682 Because of Mary’s singular cooperation with the action of the Holy Spirit, the Church loves to pray in communion with the Virgin Mary, to magnify with her the great things the Lord has done for her, and to entrust supplications and praises to her.

Now, since this is the Traditional Catholicism Forum I’ll also add the Catechism of the Council of Trent (emphasis mine)

For The Blessed Virgin Mary
To this sort of prayer belongs the first part of the Angelic Salutation, when used by us as a prayer: Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women. For in these words we render to God the highest praise and return Him most gracious thanks, because He has bestowed all His heavenly gifts on the most holy Virgin; and at the same time we congratulate the Virgin herself on her singular privileges.
To this form of thanksgiving the Church of God has wisely added prayers and an invocation addressed to the most holy Mother of God, by which we piously and humbly fly to her patronage, in order that, by her intercession, she may reconcile God to us sinners and may obtain for us those blessings which we stand in need of in this life and in the life to come. We, therefore, exiled children of Eve, who dwell in this vale of tears, should constantly beseech the Mother of mercy, the advocate of the faithful, to pray for us sinners. In this prayer we should earnestly implore her help and assistance; for that she possesses exalted merits with God, and that she is most desirous to assist us by her prayers, no one can doubt without impiety and wickedness.

 

[TrueLight]

Hi I just did a quick look in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and it says (there are other paragraphs in CCC).

2675 Beginning with Mary’s unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries. In countless hymns and antiphons expressing this prayer, two movements usually alternate with one another: the first “magnifies” the Lord for the “great things” he did for his lowly servant and through her for all human beings the second entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God to the Mother of Jesus, because she now knows the humanity which, in her, the Son of God espoused.

2680 Prayer is primarily addressed to the Father; it can also be directed toward Jesus, particularly by the invocation of his holy name: “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us sinners.”

2681 “No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’, except by the Holy Spirit” (1 Cor 12:3). The Church invites us to invoke the Holy Spirit as the interior Teacher of Christian prayer.

2682 Because of Mary’s singular cooperation with the action of the Holy Spirit, the Church loves to pray in communion with the Virgin Mary, to magnify with her the great things the Lord has done for her, and to entrust supplications and praises to her.

Now, since this is the Traditional Catholicism Forum I’ll also add the Catechism of the Council of Trent (emphasis mine)

For The Blessed Virgin Mary
To this sort of prayer belongs the first part of the Angelic Salutation, when used by us as a prayer: Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women. For in these words we render to God the highest praise and return Him most gracious thanks, because He has bestowed all His heavenly gifts on the most holy Virgin; and at the same time we congratulate the Virgin herself on her singular privileges.
To this form of thanksgiving the Church of God has wisely added prayers and an invocation addressed to the most holy Mother of God, by which we piously and humbly fly to her patronage, in order that, by her intercession, she may reconcile God to us sinners and may obtain for us those blessings which we stand in need of in this life and in the life to come. We, therefore, exiled children of Eve, who dwell in this vale of tears, should constantly beseech the Mother of mercy, the advocate of the faithful, to pray for us sinners. In this prayer we should earnestly implore her help and assistance; for that she possesses exalted merits with God, and that she is most desirous to assist us by her prayers, no one can doubt without impiety and wickedness.

All of that is well and good.

Now I wonder how much of what I see and hear these days is pious tradition. We seem to go WAY beyond what is stated here.

 

[GloriousOrder]

Mary prays from within the body of Christ, as its most perfect member, her prayers cannot be anything but fully focused on God–and following her, seeking to imitate her holiness, we cannot do anything but become fully focused on God ourselves. What command does Mary give in the Bible, after all? ** Do whatever he tells you.**

Sorry to cut the rest off, but this seems to be the most important part (for me).

The fact that the blessed Virgin is greatest in the Hierarchy of Grace, beyond even the angels, is indisputable. Such a holy and humble woman not only deserves such a place for the trials she went through in life, but merits it eternally by her prayers. Seeking to imitate her holiness and to follow her, however, is not the same as praying to her, ontologically-speaking.

“Hail, Holy Queen” and “Hail Mary” are directed to she who is already directed toward God. Why don’t we just take her example and direct ourselves toward God proximately? I’m referring to personal prayers here, not the liturgy (of course). TrueLight quoted the relevant verses from St. John’s Gospel. Our Lord never mentioned anyone to pray to except the Father, through the Son, and in the Holy Spirit.

If Marian devotion were so crucial, why isn’t it even hinted at in the Bible? “Do whatever He tells you” is an injunction to the servants, so that His first public miracle might proceed. Our Lady is present at the Crucifixion, Ascension, and Pentecost, but she is accorded no special place by the words; yes, she is given as Mother to all who would become beloved disciples, but that doesn’t mean we must petition her constantly. I tend to think she is most pleased when we say “blessed Mary, pray for me”, and then direct everything else to God.

I mean to criticise no person’s faith here. This is my own set of inquiries into a matter which give me pause. Excuse a neophyte who is still more Protestant in mindset than anything else…

 

[TrueLight]

This is not true at all…

this is not the reason why people honour Mary so much.

St Louis de Montfort is a good example of this. He fought the Jansenist heresy, where they did see God as very distant and unapproachable. He taught of God differently, and also he taught devotion to Mary. They disagreed with him and persecuted him on both accounts.

It is true though that some are afraid to approach Jesus directly. I have had people in person tell me that Mary is completely perfect and that we are too imperfect to approach Jesus directly. In fact, it was also mentioned in a thread here about approaching the king.

 

[Warrenton]

I mean to criticise no person’s faith here. This is my own set of inquiries into a matter which give me pause. Excuse a neophyte who is still more Protestant in mindset than anything else…

Good morning, Glorious.

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head right there!

The Catholic mindset (at least, traditionally) is to permit something if it does not violate an explicit or implied tenet of the deposit of faith.

That is why Catholics, and I would include the Orthodox within this framework, by the bye, have such a remarkable diversity within their churches. Consider the difference between Franciscans, Dominicans, Benedictines, Norbertines, or the temperment of the average French Catholic compared to the average Irish Catholic.

It is easy to overlook, but that approach is what distinguishes Protestants, who largely will only permit that which appears to them explicitly authorized. Consider: the pope took longer to excommunicate Queen Elizabeth than many Protestant sects take to break off from one another - and she was running a virtual competitor church. Why? Because Rome almost always looks for every possible way to accomodate those who desire unity - that was Christ’s own exhortation to the incipient Church.

At the risk of beating the drum too often, if you prefer a more - how to put it? - streamlined prayer life, go to it. You will be in excellent company. The main danger arises only when we refuse to count ourselves part of the greater whole, in the conviction that we are holier than our bretheren - when we try to make our mansion in the Father’s house the whole house!

Cheers!

 

[GaryTaylor]

Sorry to cut the rest off, but this seems to be the most important part (for me).

The fact that the blessed Virgin is greatest in the Hierarchy of Grace, beyond even the angels, is indisputable. Such a holy and humble woman not only deserves such a place for the trials she went through in life, but merits it eternally by her prayers. Seeking to imitate her holiness and to follow her, however, is not the same as praying to her, ontologically-speaking.

“Hail, Holy Queen” and “Hail Mary” are directed to she who is already directed toward God. Why don’t we just take her example and direct ourselves toward God proximately? I’m referring to personal prayers here, not the liturgy (of course). TrueLight quoted the relevant verses from St. John’s Gospel. Our Lord never mentioned anyone to pray to except the Father, through the Son, and in the Holy Spirit.

If Marian devotion were so crucial, why isn’t it even hinted at in the Bible? “Do whatever He tells you” is an injunction to the servants, so that His first public miracle might proceed. Our Lady is present at the Crucifixion, Ascension, and Pentecost, but she is accorded no special place by the words; yes, she is given as Mother to all who would become beloved disciples, but that doesn’t mean we must petition her constantly. I tend to think she is most pleased when we say “blessed Mary, pray for me”, and then direct everything else to God.

I mean to criticise no person’s faith here. This is my own set of inquiries into a matter which give me pause. Excuse a neophyte who is still more Protestant in mindset than anything else…

I don’t believe anyone has told you, you must partake in devotions to the Blessed Mother. Very much the opposite. Thats your choice. However why is so important to you what others choose to do? Doe’s this somehow effect your life? Its been clearly explained to you why and what others are doing. Yet you somehow ignored this, and think you should decide or judge how Catholics worship. What is Catholic Doctrine is in fact required belief.

 

[TimothyH]

Nothing like posting something then essentially saying if you disagree with me, you disagree with the church and and therefore you are a heretic.

No, no, no… perhaps I could have been clearer. I meant disagreemeng with Mary as Queen of Heaven which is a dogma of the Church, not disagreement with me. Or perhapse the last paragraph was simply my pride. If God decides to let me into heaven, I will spend a loooooooooooooong time in purgatory burning off that pride.

John 14:13-14
"And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Those words were spoken at the last supper specifically to twelve apostles, the leaders of his Church, bishop/priests. They were not spoken to you and I, general disciples or “The crowd.” It is the leadership of the Church as a whole which has been granted the keys to the kingdom and the judicial/legistlative authority to bind and loose. Not you and I individually. The context is the Last Supper, the first Mass, and the Apostolic leaders of the Church.

1John 5:14-15
“And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: and if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.”

Again regarding context, this verse was written as part of a larger discourse about praying for forgiveness from sin and the fact that if we have venial sin, whatever forgiveness we ask for will be granted. The full passage is:

I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God. And we have this confidence in him, that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in regard to whatever we ask, we know that what we have asked him for is ours. If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. (1 John 5:13-16)

We will get what we ask for if it is according to God’s will and some things we are not to ask for including forgiveness of our own mortal sin or the mortal sin of others (which is the domain of priests).

I see your point about going directly to Jesus the King and no one is saying that we shouldn’t do that. Jesus invites us to do that daily at the Mass. But it is a great act of humility to not go directly to the king but to go through the Queen Mother. Do we not go to the priest for forgiveness and entry into God’s temporal kingdom through pennance and Baptism and not directly to Jesus? Do we not go to the priest who makes Jesus present in the Eucharist and not directly to Jesus? Do we not go to the Church as the authority on truth and not to Jesus directly in our own fallible minds? We humble ourselves every day and don’t even realize it.

Lately, I have been starting my prayers with, “Mary, present me to your son Jesus Christ that I may speak with him.”

-Tim-

 

[Monica4316]

All of that is well and good.

Now I wonder how much of what I see and hear these days is pious tradition. We seem to go WAY beyond what is stated here.

what do you mean?

the Catechism tells us what we basically must believe as Catholics… it doesn’t give us ALLLL of Tradition, that would fill a hundred books

It is true though that some are afraid to approach Jesus directly. I have had people in person tell me that Mary is completely perfect and that we are too imperfect to approach Jesus directly. In fact, it was also mentioned in a thread here about approaching the king.

yes. and the Saints talked about this too, but I suggest that this isn’t related to fear… because when these same Saints talked to Jesus, they were very close to Him and not at all distant. I don’t think it’s fear, but they had a deep knowledge of their imperfection so they asked Mary to help them come to Jesus better, - which she did, and then they talked to Jesus - in such a personal way too. So it’s not like they never came close to Jesus. They did, they just did this with the help of Mary. Even St Therese who was very much devoted to Our Lady, and she trusted God so much. So I think it’s a bit different

 

[Monica4316]

I have noticed (and it’s been said many times) that Protestantism is “either/or”, and Catholicism is “both/and”… regarding the question: how can Mary be the Gate, if Jesus is the Gate? that is a good example of this

Jesus is the Gate to the Father. We can only come to the Father through Him, as He said. We can’t go to the Father through Mary and NOT Jesus. There is only one way.

But the Gate to Jesus, and to a closer relationship with God, could be Mary. She is together with Jesus. We still go to the Father through Him.

We go through the Church too.