The blessed Virgin and Traditionalism generally-speaking

[Te_Deum]

Believe me, if I were a woman I’d be much more inured to the idea of Marian devotion. I assume it’s easier for a female to relate to her than to Christ. That’s “excusable” from my point of view, but I think the fact that I’m a male leads me to be more heroically-inspired by Jesus.

You shouldn’t have done that.

I’ve been working under the illusion that you’re female and so I’ve been using the soft-touch !

I actually find it rather easy to relate to the Blessed Virgin as a male because I look on it in military terms really. She’s my Queen. More personally, she’s my Mother. I am armed with a sword that sings “Ave Maria!” 150 times and a scapular that shields me from the Enemy and a medal that proclaims my allegiance to her and her Divine Son.

Now, no more soft touch! Please place your neck just right. I don’t like to have to repeat blows !

I respect Newman… let’s see!

It should be a good foundation. If you read it, which I hope you do, you should be ready to progress on to the heavier stuff !

 

[GloriousOrder]

You shouldn’t have done that.

I’ve been working under the illusion that you’re female and so I’ve been using the soft-touch !

Br. J.R. worked under that assumption too, and look where that got him! …

I actually find it rather easy to relate to the Blessed Virgin as a male because I look on it in military terms really. She’s my Queen. More personally, she’s my Mother. I am armed with a sword that sings “Ave Maria!” 150 times and a scapular that shields me from the Enemy and a medal that proclaims my allegiance to her and her Divine Son.

Trying to become a heroic, virtuous, and great man inspired by the classical school of Cicero, Cato, and the Fathers , I find the devotion to Christ the King, as great leader of mankind and perfect Emperor of the Cosmos, much more inspiring myself. Instead of the Scapular, I should rather wear a medal of the Holy Ghost coming out of the clouds in power, and a St. Michael scapular, wondrous and ancient Archangel, captain of Heaven’s Armies. Your allegiance is to King John, not to Queen Elinor! She must be honoured, but we don’t go through her so we may first bow to the King!

Now, no more soft touch! Please place your neck just right. I don’t like to have to repeat blows !

Arise, knave, and take your best stance!

 

[Te_Deum]

Br. J.R. worked under that assumption too, and look where that got him! …

I’m not J.R . I’m more King Lawler !

Trying to become a heroic, virtuous, and great man inspired by the classical school of Cicero, Cato, and the Fathers , I find the devotion to Christ the King, as great leader of mankind and perfect Emperor of the Cosmos, much more inspiring myself. Instead of the Scapular, I should rather wear a medal of the Holy Ghost coming out of the clouds in power, and a St. Michael scapular, wondrous and ancient Archangel, captain of Heaven’s Armies. Your allegiance is to King John, not to Queen Elinor! She must be honoured, but we don’t go through her so we may first bow to the King!

But it is I who wears the medal of the Holy Ghost’s spouse as it gives Him the greatest pleasure when He find’s her servants on earth! His greatest joy was when He found Mary on earth and he bids her to recreate herself in the hearts of the faithful for he does not wish to lose the joy of their first meeting! It is I who will sit with Holy Michael the Archangel and toast many a cup and sing many a song on the eve of battle, when the skies darken and all the forgotten demons of hell pour forth upon the world armed for war, and we will spit in the demon’s eye and raise the banner of the Holy Cross, for he is the foremost of the angelic servants of Our Lady in Heaven’s court and considers it the greatest honour to do her bidding and come to the aid of one of her servants. When the winds of midnight blow and the odour of the dragon’s breathe climbs up our necks his sword shall be there!

My allegiance is to the King. I give Him my all. I deliver Him my very self through the maternal and royal hands of His Mother, His Queen!

Arise, knave, and take your best stance!

Begone ye cur! I will approach battle with nothing but poor farmer’s pitchfork and by our Lady you will see before you Lancelot, Richard the Lionheart and Philip II of France, you will see my sword drawn in the light of Our Lady’s radiance, as she, like the moon reflects the light of the sun, reflects the light of her Son, so I shall like the silvery lochs of my homeland, reflect her light! And you shall be blinded and cast down.

In short: bring it !

 

[GloriousOrder]

To be serious for a moment, and I mean utterly existentially serious:

IF our world worked like the worlds of Star Wars’ Jedi, Warhammer 40k’s Knights, or Lord of the Rings’ Armies, I’d be all for Marian devotion and such lofty words. I always had a hope that, upon being baptised, I’d experience the Eucharist in some glorious sacramental way. When I finally was entered into the Church this past April, it ended up being just like a stale cracker (forgive me Lord), which disappointed my expectations so completely. I had this image of a grand sacramental magical Church, filled with awe at the power of God overcoming satanic hordes via faith, reason, logic, scapular, rosary, and the sword of prayer.

What I found, instead, is a Church in political, bureaucratic turmoil. Wherever faith is strong, it’s only because of devotion to Mary. All the most Christ-centered priests I’ve met have been modernists. The more they were devoted to Mary, the more conservative and traditional they were! It leads me to see that centuries-old trad Catholicism IS Marian by its deepest roots. I often wonder what it’d be like if the whole Church had a righteous, classical, virtuous, heroic S.S.P.X. view of the Universe, and finally went on intellectual crusades to conquer the horizons of the Earth, just focusing on Christ 100% rather than our Lady! Imagine grand churches with massive high altars dedicated to Jesus, and only one glorious Lady Chapel per 40 churches, rather than 40 Lady Chapels per church…

The reason I can’t attach on to this Church devotion to Mary is specifically because I just haven’t come to feel the epicness you guys feel over it. You are totally blessed to actually believe and think and see a grand spiritual war going on. No matter how much I try to imagine it (and I come close sometimes), the secular nature of our quiet world always gets to me. All this grand knightly language would sway me immediately IF IT POINTED TO SOMETHING REAL, where sacramentals actually did glow with a powerful light of Heaven, sending mystical distress signals to Angels. As it is, I’ve not seen one Angel, let alone Mary or God or Christ, nor have I experienced a presence or heard a voice or felt anything at all… in fact, all seems dreadfully silent and empty!

Clarity in all things… at least, clarity.

 

[TimothyH]

The contention is that the message of God, in history, is precisely: you become just, you become righteous, you have faith, and that you improve to become like unto God. There’s a big difference between having faith in God, and depreciating your faith so much that you feel unworthy to address God proximately, and must do so via the blessed Virgin.

No one depricates their faith by going to Jesus through Mary. It is more like humbling oneself.

I’ll suggest as other’s have, some good marian material, perhapse Kolb or DeMontfort. I’d also urge a review of the Church teaching about Mary as the Mediatrix of Grace, which is accepted by the Universal Church as all but dogma.

You are justified by Jesus, but the grace you recieve because of that justification comes through Mary. The grace any Christian recieves at baptism, even when St. Paul himself was baptized, comes through Mary. Every time a sinner steps into a confessional and is returned to a state of sanctifying grace, that grace comes through Mary. Every grace recieved by any Catholic because they received the Eucharist, knelt in adoration in front of the Blessed Sacrament, read the Bible or uttered any prayer whatsoever, comes to you personally through Mary.

And that grace comes to you or is withheld from you because Mary, who’s will is perfectly conformed to God’s, decided that it should be so. This is not my teaching, this is the teaching of the Universal Church, whether it is explicit in scripture or not.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

To be serious for a moment, and I mean utterly existentially serious:

IF our world worked like the worlds of Star Wars’ Jedi, Warhammer 40k’s Knights, or Lord of the Rings’ Armies, I’d be all for Marian devotion and such lofty words. I always had a hope that, upon being baptised, I’d experience the Eucharist in some glorious sacramental way. When I finally was entered into the Church this past April, it ended up being just like a stale cracker (forgive me Lord), which disappointed my expectations so completely. I had this image of a grand sacramental magical Church, filled with awe at the power of God overcoming satanic hordes via faith, reason, logic, scapular, rosary, and the sword of prayer.

What I found, instead, is a Church in political, bureaucratic turmoil. Wherever faith is strong, it’s only because of devotion to Mary. All the most Christ-centered priests I’ve met have been modernists. The more they were devoted to Mary, the more conservative and traditional they were! It leads me to see that centuries-old trad Catholicism IS Marian by its deepest roots. I often wonder what it’d be like if the whole Church had a righteous, classical, virtuous, heroic S.S.P.X. view of the Universe, and finally went on intellectual crusades to conquer the horizons of the Earth, just focusing on Christ 100% rather than our Lady! Imagine grand churches with massive high altars dedicated to Jesus, and only one glorious Lady Chapel per 40 churches, rather than 40 Lady Chapels per church…

The reason I can’t attach on to this Church devotion to Mary is specifically because I just haven’t come to feel the epicness you guys feel over it. You are totally blessed to actually believe and think and see a grand spiritual war going on. No matter how much I try to imagine it (and I come close sometimes), the secular nature of our quiet world always gets to me. All this grand knightly language would sway me immediately IF IT POINTED TO SOMETHING REAL, where sacramentals actually did glow with a powerful light of Heaven, sending mystical distress signals to Angels. As it is, I’ve not seen one Angel, let alone Mary or God or Christ, nor have I experienced a presence or heard a voice or felt anything at all… in fact, all seems dreadfully silent and empty!

Clarity in all things… at least, clarity.

It is there for the asking. All you have to do is ask for it.

-Tim-

 

[TrueLight]

You are justified by Jesus, but the grace you recieve because of that justification comes through Mary. The grace any Christian recieves at baptism, even when St. Paul himself was baptized, comes through Mary. Every time a sinner steps into a confessional and is returned to a state of sanctifying grace, that grace comes through Mary. Every grace recieved by any Catholic because they received the Eucharist, knelt in adoration in front of the Blessed Sacrament, read the Bible or uttered any prayer whatsoever, comes to you personally through Mary.

And that grace comes to you or is withheld from you because Mary, who’s will is perfectly conformed to God’s, decided that it should be so. This is not my teaching, this is the teaching of the Universal Church, whether it is explicit in scripture or not.

-Tim-

Hi Tim,

Can you provide some Church document references about ALL graces coming from Mary, including sanctifying grace, as well as the granting or withholding of grace? Not apparitions, not Saint Louis de Monfort, but church documents.

I am actually quite shocked and concerned about the post above.

Is this formal Catholic teaching, or something personally revealed to you?

I just recently studied Sanctifying grace, and for reference, here is what the CCC has to say: Sanctifying Grace

2023 Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.

I would much appreciate it.

Thanks.

 

[TimothyH]

Hi Tim,

Can you provide some Church document references about ALL graces coming from Mary, including sanctifying grace? I am actually quite shocked by the post above.

Thanks.

I actually deleted that post. I didn’t think it was charitable and wrote it partly in anger and so deleted it. You caught it quick and I’m sorry for having written it.

In many encyclicals and bulls, Mary is called the “administrator of redemption” and 'treasurer of our peace with God."

While I don’t think the page references sanctifying grace specifically, many of the documents referenced clearly say “all” grace. Have a look at ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4a.htm. I picked a couple at random for this post.

Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, *** 24, 1891, 196.
… it is right to say, that nothing at all of that very great treasury of all grace which the Lord brought us–for ‘grace and truth came through Jesus Christ’ [Jn 1.17]–nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, since God so wills, so that just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother.

Pius XI, Encyclical, Ingravescentibus malis, Sept 29, 1937, AAS 29, 1927, 380.
… we know also that all things are imparted to us from God the Greatest and Best, through the hands of the Mother of God.

-Tim-

 

[Te_Deum]

All grace comes through Mary because the very author of grace Himself came to us through her virginal womb. God dispenses with His grace at the will of Our Lady because her will is His.

You really have to understand the intimate relationship between Mary and the Godhead to get it.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Here’s Pope Benedicts August 16th 2011 homily for the Feast of the Assumption.

search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7l0SnlZO4X0AfbRXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEydmpkOG5lBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA0RGRDVfODY-/SIG=122elulqv/EXP=1314328210/**http%3a//www.zenit.org/article-33198%3fl=english

I can’t remember the encyclical or the Pope, though I do have it here, I would have to seach. However the translation from latin to english would be generates grace. I know St Louis de Montfort stated this also. However its in a Bull also. I’ll come across it.

Peace

 

[GloriousOrder]

Wow, this thread turns out to be a treasure chest (of heresy!)

As much as I rant, rail, and rave against such things, the care you put into defending traditional understandings of Mary is laudable. We appreciate it, we infidels!

 

[TimothyH]

All grace comes through Mary because the very author of grace Himself came to us through her virginal womb. God dispenses with His grace at the will of Our Lady because her will is His.

You really have to understand the intimate relationship between Mary and the Godhead to get it.

I was reading an article in Homiletic & Pastoral Review Magazine last night from the October 2010 edition titled “To Jesus, through Mary, in the spirit of St. Joseph” by Jayson M. Brunelle. Unfortunately the article is no on the online version of the magazine.

But the article reminds how Mary gave birth not only to the head - Jesus Christ - but also the body which is the Church. Since the Church is God’s instrument of salvation in the world, Mary is the person through whom God’s instrument of salvation comes to us. The article further reminds that Mary does not cease to be the Mother of Christ or the Mother of the Church. This hit home for me. The very mechanism through which salvation comes to each one of us - the Church - comes to us through the Blessed Virgin.

So I’m wondering what you guys think of this. And I ask in all sincerity. Does not the Eucharist come to us through Mary?

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

Wow, this thread turns out to be a treasure chest (of heresy!)

As much as I rant, rail, and rave against such things, the care you put into defending traditional understandings of Mary is laudable. We appreciate it, we infidels!

I’m not a prophet but I wouldn’t be surpised if she turns you into the biggest blubbering sobbing, soft-hearted, goo-goo gaa-gaa, baby of marian devotion who panics if he can’t find his rosary for like five seconds and buys the most expensive and biggest heart shaped miraculous medal he can find and wears it in the shower and to bed.

Yea, I think this one will suit you fine.

She is beautiful. She is calling you. And she loves you.

We love you too.

-Tim-

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Second Vatican Council Chapter XIII of Lumen Gentium tells us the Blessed Virgin Mother generates us. It is desribed in various translations differently. The Original Latin text states “generavit” She generates us. It is a maternal act of generation.

Thus our Lord use’s the term “Born Again” when speaking of Baptism. “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God” We are Born again by Baptism, We are generated into the life of sanctifying grace.

St Paul tells us in his first Epistle that we Catholics participate in the divine nature, and this is confirmed at the Council of Trent, that sanctifying grace is a created participation of the divine nature. The supernatural life is generated in us at Baptism through the maternal action of the Blessed Virgin Mother at the same time.

Saint Pius X and Pope Leo XIII taught that all graces come to us through the maternal hands of the Blessed Mother.

So just as the Blessed Mother generated the Son of God, a person who pre-existed, into the life of nature {a natural body and soul through Her maternal action} so with us she takes pre-existing persons, meaning we who have been created by God but not yet living the life of sanctifying grace, through Baptism.

It is important I would say to understand, She is YOUR MOTHER and thats literally.

Peace

 

[stanncie]

Hi Glorious!

I’m no theologian and just of average intelligence at best therefore i will not give you arguments or books to read just advice and I have some questions.

What i plainly see from reading your posts is that you are a very intelligent deep thinker analytical type. This is great in a way but I think in this case it’s a big barrier. You seem to want to understand everything to the last detail before you will accept it. I read that you just came in to the church so now it’s not an option. You have to accept it!
Now it’s the time for obedience and humility. Unfortunately when a person if blessed with many gifts it tends to also produce lots of pride in that person. I’m sorry to say that I see that in you from the different threads. I’m sorry if that’s not the case but I want you to think about it.
Simple solution, ask Jesus everyday to show you the truth about his Mother and honor her with ONE Hail Mary. Now that’s not too hard is it?

As far as not feeling much now that you are in the church, may I ask what you are doing now that you are a catholic? Are you feeding the poor? Are you visiting the sick and those in jail? Are you donating your time not just your money to help those less fortunate than yourself? Are you praying in front of abortion clinics to try to defend those poor babies being murdered everyday? In other words are you serving our Lord like he asked us to?

Again I apologize if you are serving in some capacity but I rarely hear anyone who truly serves to their capacity ever complain about feeling spiritually dry. You are either too busy to worry about it at the time or are so filled with joy from being used as an instrument of God. Again there are exceptions like Mother Theresa but I think those are rare.

Now that you are Catholic get off your pew and do something!

 

[stanncie]

I’m not a prophet but I wouldn’t be surpised if she turns you into the biggest blubbering sobbing, soft-hearted, goo-goo gaa-gaa, baby of marian devotion who panics if he can’t find his rosary for like five seconds and buys the most expensive and biggest heart shaped miraculous medal he can find and wears it in the shower and to bed.

Yea, I think this one will suit you fine.

She is beautiful. She is calling you. And she loves you.

We love you too.

-Tim-

Lol! I really like that medal I might get it
Glorius I forgot to say it but I agree with Timothy Mary is calling to you this is why you are inquiring in this thread. She loves you so much and once she gets a hold of you she won’t let you go. Mary is the main reason i came back to my Catholic faith without her i would have been lost for much longer or maybe never have come back

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Sorry, but I think you’re humanizing our Lord way too much. He is full man, but He is also fully God, which means He contains all the wisdom of infinity and eternity in His being. To think that Jesus would be so petty as to get cross with us for “dodging” His mum is really very odd! Remember when someone came along and told Him that His mother and brethren/cousins were outside, waiting to see Him? He retorted that those who do the will of God are His mother and His brethren. This says soooo much! It’s amazing what dignity God has called us to, via the name of Jesus.

I think you’re missing the point between what God can do and what God did do. God can wipe away all sin with the flick of his finger but what He did was die on the cross. God can make a book appear out of thin air with His teachings but what He did was have His faithful humans write it instead. God can appear both fully human and fully divine out of thin air but what He did was choose to be borne by the Virgin Mary. God can make it so no religion is necessary to find Him but what He did was found a religion and a Church. God can make it so you could know Him fully without anyone’s help but what God did was create these people so you would know Him better. It’s funny because you acknowledge that you depend on people like Moses, David, Judith, Sirach, Mark, Luke, John, Matthew, Jude, James, and all the other Scripture writers to give you knowledge of Jesus and yet you’re scandalized by the belief that knowing His mother will help you know Him?

Lastly if you were to truly practice what you preach then you would put down the Bible and wing it since no devotion to anyone is needed in order to have a relationship with Christ. Something tells me you won’t do this and that you will rightfully argue that the Bible is the Word of God and that you have devotion to those (the Scripture writers) who have God in them, and I will respond that this is the same reason for why we have a devotion to Our Lady because she has God in her! Then you will say but the Scripture writers gave us God’s Word through the power of the Holy Spirit and I will reply but Mary gave us Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit! Don’t you see that you are to venerate Mary as much as the Jews venerated the Ark? Do you carry Mary everywhere you go like thy carried the Ark? Do you protect Mary at all costs like they protected Ark? Do you give her the highest place under God in your life like the Jews did with the Ark?

Mary is no small potato and she is not someone you can just push aside without affecting your faith. Protestantism has shown all too well that** abandoning the Mother is but one step from abandoning the Son.**

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

The Secret of the Rosary by St Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort
True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary by St Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort
The Glories of Mary by St Alphonsus Ligouri
Devotion to the Sacred Heart by Fr Croiset (an essential read to see how devotion to mary engenders devotion to her son Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ)
Divine Mercy in My soul (again to see how devotion to Mary engenders devotion to her son Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ)
The life of St Dominic by Augusta T Drane
The writings of St Thomas Aquinas on Our Lady

And of course the relevant papal encyclicals

That should keep you busy for some time

The Admirable Heart of Mary by Saint John Eudes

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

All true men are Blessed Momma’s Boys!:thumbsup:

 

[Te_Deum]

All true men are Blessed Momma’s Boys!:thumbsup:

This is it in a nut-shell.