The Blessed Virgin Mary & more

[pjtinner]

I’m tired of being bushwhacked by non believers so I guess I’d better ask…

Regarding the Annunciation: Was Mary chosen or did she choose? How could a child make a decision of this magnatude?

How old were Mary and Joseph when they were wed?

In view of the fact that Mary was present at Pentecost; Why didn’t we hear more from her after the crucifiction of Jesus? Why didn’t we hear more from her before Pentecost?

Isn’t it unhealthy for all these people to be drinking from the same cup; why do we continue to receive the Body AND Blood of Jesus. Isn’t the reception of the Blood a redundency if you have just received the Body AND Blood of Jesus in the Host?

 

[DJK100]

I will try to answer some for you. Others may be able to give you more in depth if I am in error.

Regarding the Annunciation: Was Mary chosen or did she choose?

 

[pjtinner]

I like your response to the Annunciation question. The problem is that in order for a person to make a “real” commitment, take a vow, do something legally recognized by the church…that person must be eligible to make such a decision. I believe the key words here are “free will.” Normally we ALL have a “free will.” However, the decisions of a child based on "free will,’ I just have a hard time with this; sometimes.

I don’t believe the Catholic Church today would either perform or recognize the marriage of Joseph and Mary. If all you consider is their age difference and their intent… no. However, it is sure their marriage was recognized at that time or they would have been stoned.

The Blessed Virgin Mary was never just one of the crowd. She was not an apostle. She is and will always be the most elevated human of mankind. (2nd to Jesus Christ of course.) This was true from her conception. Why then do we hear little from her in scripture. It puzzles me to see scripture pass her by.

Regarding communion; I don’t set aside the question of health. I believe having all these people drink from the same cup nears recklessness. On the rest, you agree with me.

 

[bmullins]

You’re also comparing today’s standards to the standards of first century Jerusalem. A person was an adult at the age of 12, not 18. We wouldn’t legally Mary a 14 or 16 year old girl today, but we confirm them in many instances. Times have changed. We treat 14 and 16 year old’s like babies, too young to make decisions… but that’s a recent event. In the past, a person was considered an adult and given much more responsibility at a much earlier age.

 

[1ke]

please respect forum rules of one topic per thread.

 

[midori]

Regarding the Annunciation: Was Mary chosen or did she choose? How could a child make a decision of this magnatude?

Both, of course. Regarding the second part of your question, does anyone really, really, really think that the Annunciation was the first clue Mary had that God was working in her life? Or do you think that God would have given her some sort of spiritual preparation? Do you think that someone who was so unique in all of humanity wouldn’t have noticed that she was… unique? There’s a difference between recognizing one’s differences in a prideful way versus a humble way, of course.

How old were Mary and Joseph when they were wed?

Apocryphal literature has her betrothed to Joseph on her 14th birthday, when he was 33. I want to also say there are traditions which suggest that he was married previously. You can take it or leave it; it doesn’t make much difference.

In view of the fact that Mary was present at Pentecost; Why didn’t we hear more from her after the crucifiction of Jesus? Why didn’t we hear more from her before Pentecost?

Mary was present at Cana, Mary was mentioned briefly during his ministry, Mary was present at the foot of the cross, Mary was present at the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Usually, when the Bible dwells on her presence during his ministry, it’s to a profound effect— Mary is able to obtain graces for us that Jesus might not be willing to grant us on his own. Faith is more important than mere biology. Jesus left Mary with a new spiritual relationship of not just with John, but a universal motherhood over all Christians and humanity. Mary, who had already been overshadowed by the Holy Spirit at the Incarnation, was also an important figure who was present in the Upper Room, praying together for the Holy Spirit that Christ had promised them as a gift. We hear as much or more about Mary in the weeks between Passover and Pentecost than we did in the entire previous three years. When Mary appears, it’s usually in connection with a greater truth, rather than just talking about her to say, “Hey, she’s important, let’s see what this character is doing today…”

Isn’t it unhealthy for all these people to be drinking from the same cup; why do we continue to receive the Body AND Blood of Jesus. Isn’t the reception of the Blood a redundency if you have just received the Body AND Blood of Jesus in the Host?

We do it because that was the way it was transmitted to us at the Last Supper. The early Christian community partook that way:

23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.

Traditions regarding communicating vary with time and geography. Christ is infinitely present in both forms. But there’s nothing that mandates that you have to receive under both species. So if you feel squicked, no one forces you to partake in that way, but if you desire to receive under both species, it’s commonly available.

 

[TimothyH]

I’m tired of being bushwhacked by non believers so I guess I’d better ask…

Regarding the Annunciation: Was Mary chosen or did she choose? How could a child make a decision of this magnatude?

Mary trusted God. That’s what faith is - trust in God.

God had made a promise to Abraham back in Genesis 22, saying,

…in your descendants all the nations of the earth will find blessing. (Genesis 22:18)

God had promised worldwide blessing through Abraham’s descendants. Mary trusted in God’s “promise to our fathers, to Abraham and to his descendants forever.” (Luke 1:55), and Mary understood that this promise was being fulfilled in her when the angel said to her…

Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end. (Luke 1:31-33)

Filial trust. Faith. Trust in God as a loving Father who keeps his promises is what Mary had. Without trust, Mary would never have chosen to say, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” (Luke 1:38)

-Tim-

 

[pjtinner]

Oh well.

 

[DJK100]

Oh well.

What is “Oh well?”

 

[TimothyH]

Oh well.

Are you dissatisfied with the answers you have been given?

Regarding the cup, we recieve Jesus’s body, blood, soul and divinity when we recieve under the species of bread. There is then no need to recieve Jesus under the species of wine. The priest must recieve both but it is optional for the laity. If you feel it to be unhealthy then you may choose not to recieve the cup and there is no need to worry about it in any way.

Regarding choice, Mary was created by God to be the Mother of God and she chose to do so when the time came. The answer is that she was both chosen and she chose, and she chose because she trusted God completely.

Regarding hearing about Mary in the Bible, we have to understand the way the writers wrote. In St. John’s gospel, Mary is at the wedding at Cana - the beginning of Jesus’ ministry and she is there again at the end of Jesus ministry - at the foot of the cross. This is called “Bookending”. What John is doing in his Gospel is placing markers in the text to tell us something. John “Bookends” Jesus’ ministry with Mary, placing her at the beginning and at the end. It’s his way of telling us that Mary was there from the beginning to the end.

We hear about Mary after Pentacost in Revelation 12. There Mary is a queen who wears a crown. All the kings of the Old Testament appointed their mothers as queen, and Jesus Christ our King is no different.

***A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown *of twelve stars. She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. … She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne. (Revelation 12:1-2,5)

Here scripture speaks clearly about Mary and her role in God’s kingdom for all eternity. Only kings and queens wear crowns, and so the woman who wears a crown is clearly a queen. A son who rules nations and a mother who wears a crown as pictured in Revelation 12 is exactly consistent with all the ruler-kings in the Old Testament and their mother’s who wore a crown and served as queen. Scripture clearly tells us that Mary is Queen of Heaven and earth. Revelation 12 also tells us that Mary is our Mother.

Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus. (Revelation 12:17)

If we bear witness to Jesus Christ and keep God’s commandments then we are Mary’s “offspring.” We are Mary’s children, and she is out Mother. We may not hear the word’s she spoke, but scripture is explicit about Mary and her role after Pentacost, for all eternity.

-Tim-

 

[pjtinner]

I guess I’m not supposed try to address more than one subject at a time. OK.

Regarding several strangers drinking from one cup:
–It’s recklessly unhealthy to mix bodily fluids this way.
–It’s not good parenting to have our children developing a “taste” for wine.
–This fad is expensive in two ways; sickness costs money and so does wine.
–The Church is recklessly presenting children and adults with a decision that should not be offered in the 1st place.

Please don’t tell me it’s the Blood of Jesus Christ so don’t worry about it.

 

[JonNC]

I understand your concern, however;

=pjtinner;9155182]I guess I’m not supposed try to address more than one subject at a time. OK.

Regarding several strangers drinking from one cup:
–It’s recklessly unhealthy to mix bodily fluids this way.

From what I have read,there has never been an event of the spread of disease as a result of participating in the chalice. Below I have listed two links - one Orthodox, and one Catholic (that sites both a Lutheran and an Anglican link).

orthocuban.com/2009/10/on-the-transmission-of-disease-through-a-common-communion-cup/

No episode of disease attributable to the shared communion cup has ever been reported. Currently available data do not provide any support for suggesting that the practice of sharing a common communion cup should be abandoned because it might spread infection.”

stpetesrock.blogspot.com/2008/08/common-cup-infection.html

“No episode of disease attributable to the common cup has ever been reported. Thus for the average communicant it would seem that the risk of drinking from the common cup is probably less than the risk of air-borne infection in using a common building.”

“A microbiologist shows, through scientific studies, that receiving Holy Communion does not increase one’s illness rate when compared to the general population which does not take communion.”

–It’s not good parenting to have our children developing a “taste” for wine.

do you have a study that links receiving communion by children leads to alcohol problems for them?

–This fad is expensive in two ways; sickness costs money and so does wine.

I’m not sure that a practice that has existed for 2000 years is a fad. The above links show that sickness is not an issue, and bread cost money, too. So do candles, incense, seminaries, etc.

–The Church is recklessly presenting children and adults with a decision that should not be offered in the 1st place.

I just don’t see it as reckless in any way.

Please don’t tell me it’s the Blood of Jesus Christ so don’t worry about it

I would say don’t worry about it because science and history say don’t worry about it. That said, does your parish permit intinction?

Jon

 

[pjtinner]

If intinction were well thought out and practiced methodically…I believe it could be an acceptable method of receiving communion. I have not seen or experienced intinction in a Catholic venue. It would likely be a decision of at least a bishop.

 

[EricFilmer]

Regarding several strangers drinking from one cup:
–It’s recklessly unhealthy to mix bodily fluids this way.

Although, objectively speaking, I can’t argue against the sanitation concern expressed here, I will, however, point out that priests and deacons purify the cups at the end of Mass. This means that, although they are the first to drink from the cups, they are also the very last, rinsing the cups with water after everyone has drunk from them, and then consuming the water. And yet priests and deacons do not seem to be noticeably sicker than everyone else. Moreover, I have never heard that illness among Mass attending Catholics is higher than that of the general population. Maybe the exact opposite is happening, and we are building up tougher immune systems due to such exposure. In light of all this, perhaps our society is just a little too germaphobic.

–It’s not good parenting to have our children developing a “taste” for wine.

But wine is a good thing, and even healthy if consumed responsibly. If someone is worried that this could be a prelude to alcoholism, I would simply point out that I have never heard that Catholics, Orthodox Christians and Anglicans (who all use wine for Communion) have a higher propensity for becoming alcoholics.

–This fad is expensive in two ways; sickness costs money…

Where is the data that shows a greater amount of sickness among Mass attending Catholics as compared to the general population?

…and so does wine.

And so do candles, and flowers, and air conditioning, and heating, and light bulbs, and hymnals, etc. We are supposed to spend money on things that are important. Furthermore, I assist in ordering things for my parish and can attest to the fact that wine is not very expensive. Some wine companies, such as Oneida, actually keep the cost of Communion wine down for the benefit of parishes (and instead make most of their profits from their table wines).

–The Church is recklessly presenting children and adults with a decision that should not be offered in the 1st place.

Seeing as Christ is the one who said that we are to eat his Body and drink his Blood (John 6), this statement needs to be reworded: “Jesus is recklessly presenting children and adults with a decision that should not be offered in the 1st place.” Now, how many people are going to agree with that statement?

 

[LilyM]

In regard the issue of children developing a taste for wine, I grew up in a family of Mediterranean (European) heritage. Our custom with children has been that, on very special occasions such as Christmas, Easter and birthdays, they might be permitted the tiniest sip of wine or champagne.

My personal observation is a notable lack of propensity for excessive alcohol consumption in later life among those with very controlled exposure to alcohol as children, compared with those totally denied during childhood and teenage and then suddenly let loose when legally of age.

I can only surmise that my and my acquaintances’ tastes of alcohol as a child made it both less mysterious and less alluring in that forbidden fruit kinda way. As a matter of fact, I now rarely partake even in communion wine at Mass let alone any other alcohol at any other time.

I don’t claim childhood exposure to alcohol as a guaranteed method of preventing alcohol problems in adulthood, but I venture to surmise that exposure to communion wine is much much less of a factor than, say, hanging around people who drink a lot socially. Such is likely to teach a child that alcohol equals fun, whereas the communion ritual is something solemn, rather than sociable.

 

[pjtinner]

In regard the issue of children developing a taste for wine, I grew up in a family of Mediterranean (European) heritage. Our custom with children has been that, on very special occasions such as Christmas, Easter and birthdays, they might be permitted the tiniest sip of wine or champagne.

My personal observation is a notable lack of propensity for excessive alcohol consumption in later life among those with very controlled exposure to alcohol as children, compared with those totally denied during childhood and teenage and then suddenly let loose when legally of age.

I can only surmise that my and my acquaintances’ tastes of alcohol as a child made it both less mysterious and less alluring in that forbidden fruit kinda way. As a matter of fact, I now rarely partake even in communion wine at Mass let alone any other alcohol at any other time.

I don’t claim childhood exposure to alcohol as a guaranteed method of preventing alcohol problems in adulthood, but I venture to surmise that exposure to communion wine is much much less of a factor than, say, hanging around people who drink a lot socially. Such is likely to teach a child that alcohol equals fun, whereas the communion ritual is something solemn, rather than sociable.

I like this one. You didn’t twist up anything I said. You gave what I said some real consideration. As a grandfather, I feel just a little more comfortable with this now.

On the subject of the Blessed Virgin Mary; I pray the rosary daily. It’s just that sometimes these things creep into my mind.

Thank you very much.

 

[TimothyH]

I guess I’m not supposed try to address more than one subject at a time. OK.

Regarding several strangers drinking from one cup:
–It’s recklessly unhealthy to mix bodily fluids this way.
–It’s not good parenting to have our children developing a “taste” for wine.
–This fad is expensive in two ways; sickness costs money and so does wine.
–The Church is recklessly presenting children and adults with a decision that should not be offered in the 1st place.

Please don’t tell me it’s the Blood of Jesus Christ so don’t worry about it.

A two thousand year practice is not a fad. Pet rocks and velcro wallets were fads. A two thousand year old religious practice with roots two thousand years prior to that is not a fad.

All the expensive wine used at the Church is purchased with money which is donated. If we want to donate our money to buy Christmas decorations or new computers, that’s really not anyone’s elses business.

The decision to take the cup or not is just that, a decision. It is no more reckless than the beer in the cooler at the convenience store or the wine your colleages drink at a business meeting. If you don’t want it then don’t take it. In general, Children under eight yers of age are prohibited from recieving the cup anyway.

-Tim-

 

[pjtinner]

A two thousand year practice is not a fad. Pet rocks and velcro wallets were fads. A two thousand year old religious practice with roots two thousand years prior to that is not a fad.

All the expensive wine used at the Church is purchased with money which is donated. If we want to donate our money to buy Christmas decorations or new computers, that’s really not anyone’s elses business.

The decision to take the cup or not is just that, a decision. It is no more reckless than the beer in the cooler at the convenience store or the wine your colleages drink at a business meeting. If you don’t want it then don’t take it. In general, Children under eight yers of age are prohibited from recieving the cup anyway.

-Tim-

I don’t believe Christ told the apostles to feed the multitudes from the same cup.

At the tender age of 66 I can’t recall anyone but the priest drinking from the cup until about 30 or so years ago. Then it was practiced only on special occasions like weddings. Then (I could be mistaking here.) I seem to recall it being approved to the multitudes but that approval came by accident.

I don’t recall mentioning the expense of anything but the wine. Would you like to discuss taxes too?

How anyone could conclude that I believe Christ acted recklessly is beyond my wildest guess.

I’ll give you a break…I done with this website.

Thanks for nothing.

 

[TimothyH]

I’m truly sorry that my post has driven PJ away. It was not my intent. I’m sorry if my post sounded accusitory and that I didn’t word it in a nicer, less argumentitive way.

I’m really sorry that he has left. I do think that he overreacted a bit, but I’m sorry I didn’t say things in a nicer way.

-Tim-

 

[EricFilmer]

I’m truly sorry that my post has driven PJ away. It was not my intent. I’m sorry if my post sounded accusitory and that I didn’t word it in a nicer, less argumentitive way.

I’m really sorry that he has left. I do think that he overreacted a bit, but I’m sorry I didn’t say things in a nicer way.

-Tim-

In my opinion, nothing you said sounded argumentative or objectionable (and neither did anyone else’ posts). We hold beliefs concerning Communion which are contrary to the OP’s and we debated this topic in a reasonable, respectful way, so I share your opinion that he overreacted. Quite frankly, I don’t know how he could have expected anything else to happen in a debate forum such as this.

As an interesting side note, when I gave my own responses to the issues pjtinner raised concerning use of wine for Communion, I didn’t even think I was addressing his own opinion. The way he worded things in Post #1 sounded like he was simply passing on what “non-believers” have said to him in criticism of the Catholic Faith, and so he was posting them on the CAF in order to receive good Catholic responses to such criticisms. But even still, I don’t think anything I said, or what anybody else said, was out of line.