The Blessed Virgin Mother Mary's Dark Night

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It never occurred to me before tonight. I was praying the Holy Rosary and on the Mystery of the Losing of the Child Jesus in the Temple it crossed my mind that this was a dark night of three days for Mary, she searched and she could not find Him, her distress must have been severe, but she also must have trusted in God that she would find Jesus or He would find her. Again, it prepared her for the three nights Jesus would be in the tomb. It was also St Joseph’s Dark Night.

Our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary did not need the Dark Night to perfect her because she is without sin, yet did she pass through this dark night to show us the way, to seek Jesus as she did. Did she suffer the first dark night to symbolise the dark night of the senses and the second dark night to symbolise the dark night of the spirit.

Just as Jesus did not need Baptism, still He did it to sanctify the waters and show us the Way our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary did not need the Dark Night but she entered into this darkness to guide us ever closer to Jesus in His Ways.

Jesus did not need to enter into the Dark Night as He is God but upon the Cross He endured both dark nights simultaneously ‘My God, My God why hast Thou forsaken Me’

In the Living Prayer of my life
 
I have thought about this as well. When Mary and Joseph lost Jesus, she was showing us that there will be times in our lives that are very dark nights, seemingly (to us) without Jesus with us. We can’t feel Him, can’t find Him, but to TRUST that we will be able to find Him again. He is there whether or not we are aware of Him, always has been, always will be, and we indeed will find Him again. And in the midst of those dark nights, we are, I believe, encouraged to “keep looking, keep searching, keep praying, keep the faith.”
 
blessedstar said:
It never occurred to me before tonight. I was praying the Holy Rosary and on the Mystery of the Losing of the Child Jesus in the Temple it crossed my mind that this was a dark night of three days for Mary, she searched and she could not find Him, her distress must have been severe, but she also must have trusted in God that she would find Jesus or He would find her. Again, it prepared her for the three nights Jesus would be in the tomb. It was also St Joseph’s Dark Night.

Our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary did not need the Dark Night to perfect her because she is without sin, yet did she pass through this dark night to show us the way, to seek Jesus as she did. Did she suffer the first dark night to symbolise the dark night of the senses and the second dark night to symbolise the dark night of the spirit.

Just as Jesus did not need Baptism, still He did it to sanctify the waters and show us the Way our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary did not need the Dark Night but she entered into this darkness to guide us ever closer to Jesus in His Ways.

Jesus did not need to enter into the Dark Night as He is God but upon the Cross He endured both dark nights simultaneously ‘My God, My God why hast Thou forsaken Me’

In the Living Prayer of my life
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Excellent reflection! Excellent!! 👍
 
blessedstar said:
It never occurred to me before tonight. I was praying the Holy Rosary and on the Mystery of the Losing of the Child Jesus in the Temple it crossed my mind that this was a dark night of three days for Mary, she searched and she could not find Him, her distress must have been severe, but she also must have trusted in God that she would find Jesus or He would find her. Again, it prepared her for the three nights Jesus would be in the tomb. It was also St Joseph’s Dark Night.

Our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary did not need the Dark Night to perfect her because she is without sin, yet did she pass through this dark night to show us the way, to seek Jesus as she did. Did she suffer the first dark night to symbolise the dark night of the senses and the second dark night to symbolise the dark night of the spirit.

Just as Jesus did not need Baptism, still He did it to sanctify the waters and show us the Way our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary did not need the Dark Night but she entered into this darkness to guide us ever closer to Jesus in His Ways.

Jesus did not need to enter into the Dark Night as He is God but upon the Cross He endured both dark nights simultaneously ‘My God, My God why hast Thou forsaken Me’

In the Living Prayer of my life
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I never thought of it, but maybe because I can be a bit of a puddle and not an ocean—lol. I wish I could delve so beautifully into the mysteries as you.🙂

BTW, I have always wondered, I mean REALLY wondered: what IS a Dark Night? We all have problems, woes and concerns—but what is a “dark night” ?? I don’t know if it is the plain trials of life, and if it is (the plain trials of life) , I don’t suffer “well enough” (like without worry and complaint and sin) for it be justified a dark night. I fritter it away being me, I guess.
 
LISA_Annette said:
I never thought of it, but maybe because I can be a bit of a puddle and not an ocean—lol. I wish I could delve so beautifully into the mysteries as you.🙂

BTW, I have always wondered, I mean REALLY wondered: what IS a Dark Night? We all have problems, woes and concerns—but what is a “dark night” ?? I don’t know if it is the plain trials of life, and if it is (the plain trials of life) , I don’t suffer “well enough” (like without worry and complaint and sin) for it be justified a dark night. I fritter it away being me, I guess.
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Hi Lisa Annette. Whole books have been written about The Dark Night. The important thing as we journey through life is The Mass and Sacramental Life of The Church as well as her teachings… to do the best we can and avoid sin, keep Faith and trust in God no matter the obstacles and to never abandon prayer. Of course into that terribly short summary comes many matters indeed, indeed!..in fact whole books and a library of books as we all know. To have a spirtual director is pure gold.

It is not at all necessary to know one is actually in The Dark Night to endure it. It could be helpful even a consolation to know, but then on the other hand it could be problematic. I dont think it can be totally"tackled" in a post or even a couple of posts…except for the more skilled than I.

Here are links to a couple of relatively simple summaries of what it is all about. But, as I said, it is a subject that has massive literature on the subject and by spiritual authors as well as some of our saints:
[
http://www.pcentral-online.net/catholic/prayers/the-dark-night.html
The above link is actually a summary of a book I think. As a very brief summary of TDN it is to the point, simple and consice as well as giving in simple langauge the classic signs of TDN
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http://www.pcentral-online.net/catholic/prayers/the-dark-night.html
](http://www.pcentral-online.net/catholic/prayers/the-dark-night.html)

http://ncregister.com/site/article/3762
The above link is a commentary on Mother Teresa of Calcutta and sections of her writings. One great contribution I think possibly Mother
Teresa will make is that she wrote as she was actually undergoing The Dark Night. She was not writing a theological/spiritual concept of The Dark Night objectively, nor reflecting back on what her experience had been of The Dark Night. Her writings are very personal and totally subjective as she was undergoing TDN and she left instructions her writings were to be destroyed on her death. In some cases I think this was done, but in others not. Hence we still have some of her writings.
We can see from what she has written that The Dark Night of the soul is truly overwhelming suffering and sense of confusing loss and temptation. Considering this with what we know about Mother Teresa, so often in the media…who would have thought the agony and temptations she was undergoing.
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One final brief comment. I have lost my edit facility - time allowed has expired. While the actual signs of TDN are almost universally agreed upon by spiritual writers etc., it probably would take a spiritual director to be able to clearly state “This is The Dark Night” and whether he/she shares that knowledge with the one being directed, would be his/her decision in wisdom and understanding as well as insight into the one being directed.
The other point is that while the underlying signs are all the same from a Catholic viewpoint of mystical theology and are drawn from St. John of The Cross…how these signs actually manifest themselves in an individual may vary; hence again it is always best, I think anyway, to leave it all up to the director…and not at all necessary to know the correct name in theology to undergo the experience as in my previous post.

Pheww…regards - Barb:)
 
BarbaraTherese said:
One final brief comment. I have lost my edit facility - time allowed has expired. While the actual signs of TDN are almost universally agreed upon by spiritual writers etc., it probably would take a spiritual director to be able to clearly state “This is The Dark Night” and whether he/she shares that knowledge with the one being directed, would be his/her decision in wisdom and understanding as well as insight into the one being directed.
The other point is that while the underlying signs are all the same from a Catholic viewpoint of mystical theology and are drawn from St. John of The Cross…how these signs actually manifest themselves in an individual may vary; hence again it is always best, I think anyway, to leave it all up to the director…and not at all necessary to know the correct name in theology to undergo the experience as in my previous post.

Pheww…regards - Barb:)
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Yes, Barb, it was a tackle in a few posts—sorry, but thanks. That was an W-I-D-E question the way I stated it:o —what I was thinking I guess, was how would a person know they had this dark night. Spiritual directors who understand this are very hard to come by, and I have done without one, and just lived how I do.

I have read literature on it, but had decided (somewhat half-heartedly, I am afraid) after 15 years to leave it up to God—and that whatever was happening to me interiorly (if anything) would have to I guess remain a mystery—like just let it go, and just pray as I ought, and do what I have to do daily for God. I figured it hasn’t been my time, or maybe God doesn’t want for me to be so self-absorbed. As you stated, and I see now clearly after you have written, it really isn’t* important *to know definitively if I go through it—life is living, and just doing what we ought. If it happens, I may never know, but God’s work will still be the same anyway. My business is to take care of stuff in my life.

If I ever do get direction, it may be much later. I hope in God’s Will to join a community of Lay Carmelites. But I have a feeling, that by then, I won’t be questioning so much—I will be so happy just to be there. God will work in my life despite my knowing it:) 🙂 🙂 That is the attitude I am shooting for—just let go and let God.

Thank you, Thank you, Barb, for your patience in writing this post for my benefit!🙂 And thank you Blessed Star for being patient with my post too!🙂
 
LISA_Annette said:
Yes, Barb, it was a tackle in a few posts—sorry, but thanks. That was an W-I-D-E question the way I stated it:o —what I was thinking I guess, was how would a person know they had this dark night. Spiritual directors who understand this are very hard to come by, and I have done without one, and just lived how I do.

I have read literature on it, but had decided (somewhat half-heartedly, I am afraid) after 15 years to leave it up to God—and that whatever was happening to me interiorly (if anything) would have to I guess remain a mystery—like just let it go, and just pray as I ought, and do what I have to do daily for God. I figured it hasn’t been my time, or maybe God doesn’t want for me to be so self-absorbed. As you stated, and I see now clearly after you have written, it really isn’t* important *to know definitively if I go through it—life is living, and just doing what we ought. If it happens, I may never know, but God’s work will still be the same anyway. My business is to take care of stuff in my life.

If I ever do get direction, it may be much later. I hope in God’s Will to join a community of Lay Carmelites. But I have a feeling, that by then, I won’t be questioning so much—I will be so happy just to be there. God will work in my life despite my knowing it:) 🙂 🙂 That is the attitude I am shooting for—just let go and let God.

Thank you, Thank you, Barb, for your patience in writing this post for my benefit!🙂 And thank you Blessed Star for being patient with my post too!🙂
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Oh dear…I replied to you Lisa and the Post just disappeared. In that case I say “not meant to be”. But at some later point I will reply if others have not come in and reassured you you are on a safe and good path. St. Teresa wrote that the surest and safest way to Union with God is through love of neighbour and she states that the mystical states and experiences can be fraught with danger - liable to deception either by self and the imagination or by Satan. The Dark Night is a scarey matter if you read the mystics and I think it is in the Interior Castle that St. Teresa wrote that if the soul knew what lay ahead she thinks courage to persevere could perhaps fail…she meant The Dark Night.
Self absorption can have many faces I think. How can I know if I am self absorbed…I can depend on God to let me know if it is necessary. That’s pretty much how I travel in and through life. I may read a book, see something on TV, read a post or someone say something, something will happen and I will start to think “Am I engrossed in myself”…and then I would put it to my spiritual director. And if I did not have one I would totally trust God to give me an answer somehow if I really need to know. I know really no other way to travel. Faith and absolute trust with Peace is a great criteria of the spiritual life and good reason to be so since Jesus said “My Peace I give to you” Satan has great problems with a soul in peace and joyfully …when one is troubled, anxious etc. etc. the jolly thing can work all sorts of mischief.
Drats! that my post replying to each of your points disappeared:( Willl come back at some later point if others have not given you assurance and respond to you. It struck me reading your Post above that you have sound common sense, Faith and trust and are prayerful…seeking God. I will keep you (name removed by moderator)rayer re Lay Carmel and reasurrance for you. I cant spell reassurance! And I really have to go for a while.

Blessings with muchPeace and great Joy…Barb:)
 
Hi again Lisa………….this time I have used my head and am answering through Word and then can just copy and transfer to this thread and that way if I loose my post somehow my response is still in Word. This way too I can work on my reply as time presents. I am going to try and develop this habit. Because I touch type and quite fallibly, at times I hit the wrong key and things disappear or some window pops up seeming out of nowhere. Nothing mysterious in it at all…….I simply inadvertently hit the wrong key I think. Incidentally, my thinking is also very fallible!!!
I am happy that I have not, to date anyway, confused you. I hope I will not.
*I am going to have to break my reply into Part ONe and Part Two…too many words again. My apologies!!!:o *
I have read literature on it, but had decided (somewhat half-heartedly, I am afraid) after 15 years to leave it up to God—and that whatever was happening to me interiorly (if anything) would have to I guess remain a mystery—like just let it go, and just pray as I ought, and do what I have to do daily for God. I figured it hasn’t been my time, or maybe God doesn’t want for me to be so self-absorbed.
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When I first read St. John and St. Teresa - well tried to…I thought to myself “What on earth are they on about”

The above quote, Lisa, displays sound common sense along with firm Faith trustfully……….qualities I know St. Teresa would love. They also display something of St. Therese of Lisieux. …………Are you able to think of it this way. If I have a headache but I have never heard of the word “headache” or if I have heard of it, but I cannot understand what it means…………I still do really have an actual headache. I hope that makes sense tied in with The Dark Night. And this is very much what you are doing………what is happening exactly as to correct terminology in your spiritual life is “dark” meaning you cannot understand what it may be in the terminology of spirituality……….and can leave that alone peacefully and go on in trustful confidence in God and what else, in a way, is there? without of course lapsing into the ridiculous. But I think you display too much common sense for that.
As for the self absorption. Can you think of it this way. If I am self absorbed and focused on myself totally, what good would it do to worry about it. As I personally would then progress is tell God my sorrow if I am indeed self absorbed to please help me with His Grace. Then I would confess it and having done so. rest in Peace with anything Father may say. Since I have a director/confessor, he would then advise me. I may well be self absorbed or he may point out some other matter in connection in some way. If I did not have a director I would still go on in trust. If God wants me to know that I am indeed self absorbed, He will let me know. That would be my trust in Faith. God is far more desirous of my doing His Will than I could ever even hope to be. Self absorption or focusing on self to the exclusion of almost all else is a big question again I think and it has many faces. Also the underlying cause may vary. Self absorption is really a symptom and not a disease as it were. In other words it is the underlying cause needing treatment – treat that and the symptom “self absorption” will disappear.

Part Two next Post:o …

**
 
Part Two:o
As you stated, and I see now clearly after you have written, it really isn’t important to know definitively if I go through it—life is living, and just doing what we ought. If it happens, I may never know, but God’s work will still be the same anyway. My business is to take care of stuff in my life.
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*Spot on and again you display sound common sense, down to earthedness and great Faith and trust. I know a couple of Carmelite nuns very well over a span of 20 years or more…………they have all these qualities along with great senses of humour. I was talking to one of them one day about Jesus cursing the fig tree.Sister said to me “You know what I reckon? ……….Jesus was*just having a really lousy day. I mean what did the poor fig tree do to deserve being cursed?”
*Such down to earthedness, such sense of the funny. Such easy joyful familiarity with Jesus. Another time I was talking with Sister on the phone and commented that I had never felt so depressed in my whole life. I was really having a lousy day. Well she replied: “Boo Hoo! Oh boo hoo!” I burst out laughing and kept laughing for a few days more since she recognized and told me in a very funny way (in Carmlite “shorthand”), that I was indeed over focused on me and my poor ‘problems’. After a few days laughing at myself, self pity vanished as I started to feel ashamed when I pondered the great sufferings, problems and worries people really do have in our world. Crushing, overwhelming problems. Spirituality and the spiritual life is a journey and one of ups and downs, ebbs and flows, mistakes and corrections and the journey is over a lifetime………it is a journey with Lord who is closer to us than we are to ourselves. He knows us better than we know ourselves. His Grace and all that it implies is never lacking. He is the Constantly Faithful One. St. Francis of Assisi said that pride dies 10 minutes after we do…………which was a very skilled and simple way of saying a few things including that the struggle somewhere or other on some level or other goes on for life. One of the CAF members has a very funny but great signature that runs in this sense “I promised you it would be worth it, not that it would be easy”. Every time I see it I wished I had copied it as I have quoted it before. I’ll try to remember next time so I get the precise wording. *
We may have times of great Peace and Joy, we may have times of great suffering of some kind. We may have times of wonderful matters. Times we regret …etc etc etc. Life is a great adventure and the spiritual life the greatest adventure life can present. I recall as College student, Sister saying to us “Pray daily and always that God will confirm you in Faith”. At the time, I thought “what a silly thing to say, you either have Faith or you don’t”…………years later I recognized her wisdom and always ask God to confirm me in Faith.
If I ever do get direction, it may be much later. I hope in God’s Will to join a community of Lay Carmelites. But I have a feeling, that by then, I won’t be questioning so much—I will be so happy just to be there. God will work in my life despite my knowing it That is the attitude I am shooting for—just let go and let God.
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*Again, you display sound common sense (St. Albert – Ancient Rule of Carmel: “common sense is the ground of all the virtues”)………you also display again actually more trust in God than in yourself and great Faith in Him………St. Teresa of Avila would love you in these qualities. I hope that The Lord will fulfill all your hopes and indeed draw you into Carmel (Lay Branch) – what a wonderful matter indeed. Just let go and let God is a great, sure and safe way to travel. *
Thank you, Thank you, Barb, for your patience in writing this post for my benefit! And thank you Blessed Star for being patient with my post too!
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Happy you have been helped in some way……if at too much length:o ……Regards and with God’s Blessings and Peace and Joy……….Barb
 
I have recently considered the 3 days of Mary and Joseph missing Jesus with the story of Job. In both cases, the characters endured much despair. And in both cases, rejoicing came, still in this life after enduring the pain. In both cases, there is a lesson that we should trust God when in darkness.
 
MarcoPolo said:
I have recently considered the 3 days of Mary and Joseph missing Jesus with the story of Job. In both cases, the characters endured much despair. And in both cases, rejoicing came, still in this life after enduring the pain. In both cases, there is a lesson that we should trust God when in darkness.
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Amen! Well said and the heart of all things…The Lord is the Constantly Faithful One and can be trusted in all things regardless and will not confound…
Pondering the life of Mary and Joseph reveals just how much suffering they surely must have endured. The story of Job is very moving and the lessons built into it are a support and encouragement to all who are suffering and/or perhaps tempted to despair…

Blessings Peace and Joy…Barb
 
BarbaraTherese said:
Amen! Well said and the heart of all things…The Lord is the Constantly Faithful One and can be trusted in all things regardless and will not confound…
Pondering the life of Mary and Joseph reveals just how much suffering they surely must have endured. The story of Job is very moving and the lessons built into it are a support and encouragement to all who are suffering and/or perhaps tempted to despair…

Blessings Peace and Joy…Barb
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Thanks Barbara. And likewise to you. 🙂
Job is indeed that kind of story. I was told to read that myself recently while bearing several crosses. I still bear most of them…but the Job story helped. Although I struggle very much with trust, I couldn’t entirely come up with a good reason why I should expect to be treated differently than Job!
 
btw, one of the promises of the devotion to 7 sorrows of Blessed Virgin Mary is to know the mystery of her sorrow.
 
MarcoPolo said:
Thanks Barbara. And likewise to you. 🙂
Job is indeed that kind of story. I was told to read that myself recently while bearing several crosses. I still bear most of them…but the Job story helped. Although I struggle very much with trust, I couldn’t entirely come up with a good reason why I should expect to be treated differently than Job!
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Hi there MarcoPolo:) …I came to the same conclusion after reading Job “What on earth am I upset about!”. Not only that but the reasoning as why one should not be upset, nor concerned really, is all clearly laid out and sure makes a lot of sense. If we take joy and happiness from the hands of The Lord, should we then not also take sorrow. Mary and Joseph did and so did Jesus and outstandingly, to commence a long long list of stories and journeys who followed in our saints and all we know about them - and then those we know whose sufferings will never be fully know - “known only to God” as it says in The Mass. What about too what some of our martyrs endured!!! Things did not get slowly better for poor Job but consecutively far worse. We have a CAF member and poster who has a signature something like this: “I promised it would be worth it, not that it would be easy”…I must copy the signature verbatum and whose signature it is. It’s a beauty!!!👍

Thank you for the excellent (name removed by moderator)ut…Blessings, Peace and Joy - Barb:)
 
water said:
btw, one of the promises of the devotion to 7 sorrows of Blessed Virgin Mary is to know the mystery of her sorrow.
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Thanks for that insight and reminder, Water. As the mother of an only son, I have no idea whatsoever how Mary stood at the foot of that cross with her Son all the way to the end…I could not have endured it in all honesty and if I had tried I would have passed out. I have an authoritative account here (in print form only)of actual Roman crucifixion and just what a person suffered, it is absolutely horrific. We have in The Church what is known as “spiritual martyrdom” and that, for Our Lady, was a true spiritual martyrdom.
Not only that but when Jesus took to His public life, both he and His mother would have realized what had happened to the cousin of Jesus, John, for speaking out against authority…he was beheaded - executed. My own musings are that Jesus and His mother, as Jesus took the same road of standing against the authority of the day, would have realized the chances were very high that Jesus too would pay with His life. And execution in those days was a terrrible terrible suffering to put it mildly - nothing even approximating anything humane in fact to the opposite. Hence I think for both Jesus and His mother, it would have been a slow martyrdom to Calvary and the terrible climax. What must have been in their eyes as their eyes met over those three years…great love and concern. It took a lot of courage to be at to the foot of the cross and Jesus would have known it too, since the Romans sometimes would round up family and friends and crucify them too, which is why the apostles ran. Why Peter did not want to be identified as a friend of Jesus when Peter denied him. All just my musings of course.

Thank you too for the (name removed by moderator)ut…can you give a link to the Seven Sorrows of Mary - it is years since I have read them, and remiss of me. Blessings with Peace and Joy…Barb:)
 
blessedstar said:
It never occurred to me before tonight. I was praying the Holy Rosary and on the Mystery of the Losing of the Child Jesus in the Temple it crossed my mind that this was a dark night of three days for Mary, she searched and she could not find Him, her distress must have been severe, but she also must have trusted in God that she would find Jesus or He would find her. Again, it prepared her for the three nights Jesus would be in the tomb. It was also St Joseph’s Dark Night.

Our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary did not need the Dark Night to perfect her because she is without sin, yet did she pass through this dark night to show us the way, to seek Jesus as she did. Did she suffer the first dark night to symbolise the dark night of the senses and the second dark night to symbolise the dark night of the spirit.

Just as Jesus did not need Baptism, still He did it to sanctify the waters and show us the Way our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary did not need the Dark Night but she entered into this darkness to guide us ever closer to Jesus in His Ways.
Jesus did not need to enter into the Dark Night as He is God but upon the Cross He endured both dark nights simultaneously ‘My God, My God why hast Thou forsaken Me’

In the Living Prayer of my life
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You know BlSt, I never looked at the photoe of St Therese and saw what I did tonight.
The look in her eyes seem to me to be allowing us to see her as an everyday person with no special gifts and or illnesses, while she hides the truth of her simple life covered until her new life in Heaven. I guess it was the same as Mary, Joseph and Jesus
Godbless
Godlovestrength
 
Godlovestrength said:
You know BlSt, I never looked at the photoe of St Therese and saw what I did tonight.
The look in her eyes seem to me to be allowing us to see her as an everyday person with no special gifts and or illnesses, while she hides the truth of her simple life covered until her new life in Heaven. I guess it was the same as Mary, Joseph and Jesus
Godbless
Godlovestrength
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A beautiful reflection. Thank you!👍
 
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