The blessed Virgin's intercession "vs." Christ's intercession

[GloriousOrder]

Friends ,

I often hear Catholics (“our life, our sweetness, and our hope”) and Orthodox (“most holy Theotokos, save us”) speak of the blessed Virgin in an intercessory manner. In addition to referring to her as Mediatrix, Vatican I is quite strong about her mediation. This is one thing that I was never fully convinced about since converting, and no one seemed eager to explain the situation to me. I became a Catholic without knowing all about the holy Mother of God.

My question is: why is Mary super-added as an intercessor to Christ, when Christ alone is said to be interceding for us to the Father? This has been answered a million times, I know, but my specific context is the relation between Mary/Christ and Christ/the Father. If we already have Christ our Lord interceding for us to the Father, the Ancient of Days, why would we need our Lady to intercede to Christ, who then intercedes to the Father? There is a step here that’s added on to what is given in the holy Scriptures.

Christ is infinite God. The blessed Virgin is finite human. Why should we have to go through Mary to get to Christ, who then gets us to the Father? This unbalances everything. I don’t understand the point.

 

[catharina]

Friends ,

I often hear Catholics (“our life, our sweetness, and our hope”) and Orthodox (“most holy Theotokos, save us”) speak of the blessed Virgin in an intercessory manner. In addition to referring to her as Mediatrix, Vatican I is quite strong about her mediation. This is one thing that I was never fully convinced about since converting, and no one seemed eager to explain the situation to me. I became a Catholic without knowing all about the holy Mother of God.

My question is: why is Mary super-added as an intercessor to Christ, when Christ alone is said to be interceding for us to the Father? This has been answered a million times, I know, but my specific context is the relation between Mary/Christ and Christ/the Father. If we already have Christ our Lord interceding for us to the Father, the Ancient of Days, why would we need our Lady to intercede to Christ, who then intercedes to the Father? There is a step here that’s added on to what is given in the holy Scriptures.

Christ is infinite God. The blessed Virgin is finite human. Why should we have to go through Mary to get to Christ, who then gets us to the Father? This unbalances everything. I don’t understand the point.

If your parents were believers, you’d ask them to pray for you.
Even now, you surely ask St. Dominic and his Dominican saints to pray for you.

Who can hold more “power” with God?
Surely the answer is the mother of God, the mother of Our Lord.
So we do ask her to pray for us. Yes, it’s that simple.

 

[GloriousOrder]

If your parents were believers, you’d ask them to pray for you.
Even now, you surely ask St. Dominic and his Dominican saints to pray for you.

Who can hold more “power” with God?
Surely the answer is the mother of God, the mother of Our Lord.
So we do ask her to pray for us. Yes, it’s that simple.

To be honest, I never ask the saints to pray for me. I hope they do, but I feel very awkward diverting my attention from the Persons of the Trinity in prayer. We are One Body, yes, but that doesn’t stop me from looking at the Head. My Dominican obsession is more about their history, ideal, charism, and habit than anything else.

 

[Koontzy]

thats one thing I have yet to understand… Why go to a saint or mary, when you can just go straight to Christ???

I think thats one of the main reasons I am still seeking and trying to learn…

 

[catharina]

To be honest, I never ask the saints to pray for me. I hope they do, but I feel very awkward diverting my attention from the Persons of the Trinity in prayer. We are One Body, yes, but that doesn’t stop me from looking at the Head. My Dominican obsession is more about their history, ideal, charism, and habit than anything else.

Saints exist as holy servants/children of God
and for our example as models of holiness. So I
can’t imagine not praying to the Saints. You might want
to learn the Litany of the Saints. God in His Church, in His
goodness, love and mercy has gifted us with this special litany.

Here is a link to that litany:

ewtn.com/devotionals/Litanies/saints.htm

 

[catharina]

thats one thing I have yet to understand… Why go to a saint or mary, when you can just go straight to Christ???

I think thats one of the main reasons I am still seeking and trying to learn…

Again:

Who can hold more “power” with God?
Surely the answer is the mother of God, the mother of Our Lord.
So we do ask her to pray for us. Yes, it’s that simple.

No one in the Church will ever tell you that you should not pray to God.
Our Lord Himself told us to pray in this way:  "Our Father who art in heaven ... ."

Yet Saints can and will be our companions on the road.
They have achieved heaven and are in a position to pray for us too!

 

[JM3]

My question is: why is Mary super-added as an intercessor to Christ, when Christ alone is said to be interceding for us to the Father?

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2C.HTM

967 By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus)508 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."509

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation … Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."510

970 "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."511 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."512

 

[Anthony_V]

The saints, nor Mary, replace Jesus. They intend on bringing us to Jesus where we falter on going to Jesus.
The saints, nor Mary, want worship. Why would they want it? They would deny it, being fully attached to God as they are.

 

[catharina]

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2C.HTM

Thank you.

 

[catharina]

The saints, nor Mary, replace Jesus. They intend on bringing us to Jesus where we falter on going to Jesus.
The saints, nor Mary, want worship. Why would they want it? They would deny it, being fully attached to God as they are.

Simply beautiful.
Thank you.

 

[TrueLight]

Friends ,

I often hear Catholics (“our life, our sweetness, and our hope”) and Orthodox (“most holy Theotokos, save us”) speak of the blessed Virgin in an intercessory manner. In addition to referring to her as Mediatrix, Vatican I is quite strong about her mediation. This is one thing that I was never fully convinced about since converting, and no one seemed eager to explain the situation to me. I became a Catholic without knowing all about the holy Mother of God.

My question is: why is Mary super-added as an intercessor to Christ, when Christ alone is said to be interceding for us to the Father? This has been answered a million times, I know, but my specific context is the relation between Mary/Christ and Christ/the Father. If we already have Christ our Lord interceding for us to the Father, the Ancient of Days, why would we need our Lady to intercede to Christ, who then intercedes to the Father? There is a step here that’s added on to what is given in the holy Scriptures.

Christ is infinite God. The blessed Virgin is finite human. Why should we have to go through Mary to get to Christ, who then gets us to the Father? This unbalances everything. I don’t understand the point.

At this point in my spiritual journey, I am much more comfortable praying directly to Christ.

That’s not to say I haven’t prayed to a Saint or the BVM, but when I have tried to do that, I feel I am trying to include them, if that makes sense.

It is still a lot easier for me to say, “Lord, cleanse my mind”, etc rather then looking up a Saint associated with purity.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Catholics pray to the saints – that is, we ask the saints to pray for us – because our ancestors in the Faith were taught to do so by the Apostles, and the tradition has been handed down to us through twenty-one centuries. We also do it because it works! Those saints get results!

We don’t pray to the saints only. We pray to Christ, and to the Father, and, we ask the saints to pray for us. The prayer of a righteous man (or woman) availeth much!

The tomb of the Valerii, in the necropolis beneath St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome, is near the tomb of St. Peter. On the Valerii tomb is carved this inscription:

Peter pray for the pious Christian men buried near your body.

Peter was crucified by order of Nero c. A. D. 64. He chose to be crucified upside down. This inscription is late first or early second century.

In the catacombs under the Church of St. Sebastian in Rome (second half of the third century) is carved Paul and Peter, pray for Victor.

All of the Roman catacombs are full of such inscriptions.

I pray to the saints. I went to court and changed my name to honor a special saint who helped me during my long journey into the Catholic Church. Any friend of God’s is a friend of mine.

Jim Dandy
St. Damien, pray for us!

 

[Eric_Prine]

I feel comfortable praying to saints and especially Mary, but I do feel uncomfortable about that one prayer to Mother Mary that says about her, “our life, our hope”. I was wondering if that line is something the Church has said anything authoritatively about and explained or if it is just a prayer that just so happens to be very popular but never officially approved by the Church? -I’m curious if anyone happens to know.

 

[catharina]

I feel comfortable praying to saints and especially Mary, but I do feel uncomfortable about that one prayer to Mother Mary that says about her, “our life, our hope”. I was wondering if that line is something the Church has said anything authoritatively about and explained or if it is just a prayer that just so happens to be very popular but never officially approved by the Church? -I’m curious if anyone happens to know.

St. Alphonsus Liguori explains this and more about this prayer, the “Salve Regina.”

See **Hail Holy Queen: An Explanation of the Salve Regina, Alphonsus De Liguori (Author) **

 

[LilyM]

Do any of y’all ask the people around you to pray for you? Family, friends, priests?

And do any of y’all pray for others when they need it?

If so, why? I mean if you’re already praying to Christ about your problems then what does it add to have Father John or neighbor Jane praying to Him for you as well?

And if Christ is already interceding with the Father about the poor kids killed in Norway or your great grammy’s diabetes or whatever, and rest assured He is, then what point you or anybody praying about these things as well?

Point is, we are shown time and time again that intercessory prayer, even from humble human beings let alone heavenly saints, is powerfully effective. We see Abraham’s intercession for the people of Sodom. Moses’ intercession for Israel after the golden calf episode. The disciples praying in the upper room before Pentecost. Paul’s constant requests for prayers and exhortations as well as his constant reassurances that he as well as the ‘cloud of witnesses’ is praying for others.

There are no end of examples of intercessory prayer. And co-operation by this means in the saving work of Christ. Paul goes so far as to call himself a ‘co-laborer’ with Divinity, and to say that he has become all things to all people "so that by all means I (Paul) might save some’, thus claiming a share in God’s work of salvation itself.

 

[catharina]

Do any of y’all ask the people around you to pray for you? Family, friends, priests?

And do any of y’all pray for others when they need it?

If so, why? I mean if you’re already praying to Christ about your problems then what does it add to have Father John or neighbor Jane praying to Him for you as well?

And if Christ is already interceding with the Father about the poor kids killed in Norway or your great grammy’s diabetes or whatever, and rest assured He is, then what point you or anybody praying about these things as well?

Yes, yes, yes. That was/is my point too!
Thank you so very much.

Point is, we are shown time and time again that intercessory prayer, even from humble human beings let alone heavenly saints, is powerfully effective. We see Abraham’s intercession for the people of Sodom. Moses’ intercession for Israel after the golden calf episode. The disciples praying in the upper room before Pentecost. Paul’s constant requests for prayers and exhortations as well as his constant reassurances that he as well as the ‘cloud of witnesses’ is praying for others.

There are no end of examples of intercessory prayer. And co-operation by this means in the saving work of Christ. Paul goes so far as to call himself a ‘co-laborer’ with Divinity, and to say that he has become all things to all people "so that by all means I (Paul) might save some’, thus claiming a share in God’s work of salvation itself.

 

[GloriousOrder]

Do any of y’all ask the people around you to pray for you? Family, friends, priests?

No, not really. I feel irresponsible pushing my duties on them.

And do any of y’all pray for others when they need it?

I do, but I don’t say “hey, I’m going to pray for you”. Besides, only I know that I am praying for X at any given time. No one told me Saint Thomas or the blessed Virgin is praying for me. It’s all so very cold and lonely down here… and silent.

If so, why? I mean if you’re already praying to Christ about your problems then what does it add to have Father John or neighbor Jane praying to Him for you as well?

No one says Fr. John is the mediator of all grace, or that Jane is the co-redemptrix of humanity.

And if Christ is already interceding with the Father about the poor kids killed in Norway or your great grammy’s diabetes or whatever, and rest assured He is, then what point you or anybody praying about these things as well?

To be picky, St. Paul says we should always pray for each other, not that we should ask others to pray for each other. I feel wrong asking anyone to pray for me, dead or alive, because I am the one who is responsible for my sins. Let them pray for me if they want, but I don’t want to ask anybody.

Point is, we are shown time and time again that intercessory prayer, even from humble human beings let alone heavenly saints, is powerfully effective. We see Abraham’s intercession for the people of Sodom. Moses’ intercession for Israel after the golden calf episode. The disciples praying in the upper room before Pentecost. Paul’s constant requests for prayers and exhortations as well as his constant reassurances that he as well as the ‘cloud of witnesses’ is praying for others.

There are no end of examples of intercessory prayer. And co-operation by this means in the saving work of Christ. Paul goes so far as to call himself a ‘co-laborer’ with Divinity, and to say that he has become all things to all people "so that by all means I (Paul) might save some’, thus claiming a share in God’s work of salvation itself.

I’ve never encountered this effectiveness you mention. Perhaps no one is praying for me…

The paragraph about St. Paul is actually a great example of what I mean. Our holy Scriptures say that the prayers of a righteous one are heard by God first and primarily. Catholics tend to use this as an example of why we should pray to saints, but I think it is meant as an injunction, telling us to become righteous ourselves. St. Paul was saying that he was doing everything he could to work with the blessed Trinity to procure good fruit in the world. It sounds more like a defense of free will than anything to do with intercession.

 

[JM3]

papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13fiden.htm

1. And who could think or say that the confidence so strongly felt in the patronage and protection of the Blessed Virgin is excessive? Undoubtedly the name and attributes of the absolute Mediator belong to no other than to Christ, for being one person, and yet both man and God, He restored the human race to the favour of the Heavenly Father: One Mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a redemption for all (1 Tim. ii. 5, 6). And yet, as the Angelic Doctor teaches, there is no reason why certain others should not be called in a certain way mediators between God and man, that is to say, in so far as they cooperate by predisposing and ministering in the union of man with God (Summa, p. 111., q. xxvi., articles 1, 2). Such are the angels and saints, the prophets and priests of both Testaments; but especially has the Blessed Virgin a claim to the glory of this title. For no single individual can even be imagined who has ever contributed or ever will contribute so much towards reconciling man with God. She offered to mankind. hastening to eternal ruin, a Saviour, at that moment when she received the announcement of the mystery of peace brought to this earth by the Angel, with that admirable act of consent in the name of the whole human race ( Summa. p. III., q. xxx., art. 1). She it is from whom is born Jesus; she is therefore truly His mother, and for this reason a worthy and acceptable “Mediatrix to the Mediator.” As the various mysteries present themselves one after the other in the formula of the Rosary for the meditation and contemplation of men’s minds, they also elucidate what we owe to Mary for our reconciliation and salvation. No one can fail to be sweetly affected when considering her who appeared in the house of Elizabeth as the minister of the divine gifts, and who presented her Son to the Shepherds, to the kings, and to Simeon. Moreover, one must remember that the Blood of Christ shed for our sake and those members in which He offers to His Father the wounds He received, the price of our liberty, are no other than the flesh and blood of the virgin, since the flesh of Jesus is the flesh of Mary, and however much it was exalted in the glory of His resurrection, nevertheless the nature of His flesh derived from Mary remained and still remains the same (de Assumpt. B. V. M., c. v., among the Opera S. Aug).

 

[JM3]

I feel comfortable praying to saints and especially Mary, but I do feel uncomfortable about that one prayer to Mother Mary that says about her, “our life, our hope”. I was wondering if that line is something the Church has said anything authoritatively about and explained or if it is just a prayer that just so happens to be very popular but never officially approved by the Church? -I’m curious if anyone happens to know.

The Glories of Mary by St. Alphonsus Liguori

(you can download a pdf of this book at this link)
themostholyrosary.com/catholic-books-virgin-mary.htm

In order to understand rightly the reason why the holy Church calls Mary our life, we must consider that as the soul gives life to the body, so divine grace gives life to the soul; for a soul without grace, though nominally alive, in truth is dead, as we find in the Apocalypse: ‘Thou hast the name of being alive, and thou art dead.’ As Mary, then, obtains for sinners, by her intercession, the gift of grace, she restores them to life.

 

[NorthTexan88]

Im sure this has probably also been discussed to death on here as well, but can someone please sum up what the co-redemtrix actually means? I really very much hope it doesnt mean that Mary is close to the same level as Jesus and she can forgive our sins