The blessed Virgin's intercession "vs." Christ's intercession

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Please show me what they are and refute them! I beg you!

This is an interesting fact to acknowledge. šŸ™‚ A discrepancy…

I do not believe this analogy applies. Nervous emotional bonds between parents and child is quite different from what God really is. ā€œOur Fatherā€ is a metaphor, isn’t it? God isn’t our literal Father in the way our individual parents are. That isn’t even possible. Still, He shares a common human flesh with us now (thank God).

I’m not arguing against ā€œanother’sā€ form of prayer. I’m trying to figure out what’s right and what’s wrong. I don’t want to ever be blasphemous.
What do you mean Our Father is a metaphor? God is our literal Father. Did God not reveal himself as HUMAN and DIVINE? Are we not made in Gods image.

Jesus is the WORD made FLESH. He had ears, he had emotions, he had hands, legs, feet. he was totally Human also.

When I die and I meet Christ I (AT LEAST PRAY I CAN) HUG him so so tight. That is what is making death for me worth it. I think about the arms of my Lord around me and think WOW this is Love.

Thats no metaphor my friend thats the real thing.
 
I don’t believe that Mary holds any special powers. God found favor with Mary, but the reason why is never explained. In the overall scheme of things, Mary was just a Jewish girl whom God decided to favor. This is a prime example of unconditional election. God had chosen Mary from before creation to be the mother of Jesus (Genesis 3:15). Mary didn’t think herself to be special. Mary also did not remain a virgin, as Jesus had half brothers and sisters (James being one of them).
Because you are posting on a Catholic site,
I must ask if your beliefs are yours alone or are
the beliefs an expression of your Baptist faith?

Now, since this is a Catholic site, I’ll remind you
that your stated beliefs are contrary to the teachings
of the Catholic Church — as you almost surely know.

From
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1103228.htm

Yesterday, August 15th marked the Feast of the Assumption.
In Italy, the Holy Father said the following to assembled pilgrims.
Code:
"Earthly affairs can wait; things of God demand action now, pope says

CASTEL GANDOLFO, Italy (CNS) -- Temporal things can wait; only the things of God merit acting upon without hesitation, Pope Benedict XVI said.

God's words and his will are the only things "that are truly urgent for our lives," he said.

Celebrating an early morning Mass Aug. 15, the feast of the Assumption of Mary, the pope reflected on the reading from the Gospel of Luke in which Mary visits Elizabeth "in haste" after the angel Gabriel announced to Mary God's plan that she conceive the son of God.

Mary's sense of haste is important, the pope said, because it shows "the only things in the world that merit haste are exactly the things of God."

Pope Benedict celebrated the Mass in the parish Church of St. Thomas, just across the main square from the papal villa in Castel Gandolfo. Those attending the Mass in the small church included retired Hong Kong Cardinal Joseph Zen Ze-kiun and the pope's brother, Msgr. Georg Ratzinger.

In his Mass homily, **the pope said the Old Testament shows that the Ark of the Covenant in the Temple of Jerusalem was the "the symbol of the presence of God among his people."

However, "the New Testament tells us that the real Ark of the Covenant is a living concrete person -- it's the Virgin Mary," he said.

Mary offered a new dwelling place for God by carrying Jesus in her womb, showing that God no longer lives in some static location, but "lives in a person and in one's heart," he said. **

**The pope said Mary invites everyone today to become, "in some modest way, an ark in which the Word of God is present" and has transformed and enlivened one's life. ..."**

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is Mary a model to all Christians in her acceptance of God's will?  Yes.
 
What do you mean Our Father is a metaphor? God is our literal Father. Did God not reveal himself as HUMAN and DIVINE? Are we not made in Gods image.

Jesus is the WORD made FLESH. He had ears, he had emotions, he had hands, legs, feet. he was totally Human also.

When I die and I meet Christ I (AT LEAST PRAY I CAN) HUG him so so tight. That is what is making death for me worth it. I think about the arms of my Lord around me and think WOW this is Love.

Thats no metaphor my friend thats the real thing.
That’s certainly a worthy emotional desire, but I have a feeling, given the description in the Revelation, that a half second after you (or I) meet Christ, we’re going to be flat on our faces on the floor, whatever floor there might be.
 
That’s certainly a worthy emotional desire, but I have a feeling, given the description in the Revelation, that a half second after you (or I) meet Christ, we’re going to be flat on our faces on the floor, whatever floor there might be.
Indeed, to meet Christ I think would be so overwhelming that hugging would be the last thing on my mind. Not that I don’t share your sentiment, rinnie. I just think the reality will play out much differently. Heck, if I saw an angel I imagine I would be overcome and paralyzed with shock and awe. Christ Himself? wow.
 
Friends :),

I often hear Catholics (ā€œour life, our sweetness, and our hopeā€) and Orthodox (ā€œmost holy Theotokos, save usā€) speak of the blessed Virgin in an intercessory manner. In addition to referring to her as Mediatrix, Vatican I is quite strong about her mediation. This is one thing that I was never fully convinced about since converting, and no one seemed eager to explain the situation to me. I became a Catholic without knowing all about the holy Mother of God.

My question is: why is Mary super-added as an intercessor to Christ, when Christ alone is said to be interceding for us to the Father? This has been answered a million times, I know, but my specific context is the relation between Mary/Christ and Christ/the Father. If we already have Christ our Lord interceding for us to the Father, the Ancient of Days, why would we need our Lady to intercede to Christ, who then intercedes to the Father? There is a step here that’s added on to what is given in the holy Scriptures.
I think the best way to answer this is to quote some paragraphs of True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary by St Louis de Montfort '*I AVOW, with all the Church, that Mary, being but a mere creature that has come from the hands of the Most High, is, in comparison with His Infinite Majesty, less than an atom; or rather she is nothing at all, because He only is He who is," and thus by consequence that grand Lord, always independent and sufficient to Himself, never had, and has not now, any absolute need of the Holy Virgin for the accomplishment of His will and for the manifestation of His
glory. He has but to will, in order to do every thing. Nevertheless I say that, things being
supposed as they are now, God having willed to commence and to complete His greatest works by the most holy Virgin, since He created her, we may well think He will not change His conduct in the eternal ages; for He is God, and He changes not either in His sentiments or in His conduct.


God the Father has not given His Only-begotten to the world except by Mary. Whatever
sighs the patriarchs may have sent forth,whatever prayers the prophets and the saints of the ancient law may have offered up to obtain that treasure for fiill four thousand years, it was but Mary that merited it ; **it was but Mary who found grace before Otd by the force of her prayers and the eminence of her virtues. The world was unworthy, says St Augustine, to receive the Son of God immediately from the Father’s hands. He has given Him to Mary in order that the world might receive Him through her. The Son
of God has made Himself Man ; but it was in Mary and by Mary. God the Holy Ghost has formed Jesus Christ in Mary ; but it was only after having asked her consent by one of the first ministers of His court **

God the Father has communicated to Mary His fruitfulness, as far as a mere creature was capable of it, in order that He might give her the power to produce His Son, aud all the members of His mystical Body. God the Son has descended into her virginal womb, as the new Adam into the terrestrial paradise, to take His pleasure there, and to work in secret the marvels of His grace.

God made Man has found His liberty in seeing Himself imprisoned in her womb. He has
made His Omnipotence shine forth in letting Himself be ctoried by that blessed Virgin. He has found His glory and His Father’s in hiding His splendours from all creatures here below, and revealing them to Mary only. He has glorified His Independence and His Majesty, in depending on that sweet Virgin, in His Conception, in His Birth, in His Presentation in the Temple, in His Hidden Life of thirty years, and even in His Death, where she was to be present, in order that He might make with her but one same sacrifice, and be immolated to the Eternal Father by her consent ; just as Isaac of old was offered by Abraham’s consent to the Will of God. It is she who has suckled Him, nourished Him, supported Him, brought Him up, and then sacrificed Him for us.

**Jesus Christ gave more glory to God the Father by submission to His Mother during
those thirty years than He would have given Him in converting the whole world by the
working of the most stupendous miracles. Oh, how highly we glorify God, when, to please Him, we submit ourselves to Mary, after the example of Jesus Christ, our Sole Exemplar ! **

If we examine narrowly the rest of our Blessed Lord’s Life, we shall see that it was His
Will to begin His miracles by Mary.
] He sanctified St. John in the womb of St. Elizabeth his mother ; but it was by Mary’s word. No sooner had she spoken than John was sanctified ; and this was His first and greatest miracle of grace. At the marriage at Cana He changed the water into wine ; but it was at Mary’s humble prayer ; and this was His first mirade of nature. He has begun and continued His miracles by Mary, and He will continue them to the end of ages by Mary also.

God the Holy Ghost being barren in God — that is to say, not producing another Divine
Person — is become fruitful by Mary, whom He has espoused. It is with her, in her, and of her, that He has produced His Masterpiece, which is a God made Man, and whom He goes on producing in the persons of His members daily to the end of the world. The predestinate are the members of that Adorable Head. This is the reason why He, the Holy Ghost, the more He and Mary, His dear and indissoluble Spouse in any soul, becomes the more active and mighty in producing Jesus Christ in that soul, and that
soul in Jesus Christ.
'*
 
St Louis de Montfort continues '*Inasmuch as grace perfects nature, and glory perfects grace, it is certain that our Lord is still, in heaven, as much the Son of Mary as He was on earth ; and that, consequently. He has preserved the most perfect obedience and submission of all children towards the best of all mothers.

But we must take great pains not to conceive of this dependence as any abasement or imperfection in Jesus Christ. For Mary is infinitely below her Son, who is God, and therefore she does not command Him, as a mother here below would command her child, who is below her. Mary, being altogether transformed into God by grace, and by the glory which transforms all the Saints into Him, asks nothing, wishes nothing, does nothing which is contrary to the Eternal and Immutable Will of God. When we read, then, in the writings of SS. Bernard, Bemardine, Bonaventure, and others, that in heaven and on earth every thing, even to God Himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin,
they mean to say that the authority which God has been well pleased to give her is so great, that it seems as if she has the same power as God and that her prayers and petitions are so powerful with God, that they always pass for commandments with His Majesty, who never resists the prayer of His dear Mother, because she is
always humble and conformed to His WilL

**If Moses, by the force of his prayer, arrested the anger of God against the Israelites, in a manner so powerfull that the Most High and infinitely merciful Lord, being unable to resist him, told him to let Him alone, that He might be angry with and punish that rebellious people, what must we not with much greater reason think of the prayer of the humble Mary, that worthy Mother of God, which is more powerful with His Majesty than the prayers and intercessions of all the Angels and Saints both in heaven
and on earth ?
**
Mary commands in the heavens the Angels and the Blessed. As a recompense for her profound humiliiy, God has given her the power and permission to fill with Saints the empty thrones from which the apostate angels fell by pride. Such has been the will of the Most High, who exalts the humble, that heaven, earth, and hell bend with good will or bad to the commandments of the humble Mary, whom He has made sovereign of heaven and earth, general of His armies, treasurer of His treasures, dispenser of His graces, worker of His greatest marvels, restorer of the human race, mediatrix
of men, the exterminator of the enemies of
God and the faithfull companion of His grandeurs and His triumphs.

God the Father wishes to have children by
Mary till the consumation of the world ; and He has said to her these words. In Jacob inherit — " Dwell in Jacob," — that is to say. Make your
dwelling and residence in My predestinedchildren, figured by Jacob, and not in the
reprobate children of the devil, figured by Esau.

Just as, in the natural and corporal genera-
tion of children, there is a father and a mother, so in the supematural and spiritual generation there is a Father, who is God, and a Mother, who is Mary. All the true children of God, the predestinate, have God for their Father, and Mary for their Mother. He who has not Mary for his Mother, has not God for his Father.
**This is the reason why the reprobate, such as heretics, schismatics, and others, who hate our Blessed Lady, or regard her with contempt and indifference, have not God for their Father, however much they boast of it, simply because they have not Mary for their Mother. For if they had her for their Mother, they would love and honour her as a true and good child naturally loves and honours the mother who has given him life.

The most infallible and indubitable sign by which we may distinguish a heretic, a man of
bad doctrine, a reprobate, from one of the pre- destinate, is that the heretic and the reprobate have nothing but contempt and indifference for our Blessed Lady, endeavouring by their words and examples to diminish the worship and love
of her openly or hiddenly , and sometimes under specious pretexts. Alas ! God the Father has not told Mary to dwell in them, for they are Esaus***. ’

I hope that in some way answers your questions, if not feel free to ask me anything šŸ™‚
 
Indeed, to meet Christ I think would be so overwhelming that hugging would be the last thing on my mind. Not that I don’t share your sentiment, rinnie. I just think the reality will play out much differently. Heck, if I saw an angel I imagine I would be overcome and paralyzed with shock and awe. Christ Himself? wow.
Oh not me Steve, I am going to run to my Father and put my arms around him and hold him so tight and I KNOW I am going to feel just like a kid again when I was a little girl in my daddys arms here in this world.

There is this picture of Jesus, I am sure you have seen it on this site many have it. Anyway it is a picture of him with his arms hugging this Man with Long hair. I have it on a plate.

When my brother died 7 years ago the person’s face you cannot see. only the back of him, anyway that could pass for a double of my Brother. Age, hair, height, everything.

I don’t think it will be shock to me at all. My dad told me once that we all KNOW God. So I started thinking it was probally before we were born, maybe in the womb or something that we met him. But anyway I don’t know how but my Dad said you will know him.

I know I will know those eyes, I know I will. And I am going to be just like a Child and run to my Father. I don’t think God will mind at all if I hug him. and I know he will smile, and be so so happy and hold me and tears of Joy.

Then he may say, okay now about that Purgatory time:eek: But it will be worth it:D
 
That’s certainly a worthy emotional desire, but I have a feeling, given the description in the Revelation, that a half second after you (or I) meet Christ, we’re going to be flat on our faces on the floor, whatever floor there might be.
Only if I trip:D;)
 
Well, rinnie. Assuming I fight the good fight to the end, I will join you in your hugs…

as soon as I am able to feel worthy enough to lift myself from prostrating. šŸ˜‰
 
Only if I trip:D;)
You know, somehow I could imagine St Francis of Assisi saying that šŸ™‚ I wont argue with you about it, I’m sure you’re right after all we must become like a child to enter the kingdom of God, to paraphrase crudely. I suppose thats just not my path or perhaps I haven’t reached that stage in my pilgrimage on this earth yet.
 
Well, rinnie. Assuming I fight the good fight to the end, I will join you in your hugs…

as soon as I am able to feel worthy enough to lift myself from prostrating. šŸ˜‰
Oh well see I thank God I don’t have to make up that decision. Its for God to sort out. BUt IF I am IN, I am Hugging!😃

But if I had to feel worthy of Gods love, well that day would never come, and I would never get into heaven.

Personally between you and I. When I see what Jesus went through for us. Not one of us are worthy. But the way I see it, if he loved us THAT much to SUFFER that much, well lets just say THATS ALOT OF LOVE. We got a shot!!😃
 
I would like to say something else if I may.

I can’t remember is this was said, but even if it was, its worth repeating.

There is only ONE mediator between US and God. I am hoping people are not getting the one mediator mixed up with intercession. They are 2 very different things.

The only way we can get to The Father is through the Son.

But we ALL can pray for one another. That is what intercession is. Praying for one another.

So to be honest this whole thread does not make sense to me personally the way it says Marys intercession vs Christ’s intercession. I just don’t get it.

It;s like we have Christ and Mary compeating against one another or something. Mary prays to Christ just like we do. So this makes no sense.

It would be like saying if I ask you to pray for me, and Mary to pray for me. that Christ won’t hear our prayers or something.🤷
 
Also if you read the book of Job, God told Jobs friends to have Job pray for them because Job is righteous.

Well mary is Righteous. and she is the Mother of God. And If intercession is wrong why did God tell Jobs friends to have HIM pray for them. Why did God not say to Jobs friends PRAY for yourself?
 
I would like to say something else if I may.

I can’t remember is this was said, but even if it was, its worth repeating.

There is only ONE mediator between US and God. I am hoping people are not getting the one mediator mixed up with intercession. They are 2 very different things.

The only way we can get to The Father is through the Son.

But we ALL can pray for one another. That is what intercession is. Praying for one another.

So to be honest this whole thread does not make sense to me personally the way it says Marys intercession vs Christ’s intercession. I just don’t get it.

It;s like we have Christ and Mary compeating against one another or something. Mary prays to Christ just like we do. So this makes no sense.

It would be like saying if I ask you to pray for me, and Mary to pray for me. that Christ won’t hear our prayers or something.🤷
Thank you.

There is no ā€œversusā€ between the intercession Christ and Our Mother May.
How could there be? She agreed to bring Him to life among us and at
the very same time she remains as always a blessed creation of God.

I ask my family to pray for me (to God).
I ask Mary and the angels and others saints to pray for me (to God).

No conflict whatsoever!
 
For some reason, Mary gets me faster to Jesus than when I pray to Jesus directly. (And that’s why I ask for her intercession.) In that respect, I seem to have a lot in common with lots of other people.

I consider her ā€œresponsibleā€ (in an intercessory way only) for saving me from an awful lot of physical, emotional, practical, and spiritual danger, and even death. She’s my 9-1-1. It’s just experience, it’s not a ā€œtheologyā€ per se or a rejection of her Son or the Trinity as direct prayer reference points.

Having experienced this, there’s no reason not to repeat the strategy which works.
🤷
 
For some reason, Mary gets me faster to Jesus than when I pray to Jesus directly. (And that’s why I ask for her intercession.) In that respect, I seem to have a lot in common with lots of other people.

I consider her ā€œresponsibleā€ (in an intercessory way only) for saving me from an awful lot of physical, emotional, practical, and spiritual danger, and even death. She’s my 9-1-1. It’s just experience, it’s not a ā€œtheologyā€ per se or a rejection of her Son or the Trinity as direct prayer reference points.

Having experienced this, there’s no reason not to repeat the strategy which works.
🤷
Hi Elizabeth, must be something about the name. That is my Real name. But anyway I feel the exact way you do.

I pray and ask her to pray for me about 20 times a day. I ask her to pray for my kids constantely.

I am like you in everyway in your feelings. She has helped me SO much. I believe in her intercession and the Power of her prayers. I believe the reason her prayers ARE so powerful is because God listens to the prayers of the righteous and we know she is righteous.

If she asks Anything of GOd and it is his will, its going to happen. Of course we must also pray. But the more we pray for ouself and others the more Grace that is given to us or that Person.

I have learned when I pray and ask her to pray with me and for my intention and it does not happen it was for the best. The one thing I always remember to ask her to ask God for, and I know God will answer is the GRACE to be able to accept the word NO.

I have learned that no matter what if my will is not the will of God its not going to happen with his grace. And he knows better then I what is good for me. So when the answer is NO, and it is many of times, with her prayers and Gods grace it makes it easier for me to accept and move on.😃
 
Could it be that if we can empathise more with a person, then it is easier to pray to that person? Of course we have to Love God the Father (its commanded) but I think its really a hard thing to do straight away as He can seem more distant. Mary as a mother is someone we can understand easier.

Maybe I’m totally wrong here. If so be sure to point it out please
 
Could it be that if we can empathise more with a person, then it is easier to pray to that person? Of course we have to Love God the Father (its commanded) but I think its really a hard thing to do straight away as He can seem more distant. Mary as a mother is someone we can understand easier.

Maybe I’m totally wrong here. If so be sure to point it out please
I totally agree with you my friend. Actually my Dad lived by that understanding.

He ALWAYS told me if I am trouble go to the Blessed Mother she understands suffering, especially if its for your child. She saw her child crucified she understands our pain.
 
Yeah, in answer to the OP - it doesn’t make sense to me either.

It’s a good thing Marianism isn’t compulsory for Catholics.
 
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