The Blue Nun

[Ahimsa]

In 1620, teenaged Sister Maria of Agreda, began having unnerving visions, or raptures. Cloistered in the convent, she would meditate for hours, sometimes all day, and return and tell her fellow sisters wondrous stories of her “over 500” spiritual travels to a faraway land, meeting savages and telling them of the Word of Christ. She experienced many of these episodes of rapturous meditation and bi-location, and word began to spread of the young nun in the convent. Finally, convinced of the reality of her experiences, she wrote a book in which she described, in great detail, her missionary work bringing the Word of Christ to the savages of The New World. In early Fifteenth-Century Spain, this was not a prudent claim to make during the height of the Holy Inquisition, which quickly put to death untold thousands found “guilty” of witchcraft and dealings with demonic forces. Before long the Inquisition took a pointed interest in the good Sister of Agreda, and she found herself at the center of a dangerous, whirling controversy. She insisted to the Father Inquisitor that she was indeed bi-locating and doing God’s work, but to no avail. A very public trial ensued with the full brunt of the powerful Church bearing down on the poor nun from Agreda. During the height of her trial, a newly returned expedition of conquistadors and friars arrived in Spain with a wondrous tale.

 It seems that the Spanish explorers, while in the unexplored region north of Mexico, had encountered numerous Native American tribes in New Mexico, Arizona and Texas who had already been converted to Christianity, and somehow knew of "Jesus Christ" the Savior. Even more fantastic were the Indian's claims of being visited by a white-skinned "Blue Lady" who appeared to many, drifting in a blue haze while she preached the word of the Lord in their native languages. She helped them to build crosses and places of worship, and even handed out rosaries and [religious objects](http://shell.amigo.net/%7Etmv/Special_Inv4.html).

For a quantum-physics/paranormal perspective.

 

[udral]

Ahimsa:

In 1620, teenaged Sister Maria of Agreda, began having unnerving visions, or raptures. Cloistered in the convent, she would meditate for hours, sometimes all day, and return and tell her fellow sisters wondrous stories of her “over 500” spiritual travels to a faraway land, meeting savages and telling them of the Word of Christ. She experienced many of these episodes of rapturous meditation and bi-location, and word began to spread of the young nun in the convent. Finally, convinced of the reality of her experiences, she wrote a book in which she described, in great detail, her missionary work bringing the Word of Christ to the savages of The New World. In early Fifteenth-Century Spain, this was not a prudent claim to make during the height of the Holy Inquisition, which quickly put to death untold thousands found “guilty” of witchcraft and dealings with demonic forces. Before long the Inquisition took a pointed interest in the good Sister of Agreda, and she found herself at the center of a dangerous, whirling controversy. She insisted to the Father Inquisitor that she was indeed bi-locating and doing God’s work, but to no avail. A very public trial ensued with the full brunt of the powerful Church bearing down on the poor nun from Agreda. During the height of her trial, a newly returned expedition of conquistadors and friars arrived in Spain with a wondrous tale.

 It seems that the Spanish explorers, while in the unexplored region north of Mexico, had encountered numerous Native American tribes in New Mexico, Arizona and Texas who had already been converted to Christianity, and somehow knew of "Jesus Christ" the Savior. Even more fantastic were the Indian's claims of being visited by a white-skinned "Blue Lady" who appeared to many, drifting in a blue haze while she preached the word of the Lord in their native languages. She helped them to build crosses and places of worship, and even handed out rosaries and [religious objects](http://shell.amigo.net/%7Etmv/Special_Inv4.html).

For a quantum-physics/paranormal perspective.

The main problem I have with these types of accounts is that there are too many of them.

Psychics have claimed to speak with the dead, to be able to “remotely view” locations far away, I think at the height of insanity even the CIA was training psychic spies. People have claimed to have out of body experiences etc. Are they all liars? I don’t think so. I don’t think Mary of Agreda lied, I think her experience was genuine. But whether it was any more “real” than other “paranormal” experiences, I don’t know.

As far as the Mexico story goes,

Total population: 104.7m
Number of Catholics: 93.6m (89%)
History: Spanish adventurers accompanied by Roman Catholic clergy reached Mexico in the early 16th Century, leading to conquest and rule by Spain of what became known then as New Spain. Mexico won independence in 1821, but Catholicism has remained the dominant religion. However, evangelical churches have reported steady and significant growth for more than three decades.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/4243727.stm

Early 16th century is early 1500’s, the Agreda story takes place 100 years later. Obviously the Catholic clergy were preaching in Mexico, and even if they didn’t personally go to those areas, who is to say that Mexicans themselves didn’t spread Christianity especially if they had been converted?

 

[Ahimsa]

udral:

The main problem I have with these types of accounts is that there are too many of them.

Why is the number of accounts a problem?

 

[udral]

Ahimsa:

Why is the number of accounts a problem?

Because they included psychics, alien abductions, astral projections (the whole silver chord being out of our body business), being a medium and talking to the dead, seeing ghosts etc.

I think some of those peoples (i.e. Uri Geller) are definite frauds exploiting the gullibility of people to make a profit, but some have had genuine experiences. I’ve spoken with a person who experienced “astral projection” i…e leaving her body and seeing the silver chord connecting you to it. I’ve read an account of a woman who was able to travel this way to another room when she was kept a prisoner in her own home in a Muslim country.

When I read about nuns that spent their lives in solitary prayer and ended up having experiences such as that, I am very skeptical.

If I saw a nun being in two places at once, then I’d believe it. But until then it is no different from psychics/abduction stories/astral projections and all the rest.

 

[Ahimsa]

udral:

But until then it is no different from psychics/abduction stories/astral projections and all the rest.

So you’re saying psychic abilities and astral projection (which really can be separated from things like alien abductions) are hard to believe, but could be true?

 

[udral]

Ahimsa:

So you’re saying psychic abilities and astral projection (which really can be separated from things like alien abductions) are hard to believe, but could be true?

Well, I think the experience of those people is genuine. But so far there is 0 evidence that they actually leave their bodies and go somewhere else.

People have had some “near death” experiences as well which involves meeting dead relatives, going through a tunnel of light etc. I think the experience is real, I don’t think those people are lying. But I’ve also read that pilots experience something similar when under extreme g-forces, and people on LSD have “out of body” experiences as well, or something along those lines.

Of course they could be true, anything could be true. But without evidence I see no reason to believe it is true. From my perspective these claims have to do with psychological effects generated by the mind, not actual psychic, remote viewing, or astral projection experiences.

 

[Ahimsa]

udral:

Well, I think the experience of those people is genuine. But so far there is 0 evidence that they actually leave their bodies and go somewhere else.

People have had some “near death” experiences as well which involves meeting dead relatives, going through a tunnel of light etc. I think the experience is real, I don’t think those people are lying. But I’ve also read that pilots experience something similar when under extreme g-forces, and people on LSD have “out of body” experiences as well, or something along those lines.

Of course they could be true, anything could be true. But without evidence I see no reason to believe it is true. From my perspective these claims have to do with psychological effects generated by the mind, not actual psychic, remote viewing, or astral projection experiences.

So your basic suspicion is with the idea that the mind is (or can be) separate from the body.

 

[udral]

Ahimsa:

So your basic suspicion is with the idea that the mind is (or can be) separate from the body.

Well, not just that.

It’s the whole notion of supernatural abilities in people that I question. People make so many claims: reading minds, viewing remote locations, being a medium into the “afterlife” world.

I don’t think the claim of alien abductions is separate from it, look at some of these:

The alien abduction story that seems to have started the cult beliefs about alien visitation and experimentation is the Betty and Barney Hill story. **The Hills claim to have been abducted by aliens on September 19, 1961. Betty first “remembered” her abduction during a series of nightmares, which she told Barney about. Barney claims the aliens took a sample of his sperm. Betty claims they stuck a needle in her belly button. She took people out to an alien landing spot, but only she could see the aliens and their craft. The Hills recalled most of their story under hypnosis a few years after the abduction. Barney Hill reported that the aliens had “wraparound eyes,” a rather unusual feature. ** However, twelve days earlier an episode of “The Outer Limits” featured just such an alien being (Kottmeyer). According to Robert Schaeffer, “we can find all the major elements of contemporary UFO abductions in a 1930 comic adventure, Buck Rogers in the 25th Century.”

…

Whitley Strieber, who has written several books about his alleged abductions, **came to the realization he had been abducted by aliens after psychotherapy and hypnosis. Strieber claims that he saw aliens set his roof on fire. He says he has traveled to distant planets and back during the night. He wants us to believe that he and his family alone can see the aliens and their spacecraft while others see nothing. Strieber comes off as a very disturbed person, but one who really believes he sees and is being harassed by aliens. ** He describes his feelings precisely enough to warrant believing he was in a very agitated psychological state prior to his visitation by aliens. A person in this heightened state of anxiety will be prone to hysteria and be especially vulnerable to radically changing behavior or belief patterns. When Strieber was having an anxiety attack he consulted his analyst, Robert Klein, and Budd Hopkins, an alien abduction researcher. Then, under hypnosis, Strieber started recalling the horrible aliens and their visitations.

skepdic.com/aliens.html

It is also important to note that those quotes are taking from a skeptical website that is focused on debunking such claims. What if you read a first hand account of one of those people? Might they fail to mention how they came to believe they were abducted? And it might not even be intentional, they might truly and honestly believe they were abducted.

I don’t believe aliens are abducting anyone, there is just no evidence of that. The fact that there are nonetheless accounts doesn’t tell me much. There are accounts of all sorts of things.

Until there’s evidence I am not going to believe it. There have always been these sorts of claims, and I bet there will always be these sorts of claims. I am not about to start taking all those people at their word.