The Body of Christ And The Church

[Anna_Scott]

There have been many discussions regarding the way Catholics view non-Catholic Christians or “separated brethren.”

So, I thought it would be good to ask this question: Do you believe there is a difference between the Body of Christ and the Church?

I would love to hear your definitions of both and an explanation regarding whether or not they are one and the same or two different things altogether.

Thanks,
Anna

 

[R_C]

Dear Anna, please read the Catholic Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium. Then you will know what every Catholic believes and professes on this delicate matter.

Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as an entity with visible delineation through which He communicated truth and grace to all.

But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element.

For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body.

This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd, and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority, which He erected for all ages as “the pillar and mainstay of the truth”.

This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity.

The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter.

For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.

They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power.

In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Dear Anna, please read the Catholic Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium. Then you will know what every Catholic believes and professes on this delicate matter.

R_C,
Thank you–very helpful. I will read through this carefully.

Anna

 

[Ad_Orientem]

See Colossians i, 24: “…his body, which is the church…”

See also Mystici Corporis Christi by Pope Pius XII. It opens: “The doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church[1], was first taught us by the Redeemer Himself.” The footnote cites the verse above.

 

[SteveVH]

There have been many discussions regarding the way Catholics view non-Catholic Christians or “separated brethren.”

So, I thought it would be good to ask this question: Do you believe there is a difference between the Body of Christ and the Church?

I would love to hear your definitions of both and an explanation regarding whether or not they are one and the same or two different things altogether.

Thanks,
Anna

Its a great question, Anna. I have to believe that the Body of Christ and the Church are one and the same. I think the Catholic view is that one is in communion with the Body of Christ to the extent that they adhere to the Apostolic teachings which have come to us through both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition and which subsist in the Church. I just can’t see how they can be separated. Concerning the Church we are told that Christ is the Head and we are the Body. The Body of Christ, then, with Jesus as its Head, is what constitutes the Church.

There seems to be a tendancy in this day and age to imagine an invisible “church” to which anyone, regardless of their beliefs, is a member, so long as they profess some belief in Christ. Christ founded one Church and he desires that all belong to this one Church as one Body.

 

[Anna_Scott]

See Colossians i, 24: “…his body, which is the church…”

See also Mystici Corporis Christi by Pope Pius XII. It opens: “The doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church[1], was first taught us by the Redeemer Himself.” The footnote cites the verse above.

Ad Orientem,

Quotes from Mystici Corporis Christi:

1. . . . Similarly, the Savior of mankind out of His infinite goodness has provided in a wonderful way for His Mystical Body, endowing it with the Sacraments, so that, as though by an uninterrupted series of graces, its members should be sustained from birth to death, and that generous provision might be made for the social needs of the Church. Through the waters of Baptism those who are born into this world dead in sin are not only born again and made members of the Church, but being stamped with a spiritual seal they become able and fit to receive the other Sacraments. . . .
2. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. “For in one spirit” says the Apostle, “were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free.”[17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith.[18] And therefore, if a man refuse to hear the Church, let him be considered - so the Lord commands - as a heathen and a publican. [19] It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.

What I find confusing is that according to Catholic teaching; through Holy Baptism we are born again and made members of the Church. The Catholic Church recognizes Baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit performed outside the Catholic Church, Yet, those of us Baptized outside the CC are told we are separated brethren. If the Body of Christ and the Church are one and the same, and Baptism brings us into the Body of Christ; how can we not be part of His Church?

This is very confusing to me, even after many discussions on the issue.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . .I have to believe that the Body of Christ and the Church are one and the same.

Agreed.

I think the Catholic view is that one is in communion with the Body of Christ to the extent that they adhere to the Apostolic teachings which have come to us through both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition and which subsist in the Church. I just can’t see how they can be separated.

Agreed.

In fact, I think the disturbing problems we are experiencing in TEC are due to a departure; and in some cases, a reckless abandonment of the “Apostolic teachings which have come to us through both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.”

Concerning the Church we are told that Christ is the Head and we are the Body. The Body of Christ, then, with Jesus as its Head, is what constitutes the Church.

Agreed.

There seems to be a tendancy in this day and age to imagine an invisible “church” to which anyone, regardless of their beliefs, is a member, so long as they profess some belief in Christ. Christ founded one Church and he desires that all belong to this one Church as one Body.

Once again, I agree.

In my Anglican Parish, we profess our faith through the Nicene Creed, as do Catholics.

We profess our faith in “one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church,” and “one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins.” We acknowledge ourselves, as well as Catholics in Communion with Rome, as part of the “one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.”

Catholics see non-Catholic Christians as separated from the “one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church,” even though Catholics acknowledge that we enter the Church/Body of Christ through Holy Baptism.

This still makes no sense to me, even after 4 years on CAF. :doh2:

As always, I appreciate your comments,

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Dear Anna, please read the Catholic Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium. Then you will know what every Catholic believes and professes on this delicate matter.

R_C,
I think my response to SteveVH also covers the quotes you posted from Lumen Gentium. If not, please let me know.

Thanks so much for all the effort in providing these quotes. It really does help the discussion.

Anna

 

[R_C]

What I find confusing is that according to Catholic teaching; through Holy Baptism we are born again and made members of the Church. The Catholic Church recognizes Baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit performed outside the Catholic Church, Yet, those of us Baptized outside the CC are told we are separated brethren. If the Body of Christ and the Church are one and the same, and Baptism brings us into the Body of Christ; how can we not be part of His Church?

This is very confusing to me, even after many discussions on the issue.

Anna

Part of the Church, but not in full communion.

And you should be glad of the wisdom and charity of the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit! This is what I mean:

• St. Augustine, on the other hand, held a harsher opinion, as expressed in his “On Baptism”: he states that “baptism can be conferred outside the Catholic communion by heretics or schismatics - as long as they give it in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, because the real source of baptism is God and not any human being - but that it will be only after you come back to the Church that the baptism received outside of the Church becomes efficacious”.
• Even harsher were Cyprian of Carthage and Tertullian, who simply rejected baptism by heretics as “an inoperative mock-baptism”.
• It was Pope Stephen I, the Bishop of Rome, who - despite the position of such great bishops and even of councils - laid chief stress on the objective nature of the sacrament, the virtue of which depended neither on the officiating priest, nor on the receiver, but solely on the institution of Christ (a correct doctrine, of course, given that he could not err on matters of faith, and consistent with the doctrine we follow today). So he considered heretical baptism valid, provided only it was administered with intention to baptize and in the right form, so that heretics coming into the church needed only confirmation.
• This teaching was further ratified in the First Council of Nicaea (Canon 8) and in the Council of Trent (Session 7, Canon 4).

The issue you are mentioning is with the fact that all those who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church are in what we canonically term “material heresy” (for it is not by free will that the doctrine containing theological errors was embraced, and thus there is no sin on them). We thus affirm now that non-Catholic Christians (and all people, in general) are objectively in heresy, but is not formally guilty of heresy if

1. their ignorance of the truth is due to their upbringing in a particular religious tradition (to which they may even be scrupulously faithful), and
2. they are not morally responsible for their ignorance of the truth.

The issue, then, as you can imagine, is quite delicate: those Christians who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church are not heretics (as in formal heresy) and thus are members of the Church and honored rightfully with the blessed name of Christians.

Yet, the fact that they follow doctrines that carry theological errors makes them be - without any direct guilt - in a state that hinders full communion with the Church, for a necessary and direct consequence of following a doctrine partially erroneous is to depart from orthodox apostolic teaching, which implies, as Thomas Aquinas wrote, “a species of infidelity …] restricting belief to certain points of Christ’s doctrine selected and fashioned at pleasure” (not by them, but by the men that originated the community they belong to and the doctrine they follow). Since the sin of heresy itself is destructive of the virtue of Christian faith, strikes at the very unity of the Church, and challenges the divine authority, of the Church, then those who (through no direct fault of their own) follow such a doctrine are not fully members of the Church. Personally, I am reminded of the man who casted out demons in the name of Christ:

John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him because he was not following us.”

“Do not stop him,” Jesus said. "For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us.

“For us”, not “with us”. For later the Lord clearly stated: “whoever does not gather with me scatters” - and this is the one thing that all non-Catholic doctrines have in common: they bring forth division.

Pope Pius IX stated the teaching very nicely:

It is known to Us and to You that they who are in invincible ignorance concerning our religion but observe the natural law and are ready to obey God and lead an honest and righteous life, can, with the help of Divine light and grace, attain to eternal life, for God will not allow any one to be eternally punished who is not willfully guilty.

Needless to say, the Holy Spirit moves all Christians towards unity in “one flock with one shepherd”, given that ultimately “if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand”, and while many houses are built on the sand by men, so that they crumble under the storms, our Lord was like the wise man who built His house on the rock, so that it will never fail and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it, a city built on a hill, that cannot be hidden.

 

[R_C]

In my Anglican Parish, we profess our faith through the Nicene Creed, as do Catholics.

We profess our faith in “one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church,” and “one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins.” We acknowledge ourselves, as well as Catholics in Communion with Rome, as part of the “one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.”

Catholics see non-Catholic Christians as separated from the “one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church,” even though Catholics acknowledge that we enter the Church/Body of Christ through Holy Baptism.

This still makes no sense to me, even after 4 years on CAF.

Maybe because our Anglican Parish, despite it all, is, after all, Anglican Meaning:

-it belongs to that community which separated from the Catholic Church in 1534 prompted by a dispute over the annulment of the marriage of King Henry VIII to Catherine of Aragon, and became an established church by an Act of Parliament in the Act of Supremacy;

• the same community, after the 1558 Elizabethan settlement ,developed the understanding that it was both Catholic and Reformed - “reformed” as in shaped by some of the doctrinal principles of the 16th century Protestant Reformation, in particular in the Thirty-Nine Articles and the Book of Common Prayer.

As you can see, that’s not quite in the spirit of “I believe in the Church, that is one, holy, catholic and apostolic”.

Surely the Anglo-Catholics (early 19th century) affirm the Catholic heritage and identity rather than the Protestant heritage…but that still doesn’t make them fully Catholic. The communion is almost full, though, and we can say: digitus Dei est hic!

 

[adf417]

Catholics see non-Catholic Christians as separated from the “one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church,” even though Catholics acknowledge that we enter the Church/Body of Christ through Holy Baptism.

Hi Anna I would like to comment on this if I may…

Catholics also see other Catholics in a similar sense. When a brother comes to mass but does not come up for communion (b/c of his seperation due to sin or whatever) it hurts those who are receiving just as much as it does to see all non-Catholics not coming to mass. Even within our own community there are those who are not in full communion at times but with the grace of God and help of the community they once again will join us at the table.

Peace sister!!!

 

[aidanbradypop]

Anna…as a former Baptist…the view of the “church” is that the faithful are the church or Body of Christ and Christ is the head.

They do not believe that the Body(Church) is the actual Catholic Church but rather simply the faithful people. That is a Southern Baptist view of it.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

If the Body of Christ and the Church are one and the same, and Baptism brings us into the Body of Christ; how can we not be part of His Church?

I don’t know where you are getting this distinction between “Church” and “Body of Christ.” They are synonymous terms. I understand the distinction between those who are visibly members of the Catholic Church, vs. those whom God saves through extraordinary means (such as the thief on the cross); but it’s not like the latter are in the Body of Christ and not in the Church.

Some would say there are degrees of being in the Church, so that schismatics are “partly” in the Church. They infer this from phrases in Church documents like “not in full communion” (which implies the possibility of “partial communion”). I’m not a theologian, but this doesn’t sound right to me. “Communion” means a close relationship, but clearly it does not always imply the closest of relationships, since there is a distinction of degree. If you are engaged to someone, you have a close relationship, but you are not married. I think it’s the same with schismatics.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

Just noticed part of my post could be taken the wrong way. I fully accept the Church’s terminology of “full communion,” I am just skeptical of the inference mentioned above.

Also - it is conceivable that one could be made a member of the Church by baptism, then immediately (or later, at the age of reason or when they understand the truth and resist it) cease to be a member of it. The oddity of this situation can be explained by the oddity of schism.

 

[SteveVH]

Catholics see non-Catholic Christians as separated from the “one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church,” even though Catholics acknowledge that we enter the Church/Body of Christ through Holy Baptism.

This still makes no sense to me, even after 4 years on CAF. :doh2:

As always, I appreciate your comments,

Anna

Yes, one enters into the Church through Baptism as through a door. All of us who have been Baptised are then brothers and sisters in Christ. But we have to remember what Baptism really is. We die to our old nature; we are cleansed and rise with Christ. But we don’t rise until the end of this life and get dirty again in the meantime. Our Baptism, which fills us with sanctified grace, must be lived out through our entire life until we realize the resurrection. In a sense, it is not something that happened to us, it is something that is happening to us.

While Baptism is essential, it will not save us from future grave sin. The grace we received in Baptism needs to be strengthened and renewed, through Reconciliation, Eucharist and Confirmation. There are many who lack these channels of grace; who even reject them outright. So while they are part of the Church, through Baptism, they cannot be considered to be in full comunion with the Body of Christ. So we consider them separated bretheren, but bretheren nevertheless. They’re part of the family. They just ran away from home.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I appreciate all the excellent replies everyone.

I do believe the Body of Christ and the Church are one and the same. What is confusing to me about Catholic doctrine is the idea that those of us not in Communion with Rome, who are Baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, become (according to Rome) part of the Body of Christ which is the same as the Church. Yet, somehow our status is relegated to something akin to one foot in the door of the Church and one foot out. It seems that one is either part of the Body of Christ or one is not.

If you consider us to be your “separated brethren”; does that mean you believe we are separated from Christ?

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Yes, one enters into the Church through Baptism as through a door. All of us who have been Baptised are then brothers and sisters in Christ. But we have to remember what Baptism really is. We die to our old nature; we are cleansed and rise with Christ. But we don’t rise until the end of this life and get dirty again in the meantime. Our Baptism, which fills us with sanctified grace, must be lived out through our entire life until we realize the resurrection. In a sense, it is not something that happened to us, it is something that is happening to us.

While Baptism is essential, it will not save us from future grave sin. The grace we received in Baptism needs to be strengthened and renewed, through Reconciliation, Eucharist and Confirmation. There are many who lack these channels of grace; who even reject them outright. So while they are part of the Church, through Baptism, they cannot be considered to be in full comunion with the Body of Christ. So we consider them separated bretheren, but bretheren nevertheless. They’re part of the family. They just ran away from home.

Steve,
Does that mean that one who is Baptized outside the Catholic Church, and never enters into Communion with Rome, receives no further Graces; and therefore falls outside the Church/Body of Christ? Wouldn’t that be a road that does not lead to salvation, according to Catholic Doctrine?

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

I don’t know where you are getting this distinction between “Church” and “Body of Christ.” They are synonymous terms.

Ad Orientem,
I am not making the distinction. I believe they are one and the same. I’m asking for the Catholic view and explanation.

OP:

There have been many discussions regarding the way Catholics view non-Catholic Christians or “separated brethren.”

So, I thought it would be good to ask this question: Do you believe there is a difference between the Body of Christ and the Church?

I would love to hear your definitions of both and an explanation regarding whether or not they are one and the same or two different things altogether.

Thanks,
Anna

I understand the distinction between those who are visibly members of the Catholic Church, vs. those whom God saves through extraordinary means (such as the thief on the cross); but it’s not like the latter are in the Body of Christ and not in the Church.

I understand.

Some would say there are degrees of being in the Church, so that schismatics are “partly” in the Church. They infer this from phrases in Church documents like “not in full communion” (which implies the possibility of “partial communion”). I’m not a theologian, but this doesn’t sound right to me.

It doesn’t sound right to me either, which is why I started this thread.

“Communion” means a close relationship, but clearly it does not always imply the closest of relationships, since there is a distinction of degree. If you are engaged to someone, you have a close relationship, but you are not married. I think it’s the same with schismatics.

So, where does that leave us? Certainly not the Bride of Christ/Church.

Just noticed part of my post could be taken the wrong way. I fully accept the Church’s terminology of “full communion,” I am just skeptical of the inference mentioned above.

Noted.

Also - it is conceivable that one could be made a member of the Church by baptism, then immediately (or later, at the age of reason or when they understand the truth and resist it) cease to be a member of it. The oddity of this situation can be explained by the oddity of schism.

I realize that one can walk away from Christ.

Do you see those in “schism” as having ceased to be a member of the Church/Body of Christ?

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Hi Anna I would like to comment on this if I may…

Catholics also see other Catholics in a similar sense. When a brother comes to mass but does not come up for communion (b/c of his seperation due to sin or whatever) it hurts those who are receiving just as much as it does to see all non-Catholics not coming to mass. Even within our own community there are those who are not in full communion at times but with the grace of God and help of the community they once again will join us at the table.

Peace sister!!!

adf417,

Peace to you as well.

I appreciate this comment and I can relate to this explanation.

In my own life, it is sin and separation from our Lord that concerns me. Lack of confession and true repentance can impair our Communion with Christ. Reconciliation and Penance are a vital part of the Saccramental life of Christians.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna…as a former Baptist…the view of the “church” is that the faithful are the church or Body of Christ and Christ is the head.

They do not believe that the Body(Church) is the actual Catholic Church but rather simply the faithful people. That is a Southern Baptist view of it.

aidanbradypop,

I know. I’m a former Southern Baptist too.

Anna