The book of Genesis is driving me nuts!

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dizzy_dave

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I just started to read the bible again, I thought I’d start at the beginning (Genesis). Genesis 8, ok Noah and the family build an ark and take animals, birds, etc. since the ark had windows in it how did they keep flies inside?, wouldn’t the roof of the ark be absolutly covered with birds since they would drowned otherwise? How did they gather up all these animals, especially insects - do you know how many of them there are? If God was starting all over how did he “kill” the sea creatures since they were already in the water?
 
The author of stories such as Noah were not contemporary with the event - books of the old testament were usually written down many hundreds of years after the “event”.

There are several possibilities regarding the questionable details in the story:
  1. If one assumes the event being described was an actual historical occurrence, it is still reasonable that many details such as you mention would be lost or unknown. Such stories circulated in the oral tradition for hundreds of years and an author eventually gathered the various versions of the story and created what we are reading. By the time this was done, most of the less important details were unknown to the actual author.
  2. If the intent of the author was not to teach history but to relate a story of God’s relationship with mankind, then once again, the little details that you mention are unimportant in the teaching process.
You can find an excellant discussion of the literary forms in the old testament in the book “And God Said What?” by Margaret Ralph, published by the Paulist Press and used in many Catholic adult education classes.
 
You must also consider that the flood only covered the whole world , not the hole planet. We today may use the terms interchangebley, but back then, this was not the case. It may have been only a regional flood taking out the middle east…
 
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dizzy_dave:
I just started to read the bible again, I thought I’d start at the beginning (Genesis). Genesis 8, ok Noah and the family build an ark and take animals, birds, etc. since the ark had windows in it how did they keep flies inside?, wouldn’t the roof of the ark be absolutly covered with birds since they would drowned otherwise? How did they gather all these animals, especially insects - do you know how many of them there are? If God was starting all over how did he “kill” the sea creatures since they were already in the water?
Hi dizzy_dave…incidentally I really loved your signature…how beautiful and so very thought provoking…thank you! … and Mother Teresa too…

To business…its Genesis Chapter 6 that twists me up which reminds me I must get on to my Scripture Scholar and ask him about Chapter 6…

I have sometimes wondered with the story of Noah and taking it in context if perhaps it was a flood of evil over the world…from which Noah and the animals of course were preserved until God brought the world back to square one as it were…just wondered with all the controversy about if there was actually a flood that ever covered the known world…and another point for my scripture scholar when I can find him…

Barb
 
Hi all!

About a “literal reading” of the Tanakh. I don’t think that any two people could agree on a “literal reading” of, say, Genesis (certainly mine, as an orthodox Jew and based on the original Hebrew, will probably differ in many particulars from that of a fundamentalist Protestant, based on the KJV); such a thing is inherently subjective and based on our own idiosyncrasies, psychological/emotional/spiritual baggage and personal it-seems-to-me’s. Thus, we should be very leery of basing beliefs and/or arguments on a “literal reading” of the scriptures. Those who do insist on a strict, narrow, “literal” interpretation of this or that section of scripture are, I believe, forcing it into a literary and spiritual strait-jacket entirely of their own devising that does no justice to the scriptures…

So, that being said, how do I, as an orthodox Jew, view the Torah? Well, of course, I believe that it (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) is the literal word of God as He revealed it to Moses our Teacher. We believe that the Torah can be understood/appreciated/interpreted on any of four general levels ranging from that which is most in accord with a close reading of the (original Hebrew!!!) text, to the metaphorical, to the most rarefied and esoteric (the grasp of which is waaay beyond most of us). Who is to say which chapter and verse of Genesis is to be best understood or appreciated on which level? Moreover, our Sages say that the Torah is like a diamond with many facets, each with its own brilliance, each offering a different perspective from which to behold the wondrous jewel.

Lastly, I would humbly argue that we are grasping at trees & missing the forest. What is more important, (sterile?) debates over whether Genesis proves/supports or disproves/opposes this or that theory of creation or evolution, or whether the Flood “really happened”, etc., or discussing, studying and seeking to internalize its sublime moral, ethical and spiritual truths (such as befit the word of God)?

On the other hand…

Genesis 7:6 tells us that:
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Genesis 8:14-16 tell us that:
And it came to pass in the six hundred and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth; and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and behold, the face of the ground was dried. And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dry. And God spoke unto Noah, saying: ‘Go forth from the ark, you, and your wife, and your sons, and your sons’ wives with you.
Thus, Noah & family were in the ark for just over one year.

Genesis 9:28-29 tells us that:
And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years; and he died.
Something doesn’t jibe. Noah was 600 when the flood started. He was in the ark for (just over) one year. He lived 350 years after the flood & died at the ripe old age of 950. What happened to the year he was in the ark? One of my rabbis writes that:
The arithmetic of Noah’s years (600 before + 350 after = 950) seems not to take into account the year of the Flood. There is a good case to be made for not considering the duration of the Flood in calculations of the chronology of the world. We might look at the Flood as a period of “suspended animation” - laws of nature were not in effect; perhaps time as we know it cannot apply to that interval. The animals in the ark did not function in their normal ways.
This could explain a lot; interesting, no?

Be well!

ssv 👋
 
It coidl just be that his age was roudned off… I mena its pretty conveneint that their all roudn numbers dotn you think???

He may have died, say, at age 947, and htey roudned ff to 950… it need not be precice to be accurate.
 
Maybe the time of ‘the Flood’ was like 'the year 0’back then.
 
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stillsmallvoice:
Lastly, I would humbly argue that we are grasping at trees & missing the forest. What is more important, (sterile?) debates over whether Genesis proves/supports or disproves/opposes this or that theory of creation or evolution, or whether the Flood “really happened”, etc., or discussing, studying and seeking to internalize its sublime moral, ethical and spiritual truths (such as befit the word of God)?
I would agree, often we can run the risk of getting lost in the details and not see the wood for the trees. it would drive you nuts. For me when i read the account of the flood, i don’t think about how Noah got all the animals in (or even who had to clean up after them :eek: ) Rather I ask what does this tell us about God and what does it say to me in the here and now. its one of the reasons why i love Rainbows. 🙂

Just a point of interest: The story of the flood is not unigue to the bible, many cultures had a story of a flood. Gilagamesh in particular comes to mind. it suggests to some Scholars that there may have being a very large flood in the region, that would have felt to the inhabitants, like the whole world had being covered in water. So perhaps to use another cliché “there is no smoke without a fire”
 
Hi Vivemus!

I heard a story that Karl Barth once gave a lecture on Genesis 3 at the University of Chicago. When it came time for the question and answer portion, a student spoke up and said “Dr. Barth, you don’t really believe snakes could talk do you?” Barth replied, “I could care less whether or not snakes could talk. What I’m interested in is what the snake said.”

BRAVO FOR DR. BARTH!!!

WELL SAID!!!


Be well!

ssv 👋
 
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dizzy_dave:
I just started to read the bible again, I thought I’d start at the beginning (Genesis). Genesis 8, ok Noah and the family build an ark and take animals, birds, etc. since the ark had windows in it how did they keep flies inside?, wouldn’t the roof of the ark be absolutly covered with birds since they would drowned otherwise? How did they gather up all these animals, especially insects - do you know how many of them there are? If God was starting all over how did he “kill” the sea creatures since they were already in the water?
I just wanted to say,i love your signature,by mother teresa,i have never heard that quote before,its the best i have heard in a long time!
 
my I suggest a very good, short book to read before embarking on a cover to cover reading of the Bible: Making Sense out of Scripture: Reading the Bible as the First Christians Did by Mark Shea, helps avoid some of the problems such as you describe.
 
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puzzleannie:
my I suggest a very good, short book to read before embarking on a cover to cover reading of the Bible: Making Sense out of Scripture: Reading the Bible as the First Christians Did by Mark Shea, helps avoid some of the problems such as you describe.
…another excellent little book is Thomas Merton’s “On Opening T he Bible”…also if you go to:

users.bigpond.com/mbfallon/

This is the website of Father Michael Fallon (also some of his homilies). Father Michael is an MSC (Missionary of The Sacred Hea rt) and a scripture scholar. He is a South Australian and is a published author on scripture of considerable renown in South Australia. You can email Father Michael and he will answer.

Another avenue is to ring your local Diocesan Office and locate a scripture scholar that one can converse with on the phone. I know one here in South Australia and he is one of my most valued resources on Scripture.

Barb
 
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BarbaraTherese:
…another excellent little book is Thomas Merton’s “On Opening T he Bible”…also if you go to:

users.bigpond.com/mbfallon/

This is the website of Father Michael Fallon (also some of his homilies). Father Michael is an MSC (Missionary of The Sacred Hea rt) and a scripture scholar. He is a South Australian and is a published author on scripture of considerable renown in South Australia. You can email Father Michael and he will answer.

Another avenue is to ring your local Diocesan Office and locate a scripture scholar that one can converse with on the phone. I know one here in South Australia and he is one of my most valued resources on Scripture.

Barb
Just ducked over to Father Michae’s website:

users.bigpond.com/mbfallon/

to check out if anything new was on it…see he has an article there on Genesis l - 11…just going back now to have a read myself…

Regards Barb
 
I always wondered, assuming that the flood was regional, that Noah brought two of each animal that he would need to start up a new livelihood once the waters receded.

For instance, two cows, two pigs, two chickens, two horses, etc…

NotWorthy
 
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BarbaraTherese:
Just ducked over to Father Michae’s website:

users.bigpond.com/mbfallon/

to check out if anything new was on it…see he has an article there on Genesis l - 11…just going back now to have a read myself…

Regards Barb
…started to read it…got interesting if somewhat complex, so copied cut and pasted it into Word and then printed…sat back and had a slow read very informative I found it anyway…cleared up my concerns on Chapter 6 as well as other useful info…

Barb
 
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NotWorthy:
I always wondered, assuming that the flood was regional, that Noah brought two of each animal that he would need to start up a new livelihood once the waters receded.
starting up a new livelihood? seems he survived the ultimate in down-sizing
 
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puzzleannie:
starting up a new livelihood? seems he survived the ultimate in down-sizing
Yeah, but he’s got to provide food and crops for his family. OK, I admit, it’s not well thought out. But if you look at all my other posts, you can probably say the same for all of them.🙂

NotWorthy
 
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stillsmallvoice:
Hi Vivemus!

I heard a story that Karl Barth once gave a lecture on Genesis 3 at the University of Chicago. When it came time for the question and answer portion, a student spoke up and said “Dr. Barth, you don’t really believe snakes could talk do you?” Barth replied, “I could care less whether or not snakes could talk. What I’m interested in is what the snake said.”

BRAVO FOR DR. BARTH!!!

WELL SAID!!!


Be well!

ssv 👋

Nicely put; TY for quoting that 👍 - the thing said is all too often drowned out by worries about the historical reality of such passages. :rolleyes: In the process, the message evaporates​

 
Dear Dizzy,

I know what you mean. I want to know what they ate, how they killed all that time in the ark, how they went to the bathroom, and all that. What did they feed the animals for all that time, too? How did they put up with the smell, for even a day? What did Noah say to the kids who must have been asking 100 times day, are we there yet? How did they get email or anything?
 
Vivemus said:
]
Just a point of interest: The story of the flood is not unigue to the bible, many cultures had a story of a flood. Gilagamesh in particular comes to mind. it suggests to some Scholars that there may have being a very large flood in the region, that would have felt to the inhabitants, like the whole world had being covered in water. So perhaps to use another cliché “there is no smoke without a fire”

I would recommend a book titled “Noah’s Flood” it may still be available on Amazon.com. It was written by a couple of scientists who worked on a reserach ship, the Global Challenger I seem to recall. In any case they took core samples of the sea beds beneath the Med and the Black Seas. Evidence was that the bowl of the Med was once a desert like region that was flooded when a rock wall, only Gibralter is left, collapsed and let water from the Atlantic flow in. Similarly there was a land bridge across the Bosporous that broke down and allowed water from the Med to flow into a freshwater lake that is now the Black Sea. The flooding was very rapid and the lake rose hundreds of feet to form the saline Black Sea. The peoples who have a flood story in their epic literature were peoples who had lived on the land sorrounding the original lake. They scattered with the flood and formed new homes to the East,West and North of the new sea. All this took place in pre-history about ten or twelve thousand years ago. This does not destroy the usefulness of the Bible as a source of knowledge necessary to our salvation, but does point up the need to be aware that some history is reliable and some is not. It is the knowledge of God taught that counts as innerrant not the form of the lesson.
 
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