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DonLeon
Guest
Yes, and it’s usually the un-churched who fall prey to the erroneous and un-biblical state-
ments and promises made by these pseudo-religious cults.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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ments and promises made by these pseudo-religious cults.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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dianaiad
Guest
“pseudo-religious?” It’s not enough to deny any form of Christianity to those who disagree with you on some point of doctrine; you hold to yourself the term ‘religion,’ as well?Yes, and it’s usually the un-churched who fall prey to the erroneous and un-biblical state-
ments and promises made by these pseudo-religious cults.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
Are you going to decide that you, and those who agree with you, are the only people who have any beliefs at all? All of humanity but you have, merely, 'pseudo-beliefs," perhaps?
God may make Himself available to you insofar as you understand Him, but you cannot completely understand Who He is, can you? If you could, you would be as He is; omniscient, perhaps omnipotent.
Could it be possible that other people have truths that you do not have? Are you so convinced that you have everything, know all things, have such a complete understanding of Deity that you can so blithely dismiss other beliefs and people as being so completely beneath you, so utterly false in all they understand and believe?
I find this attitude to be more common than it should be. Here a group of you are, getting all offended because we claim that there was a ‘great apostasy’ that eventually required the restoration of the priesthood. That is an insult past bearing, evidently…but WE do not think that y’all have lost all truth, all faith, or are ‘pseudo-religious’ or ‘not Christian.’ We understand that those who believe in Christ and have faith in Him are Christians–and beloved by Him, even if they believe different things about Him than we do.
We do not call you "un-Christian,’ or ‘pseudo-religious.’ But you do that with us, and don’t see the sad and tragic irony of it.
And then you leave such a post as this with “Pax Domini.”
That’s like saying “Go to hell, you and the horse you rode in on…and by the way, God’s peace be with you.”
That’s just wrong, y’know?
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SkinnyJay
Guest
Be careful Diana…
I am sure many people on this site can provide numerous quotes from LDS historians, apostles, scripture, the founder all pronouncing the wickedness of Catholicism.
Sort of like saying, “Go to hell, you and the horse you rode in on…” and from the other side of your mouth saying, “Gods’ peace be with you.”
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DorianGregorian
Guest
I generally don’t read fiction, the book of mormon falls into that category.
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dianaiad
Guest
Actually, no. They can’t.
Nor can they find any quotes from LDS leaders that can be twisted that way that are less than a hundred years old.
C
Christian55
Guest
Mormon “prophet” Joesph Smith proclaimed, "ninety-nine out of every hundred professing religious ministers are false teachers, having no authority, while they pretend to hold the keys of God’s kingdom on earth. . ".
AND, “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret.”
The God of Christianity is not an “exalted man.”
One must wonder what the LDS are trying to accomplish on these Forums.
**Journal of Discourses (JD)
JD 6:2 – p.3, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844
My first object is to find out the character of the only wise and true God, and what kind of being he is; and if I am so fortunate as to be the man to comprehend God, and explain or convey the principles to your hearts, so that the Spirit seals them upon you, then let every man and woman henceforth sit in silence, put their hands on their mouths, and never lift their hands or voices or say anything against the man of God or the servants of God again.** But if I fail to do it, it becomes my duty to renounce all further pretensions to revelations, inspirations, or to be a Prophet; and I should be like the rest of the world – a false teacher, be hailed as a friend, and no man would seek my life. But if all religious teachers were honest enough to renounce their pretensions to godliness, when their ignorance of the knowledge of God is made manifest, they will all be as badly off as I am, at any rate; and you might just as well take the lives of other false teachers as that of mine, if I am false. . . .
JD 6:3, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844
But meddle not with any man for his religion; and all governments ought to permit every man to enjoy his religion unmolested. No man is authorized to take away life in consequence of difference of religion, which all laws and governments ought to tolerate and protect, right or wrong. Every man has a natural and, in our country, a constitutional right to be a false prophet as well as a true prophet. If I show, verily, that I have the truth of God, and show that ninety-nine out of every hundred professing religious ministers are false teachers, having no authority, while they pretend to hold the keys of God’s kingdom on earth, and was to kill them because they are false teachers, it would deluge the whole world with blood.
I will prove that the world is wrong, by showing what God is.** I am going to inquire after God; for I want you all to know him and to be familiar with him; and if I can bring you to a knowledge of him, all persecutions against me ought to cease. You will then know that I am his servant; for I speak as one having authority.
**
I will go back to the beginning, before the world was, to show what kind of being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man.
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. If the vail was rent to-day, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible, --I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form –like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.
In order to understand the subject of the dead, for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; **for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see.
**
These are incomprehensible ideas to some; but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease for ever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon.) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, “As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power”–to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner, to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.
**JD 6:4, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844
Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all the Gods have done before you, - **namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one, - from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in every lasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me.
AND, “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret.”
The God of Christianity is not an “exalted man.”
One must wonder what the LDS are trying to accomplish on these Forums.
**Journal of Discourses (JD)
JD 6:2 – p.3, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844
My first object is to find out the character of the only wise and true God, and what kind of being he is; and if I am so fortunate as to be the man to comprehend God, and explain or convey the principles to your hearts, so that the Spirit seals them upon you, then let every man and woman henceforth sit in silence, put their hands on their mouths, and never lift their hands or voices or say anything against the man of God or the servants of God again.** But if I fail to do it, it becomes my duty to renounce all further pretensions to revelations, inspirations, or to be a Prophet; and I should be like the rest of the world – a false teacher, be hailed as a friend, and no man would seek my life. But if all religious teachers were honest enough to renounce their pretensions to godliness, when their ignorance of the knowledge of God is made manifest, they will all be as badly off as I am, at any rate; and you might just as well take the lives of other false teachers as that of mine, if I am false. . . .
JD 6:3, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844
But meddle not with any man for his religion; and all governments ought to permit every man to enjoy his religion unmolested. No man is authorized to take away life in consequence of difference of religion, which all laws and governments ought to tolerate and protect, right or wrong. Every man has a natural and, in our country, a constitutional right to be a false prophet as well as a true prophet. If I show, verily, that I have the truth of God, and show that ninety-nine out of every hundred professing religious ministers are false teachers, having no authority, while they pretend to hold the keys of God’s kingdom on earth, and was to kill them because they are false teachers, it would deluge the whole world with blood.
I will prove that the world is wrong, by showing what God is.** I am going to inquire after God; for I want you all to know him and to be familiar with him; and if I can bring you to a knowledge of him, all persecutions against me ought to cease. You will then know that I am his servant; for I speak as one having authority.
**
I will go back to the beginning, before the world was, to show what kind of being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man.
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. If the vail was rent to-day, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible, --I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form –like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.
In order to understand the subject of the dead, for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; **for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see.
**
These are incomprehensible ideas to some; but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease for ever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon.) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, “As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power”–to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner, to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.
**JD 6:4, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844
Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all the Gods have done before you, - **namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one, - from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in every lasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me.
C
Christian55
Guest
So, anything written more than 100 years ago doesn’t count in Mormonism?
Mormon founder and “prophet” Joesph Smith proclaimed, "ninety-nine out of every hundred professing religious ministers are false teachers, having no authority, while they pretend to hold the keys of God’s kingdom on earth. . ".
That’s an insult to all of Christendom. And you wonder why you are not well received.
R
ricko
Guest
Claim is correct. Anyone can make a claim about anything but can they back it up with evidence? The Mormons quote passages but those quotes refer to an apostasy in the “latter days” or “end times”. The first century is certainly not the end times. Then we have a total lack of any historical evidence. Not one item documents an apostasy. The writings of the Church Fathers including the bible mention nothing about an apostasy in progress, only the one toward the end of the world. The Reformation is documented as we well know but not the “Great Apostasy” The bible verses that Mormons like to use to show problems in the early church are nothing more than “growing pains” of Jews converting over to Christianity. Of course there would be disagreements and all of them were taken care of as in Acts 15.
According to Exodus 28:30, the high priest had what was called the “Urim and the Thummim” on the breastplate of his vestments, whereby he would bear the sins of the people of Israel when he went before the Lord in the temple. Through this gift of God the high priest would also hear the word of God and proclaim divine oracles from God.
Even during such a corrupt time as we find in the book of Judges, we see this gift in operation in Israel. This was a time characterized by these words from Judges 17:6: " . . . every man did what was right in his own eyes." It was a time of rebellion and disobedience; yet, even then the ministry of the high priest and the gift of “the Urim and the Thummim” was alive and functioning.
According to Matthew 18:15-18, Jesus gave us a definitive commandment. He said:
If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you . . . If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mormons and Catholics agree that Christ was directing the faithful to obey the Church that he established and that we can be confident about doing so because the true Church to which Jesus was leading us would never steer us away from God. The question is: To what Church is he referring? Mormons say it is the LDS “church.” Catholics say it is the Catholic Church. How do we know which is true?
One way to know is to ask another simple question: What if you were living in, let’s say, 1785, and you were to read this very passage from Matthew. You know that Jesus would never lead you to a “church” with no one who could speak for him. In obedience to Jesus, where would you go? The LDS did not exist yet. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. He would never lead us astray or command us to follow error. If the true church did not exist on this earth for 1,800 years, then Jesus misguided millions into obeying error-filled churches with no apostolic authority. That would be unthinkable.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
“The **pseudo-Christian **world has stumbled over the meaning of this simple text, and not a few commentators have tried to explain away its true applicability to all mankind of the Savior’s teachings.” (McKay, David O., “The Purpose of Temples”, Ensign Magazine, January 1972)
David O.McKay was the Mormon president/prophet from 1951-1970.
David O.McKay was the Mormon president/prophet from 1951-1970.
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SkinnyJay
Guest
Looks like they can.
I will echo Christian55, So writings older then 100years do not count? Beyond reproach? They didn’t mean what we think they meant when they said that?
S
SkinnyJay
Guest
“…the Book of Mormon remains secure, unchanged and unchangeable, …But with the Bible it was not and is not so…it was once in the sole and exclusive care and custody of an abominable organization (Christianity), founded by the devil himself, likened prophetically unto a great whore, whose great aim and purpose was to destroy the souls of men in the name of religion. In these hands it ceased to be the book it once was.”
- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie (July 29, 1915 – April 19, 1985), The Joseph Smith Translation, pp. 12, 13
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SkinnyJay
Guest
I find it interesting that Nephi is writing about mother of all abominations and the wrath of God waiting for it when Catholicism, starting with the death of Jesus in Peter, was well after Lehi’s family left the old world. How could Nephi write about something not even in existence yet? Well through prophecy of course. We are expected to believe that JS translated the words of Nephi who wrote of churches not in existence (through prophecy).
So, which is more likely? Nephi recorded prophecy about God’s feelings about the Catholic church hundreds of years before it even existed and Smith dutifully translated it from an unknown language, or perhaps Smith had an overactive imagination?
So, which is more likely? Nephi recorded prophecy about God’s feelings about the Catholic church hundreds of years before it even existed and Smith dutifully translated it from an unknown language, or perhaps Smith had an overactive imagination?
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zaffiroborant
Guest
How will the offensive term be justified I wonder???
Maybe straight out denial, like when the apostles make up others doctrine and then tear it down???
Z
zerinus
Guest
That is not true. The signs of the Apostasy are clearer than that, both in the Bible and in ecclesiastical history.
Actually, you have misunderstood Judges 17:6 (see also Judges 21:25). What that means is that they were not subject to the rule of kings in those days; they were politically free. It is only when they desired a king to rule over them (contrary to the will of God), that they became subject to the rule of kings, and ceased to be a free people.
Thank you, those are thoughtful questions. The churches (and especially the Catholic Church) are not entirely false. We don’t claim that they are, or have been. During the time that you are referring to, before the establishment of the LDS Church, the churches were (and still are) true to the extent that they were (and still are) able to instill saving faith in Christ in their adherents. They have been able to do that (up to a point), and to that extent they are (and have been) God’s true Church. But with the organization of the LDS Church God has effectively ended their mandate. It is when they refuse to acknowledge that Restoration, and actively oppose it, that they begin to become transgressors. In the D&C 22:1 the Lord has said: “Behold, I say unto you that all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing; and this is a new and an everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning”. The old churches have done a lot of good in the past, and in many instances still continue to do so today. But with the advent of the Restoration they have lost their mandate; and if they want to be honest with themselves and the Lord they should be willing to acknowledge that, or they will gradually dwindle into oblivion.
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zerinus
Guest
Compared to Mormonism they are “pseudo-Christians”. Mormonism is the true, pure, pristine form of Christianity.How will the offensive term be justified I wonder???
Maybe straight out denial, like when the apostles make up others doctrine and then tear it down???
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dzheremi
Guest
Right. Today is the feast day of St. Jacob of Nisibis, among others, but nowhere on the calendar can I find mention of it being Opposite Day. Try again, Zerinus. Or better yet, don’t.
Today is the feast day of St. Jacob of Nisibis, among others, but nowhere on the calendar can I find mention of it being Opposite Day. Try again, Zerinus. Or better yet, don’t.
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DonLeon
Guest
I reiterate my statement. Outside of the bible there is no truth. all truth has been revealed and given us by Jesus Christ. Those that say that there are other truths, apart from those revealed, are false teachers. To try to prove otherwise is an exercise in futility.
As for the “Great Apostacy”, it has yet to be proven. This also is another futile exercise because there never was a “great Apostacy”. I am sorry if you feel insulted, but facts are facts, whether you acknowledge them or not. As Bishop Sheen once said “A
lie is still a lie even if everyone believes it, and the truth is still the truth even if no one believes it.”
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
A
Answersplease
Guest
Yes, and it’s usually the un-churched who fall prey to the erroneous and un-biblical state-
ments and promises made by these pseudo-religious cults.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
Z
Zundrah
Guest
Zerius I wasn’t being a meanie to you! LOL, I come and watch this thread everyday and read it up and it just seems to have gone around and around and I can’t keep up with it… but then again I’m not catholic so what can I protest against your convanent of authority which you mormons cliam to have, as the only church that has it? You say that you are the one true church right? So… does that mean that by baptism was not actually a real baptism since my chruch has no authority?
Please tell me…XXX ZUNDRAH XXX
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zerinus
Guest
Yes, that is what I mean!Zerius I wasn’t being a meanie to you! LOL, I come and watch this thread everyday and read it up and it just seems to have gone around and around and I can’t keep up with it… but then again I’m not catholic so what can I protest against your convanent of authority which you mormons cliam to have, as the only church that has it? You say that you are the one true church right? So… does that mean that by baptism was not actually a real baptism since my chruch has no authority?
Baptism is a sacrament, and like all sacraments it has to be performed by one having real authority from God. As Paul said, “no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron” (Hebrews 5:4). Jesus didn’t go to just anybody to be baptized, but to John, who had proper authority from God (see Matthew 12:25). And so must be everyone else who is baptized into the kingdom of God. Earthly kingdoms have legal administers; what makes you think the kingdom of God should be any different?
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