The Book of Mormon... have you read it?

[shelby2014]

You need to know about Oliver. Before he came back to the church he was experiencing financial difficulties. During that time he left the church and began to experience money problems, he could have made some money with a book about the con of mormonism. Oliver who was one of the witnesses and claimed the restoration of the priesthood through a visitation of heavenly beings that gave him and Joseph Smith the priesthood keys would have been a great person to expose the con, if it were a con. He was the second elder of the lds church.

Oliver was there from almost the beginning with Joseph Smith.

He was having financial difficulties and came back to the church? Doesn’t that appear that he came back to the church he helped found in order to receive financial aid and security for himself and his family from people who would inevitably make him their leader?

I find it odd that he was living a lie by pretending to accept polygamy (which you say was a huge stumbling block for him, and so I doubt he ever really got over it) and yet you are so quick to believe his deathbed confession?

It does sound like he wanted his wife and kids looked after by the Mormons, since he had little other choice.

 

[lax16]

not sure, but that doesn;t matter. If the whole first vision and all is a fraud, Oliver is as guilty as anyone of all that happened after that.

Yes, but I didn’t know if there were people who were still owed money from then? Could they sue or was it too late? Maybe OC wasn’t even involved…?

Not a subject I have read up on yet.

I have never thought about what would happen to a person who was a church leader that was convicted of fraud. Interesting…

 

[barnesms]

He was having financial difficulties and came back to the church? Doesn’t that appear that he came back to the church he helped found in order to receive financial aid and security for himself and his family from people who would inevitably make him their leader?

I find it odd that he was living a lie by pretending to accept polygamy (which you say was a huge stumbling block for him, and so I doubt he ever really got over it) and yet you are so quick to believe his deathbed confession?

It does sound like he wanted his wife and kids looked after by the Mormons, since he had little other choice.

You are using quite a bit of creativity. The LDS Church was quite small at this time and it did not have the capacity to provide “financial aid” for himself and his family. There was no possibility of such a thing. The Church did not have the funds to take care of anyone, much less Oliver Cowdery in Missouri. Do you every use sources or do you just create ideas. This is the same type of misinformation that Hitler used against the Jews and what many Americans did against the Catholics. It is dishonest.

There was no choice to be taken care of by the Church of Jesus Christ other than simple Christian acts of kindness. However, the Church itself was having their hand’s full of just providing for the influx of saints from Europe as the Church continued to grow.

 

[barnesms]

Yes, but I didn’t know if there were people who were still owed money from then? Could they sue or was it too late? Maybe OC wasn’t even involved…?

Not a subject I have read up on yet.

I have never thought about what would happen to a person who was a church leader that was convicted of fraud. Interesting…

Lax, it is interesting that you bring up this question about a church leader being convicted of fraud. Can you share some of your knowledge about the number of times the Vatican Bank has had issues with money laundering, fraud, etc. What happened to those leaders associated with the VB? It would be interesting as you say, please share. Surely you know more about that topic than the LDS Church.

Fellow Christians, please remember that the manner in which you judge others will be the same manner in which you will be judged. If you use one standard for the LDS Church; use that same standard for the Catholic Church. There are over 15,000 hits on Google for the words: “Vatican Bank, fraud”.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Lax, it is interesting that you bring up this question about a church leader being convicted of fraud. Can you share some of your knowledge about the number of times the Vatican Bank has had issues with money laundering, fraud, etc. What happened to those leaders associated with the VB? It would be interesting as you say, please share. Surely you know more about that topic than the LDS Church.

Fellow Christians, please remember that the manner in which you judge others will be the same manner in which you will be judged. If you use one standard for the LDS Church; use that same standard for the Catholic Church. There are over 15,000 hits on Google for the words: “Vatican Bank, fraud”.

The Vatican Bank is a far cry from the founders of the LDS Church. That was simply a deflection of the point.

You could convict everyone in the bank and it would mean nothing. If you convicted Joseph and Oliver, it would have been the end of the LDS Church. That is why Oliver did not come clean

 

[evanfaust]

Can you, for a minute, just close your eyes and imagine the horrible persecution his family would have had to endure if he had come clean? His estate could have been sued and any belongings his family had would have been lost. What kind of man would want his family to go thru that?

And that does not even include how his friends would have been prosecuted and sued.

Would you want your friends to go through that?

I certainly wouldn’t. And I doubt seriously Oliver would have wanted that.

SirThomasMore,

Close your eyes and let’s think for a moment. First of all you are assuming his family would be persecuted. Persecution was something he and his family endured while he was LDS for many years. They had a good taste of persecution. The great majority of Mormons was in Utah, and you are saying his family would be legally persecuted because of his own action? His family would legally have to pay for his own mistakes?. Even if his family and friends were to be persecuted, there are some fundamental flaws in your logic.

First you are assuming he was a dishonest man and decided to continue to be dishonest even at the time of his encounter with God. You are saying that he would rather lose his soul and allow many followers, including his own family to lose their soul just so his friends and family would not be persecuted in this such smal period of our existence in all eternity? He was very familiar with persecution and used to it. Is that what I am hearing from you? He could have written a letter to be opened 10, 50 or 100 years later and denounced all the “fraud from Mormonism”. But instead, we see no traces that he ever denied his testimony to anyone, he did not even confide that “dark secret” to any of his family member. We are talking about the same man who was a good citizen in a society, a school teacher, a good lawyer, a great family man and a God fearing Christian. A man with a distinguished reputation for his integrity! And yet, he could not have come to his senses about all the “fraud” he was involved in.

How could he be at peace at death time having to carry this heavy load? Why would his friend state that he was the happiest man he ever saw when he was dying? Could a fraudulent person of this magnitude be so happy when dying? Very unlikely!

Why then would he go back to the Mormon Church? He did not have to! David Whitmer did not go back to the Mormon Church. But, Oliver Cowdery went back, was re-baptized and was willing to visit Salt Lake City where Brigham Young was, but he was frail and died before. Common sense tells me that he believe in Mormonism and wanted to be part of it before his death. That may be why he felt so happy at time of death!

Second, you are giving too much credit to Joseph Smith! How could Joseph have selected three witnesses for the Book of Mormon knowing in advance they would never deny their testimony? He was so good that he even selected eight more witnesses and none of them retracted their testimony. Darn Smith! How was he able to pull this off? The man must have been a genius in psychology to be able to pull off something like this!

Joseph was so confident that he did not hesitate to excommunicate the three witnesses knowing that they would be angry at him and still would not tell the “whole truth” about their lies! Wau, he was so confident of his own abilities! Amazing for just a human being! Is that what you are saying here? You are saying Joseph invented the Book of Mormon, all the visions, all the miracles and all the power he had and nobody came forward to say they witnessed a fraud! Sorry, but that is simply impossible! That is why I don’t buy your argument!

 

[evanfaust]

The Vatican Bank is a far cry from the founders of the LDS Church. That was simply a deflection of the point.

You could convict everyone in the bank and it would mean nothing. If you convicted Joseph and Oliver, it would have been the end of the LDS Church. That is why Oliver did not come clean

Are you sure? Convicting someone would end a religious movement? Joseph endured great persecution, incarceration many times, calumny, defections of many leaders, bank failure and so forth…and yet, he was able to keep the church together and very alive! What kind of force was behind all this? How about just admitting what Mormons claim…whichh is that this movement was not initiated by Joseph, but by God Himself!

I don’t think you are sincerely investigating what went on the bank failure initiated by the Saints in Kirtland. Please see the timeline and details in the link provided:

Timeline of KSS (Kirtland Safety Society)

27 March 1836
Kirtland Temple dedication

August 1836
Oliver Cowdery investigates the production of bank notes, so consideration of a bank underway by this date.

2 November 1836
The Kirtland Safety Society Bank’s constitution is drafted. Sidney Rigdon made president; Joseph Smith made cashier.

1 January 1837
Oliver Cowdery arrives with printing plates for bank notes; Orson Hyde reports that the state legislature will not grant them a charter. Their inability to receive a charter leads them to form a joint-stock company, the Kirtland Safety Society Anti-Banking Company (KSS).

2 January 1837
KSS opens for business.

6 January 1837
Notes from the KSS begin circulating

23 January 1837
The KSS announces it can redeem notes with land, but was unable to redeem its notes in specie (gold)

1 February 1837
KSS notes circulating at only 12.5 cents per dollar face value

10 February 1837
A second attempt is made to get a bank charter; some non-Mormons are part of this application, including Joseph Smith’s lawyer and Samuel Medary, a future governor of two states.[1]

April 1837
Joseph Smith twice warns the Saints that the KSS will fail if the members do not accept the notes as payment for goods and services

May 1837
All banks in Ohio suspend specie payment as a banking panic spreads west from New York.

8 June 1837
Joseph Smith resigns from KSS, as he is convinced the bank is not viable

June 1837
LDS newspaper Messenger and Advocate reports that Kirtland land prices have increased 800% during the past year alone.[2]

July 1837
Extant note for $100 with Warren Parrish’s signature.

August 1837
Joseph Smith denounces the new leadership of the KSS, since Parrish, at least, was continuing to issue new scrip even though the bank was failing.

27 September 1837
Joseph and Sidney Rigdon go to visit Missouri; in their absence, the Kirtland Church is rent by strife and apostasy

October 1837
Joseph and Sidney found guilty at trial of illegal banking and issuing unauthorized bank paper currency (a civil, not criminal offense). They are fined $1,000 each, and appeal.

November 1837
Final failure of the KSS. Joseph is left with debts of $100,000; he has goods and land, but these are unable to be converted into ready cash

22 December 1837
Brigham Young flees Kirtland for Missouri, convinced that his life is in danger from apostates because of his staunch defense of Joseph Smith

12 January 1838
Joseph Smith, having returned to Kirtland, leaves with Sidney Rigdon to escape the risk of prison and mob action

For a more detalied explanation of the bank failure, please read on…

en.fairmormon.org/Kirtland_Safety_Society

 

[SirThomasMore]

Yes. I am sure. Had Oliver admitted it was all a fraud and gotten convicted of the fraud, it would have been the end of the Church, and his life.

 

[evanfaust]

Yes. I am sure. Had Oliver admitted it was all a fraud and gotten convicted of the fraud, it would have been the end of the Church, and his life.

How about Sidney Ridgon? Why didn’t he admitt all the fraud? How about David Whitmer? Why didn’t he admitt all the fraud? How about Martin Harris? Why didn’t he admitt all the fraud?

Just remember, all these men saw angels and witnessed heavenly manifestations of the highest magnitude. Sidney Ridgon for example was with Joseph during the revelation of the Kingdoms of glory and they saw Moses, Elijah and other celestial messengers, even Jesus Christ and yet he never denied any of that. Doesn’t that strike you?

 

[Answersplease]

How about Sidney Ridgon? Why didn’t he admitt all the fraud? How about David Whitmer? Why didn’t he admitt all the fraud? How about Martin Harris? Why didn’t he admitt all the fraud?

Just remember, all these men saw angels and witnessed heavenly manifestations of the highest magnitude. Sidney Ridgon for example was with Joseph during the revelation of the Kingdoms of glory and they saw Moses, Elijah and other celestial messengers, even Jesus Christ and yet he never denied any of that. Doesn’t that strike you?

Answersplease:

i4m.com/think/history/sell_BOM_copyright.htm

(Red color, underlining, and use of bold type added to highlight the original text.)

…
"Joseph looked into the hat in which he placed the stone, and received a revelation that some of the brethren should go to Toronto, Canada, and that they would sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon. Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery went to Toronto on this mission, but they failed entirely to sell the copyright, returning without any money.
…
Joseph…enquired of the Lord about it, and behold the following revelation came through the stone: “Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of men: and some revelations are of the devil.”

…
…

• David Witmer, AN ADDRESS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN CHRIST, 1887

 

[SirThomasMore]

How about Sidney Ridgon? Why didn’t he admitt all the fraud? How about David Whitmer? Why didn’t he admitt all the fraud? How about Martin Harris? Why didn’t he admitt all the fraud?

Just remember, all these men saw angels and witnessed heavenly manifestations of the highest magnitude. Sidney Ridgon for example was with Joseph during the revelation of the Kingdoms of glory and they saw Moses, Elijah and other celestial messengers, even Jesus Christ and yet he never denied any of that. Doesn’t that strike you?

Because they all would have faced criminal prosecution and lawsuits for millions of dollars

 

[evanfaust]

Joseph looked into the hat in which he placed the stone, and received a revelation that some of the brethren should go to Toronto, Canada, and that they would sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon. Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery went to Toronto on this mission, but they failed entirely to sell the copyright, returning without any money.
…
Joseph…enquired of the Lord about it, and behold the following revelation came through the stone: “Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of men: and some revelations are of the devil.”…
…

• David Witmer, AN ADDRESS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN CHRIST, 1887

My question was:

How about Sidney Ridgon? Why didn’t he admit all the fraud? How about David Whitmer? Why didn’t he admit all the fraud? How about Martin Harris? Why didn’t he admit all the fraud?

Just remember, all these men saw angels and witnessed heavenly manifestations of the highest magnitude. Sidney Rigdon for example was with Joseph during the revelation of the Kingdoms of glory and they saw Moses, Elijah and other celestial messengers, even Jesus Christ and yet he never denied any of that. Doesn’t that strike you?

These are two different things. These men are actual witness to visions and celestial manifestations. They lived through these manifestations. These are not prophecies. These are real encounters!

So, you are addressing a complete different issue here! But to respond your question about prophecies…yes, Joseph was right when he said that. It makes sense, does it not? What he said in reality is scripture in the Old Testament…Please read Deut 18:20-22

“…How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously…”

The Deuteronomy passage does not say that a man is a false prophet because his prophecy failed, only that the failed prophecy is false. This being the case, it is incorrect to conclude, as most critics do, that one false prophecy (even if some true prophecies are given) makes Joseph Smith a false prophet. The danger in so defining the Deuteronomy passage lies in the fact that there is a tendency on the part of non-believers to “explain away” the prophecy, while believers seek ways to defend it.

fairlds.org/Bible/Nature_of_Prophets_and_Prophecy.html

 

[evanfaust]

Because they all would have faced criminal prosecution and lawsuits for millions of dollars

That Joseph Smith just proves to be so smart again! He chose the right people to associate with him! Even after being excomunicated they still kept “that well hidden fraudulent secret” and took it to their graves. Amazing guy he was! Somehow he was able to silence all the witnesses! eheh.

 

[evanfaust]

Yes. I am sure. Had Oliver admitted it was all a fraud and gotten convicted of the fraud, it would have been the end of the Church, and his life.

So, he decided to lose his soul, even at time of death instead of telling the “secret truth” about the “fraud.”

So, for you the guy was not only a liar and con, but also a coward! Anything else for the poor Oliver?

 

[Answersplease]

These men are actual witness to visions and celestial manifestations.

Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

 

[SirThomasMore]

So, he decided to lose his soul, even at time of death instead of telling the “secret truth” about the “fraud.”

So, for you the guy was not only a liar and con, but also a coward! Anything else for the poor Oliver?

You claim Oliver was a coward for protecting his family? That is pretty harsh, Evan

 

[lax16]

You are using quite a bit of creativity. **The LDS Church was ****quite small at this time and it did not have the capacity to provide “financial aid” **for himself and his family. There was no possibility of such a thing. The Church did not have the funds to take care of anyone, much less Oliver Cowdery in Missouri. Do you every use sources or do you just create ideas. This is the same type of misinformation that Hitler used against the Jews and what many Americans did against the Catholics. It is dishonest.

There was no choice to be taken care of by the Church of Jesus Christ other than simple Christian acts of kindness. However, the Church itself was having their hand’s full of just providing for the influx of saints from Europe as the Church continued to grow.

barnesms - There were 60,000 Mormons in 1850. Is that small?

What type of misinformation “is the same that Hitler used…and what many Americans did?” Please be specific.

 

[dianaiad]

You claim Oliver was a coward for protecting his family? That is pretty harsh, Evan

Begging the question, sir. You have yet to establish that there was any reason to assume that his family needed protection. They had not had problems previously, and other people who DID write anti-Mormon books and tracts were safe…so what is your reason behind assuming that THIS family, at THIS time, would have been in more danger than any other family in similar circumstances?

 

[SirThomasMore]

Begging the question, sir. You have yet to establish that there was any reason to assume that his family needed protection. They had not had problems previously, and other people who DID write anti-Mormon books and tracts were safe…so what is your reason behind assuming that THIS family, at THIS time, would have been in more danger than any other family in similar circumstances?

One does not have to establish the obvious. Had Oliver come clean, his family would have been hated by the Mormons AND haunted by the legal system. There is no way he would have done that.

 

[lax16]

Begging the question, sir. You have yet to establish that there was any reason to assume that his family needed protection. They had not had problems previously, and other people who DID write anti-Mormon books and tracts were safe…so what is your reason behind assuming that THIS family, at THIS time, would have been in more danger than any other family in similar circumstances?

Diana -

1. You have 60,000 Mormons (from Rachel Bruner About.com Latter-day Saints)
2. You have an “influx of saints from Europe.”
3. You have a temple that was built with the help of tithing money

That could very easily spell trouble for the Mormons if someone on in the inside spilled the beans. In fact, based on the fact that the Mormons were persecuted/killed by mobs they were very well aware of mob mentality, right?

There have been numerous posts describing the horrible treatment the Mormons received due to mob mentality, and now you are saying that a Mormon family would not need protection?

If OC on his deathbed declared it all a hoax, there would have been a riot among Mormons and non-members alike.