The Book of Mormon

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Miriam1947 said:
Thanks for the link. Very interesting reading.

I went to Packham’s website and I see that since he left Mormonism he has become an atheist.

What a shame.
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He self-describes himself as an “apatheist”.
 
Tex-
Here, for your own personal convenience, is a list of points you never answered.
  1. You claim that Joseph Smith was a racist many times throughout your arguments. However, you never explain how he could have been a racist and held such radically abolitionist views. His political views were a part of the reason he was assassinated in Carthage jail.
  2. You claim that the Book of Mormon is racist. However, you never give me any verses to convince me of this. Rather, you gave me 3 Nephi 2:15-16, which I’ve responded to many times now. Also, you never explain why such a racist book would have a verse like this in it: “For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.” -2 Nephi 26:33
  3. You never gave me any racist quotes by Joseph Smith. I did define your perimeters, but I don’t think they were that ridiculous.
Anyway, go ahead. Find me a racist statement that is:
  1. From Joseph Smith
  2. From a reputable and confirmable source
  3. Not taken out of context
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On another note, you never told me how I ever dodged your argument, considering that I responded to it immediately after you offered it to me.
  1. You never got back to me on my request of you to list specific similarities between “Views of the Hebrews” and the BOM. I’ve already admitted that there are some, but I want to address them on a case by case basis, and I don’t want to give give points against myself. You can do this with a quick Google search, there are more than plenty Anti-Mormon websites willing to fill you in.
  2. You never told me how Jeff Lindsay and FAIR have been discredited.
I would like a complete response for each and every one of these points, as well as a similar list of points I never answered. I would be more than happy to respond to such a list. Also, please leave my arguments in their entirety this time.
 
  1. Pervasive racism
The core story of the Book of Mormon is racist. It’s about a family in which two of the sons turned bad. God therefore cursed them with a dark skin. Dark skin, according to the Book of Mormon is a curse from God. There is no way Mormons can deny this fact. And the only way they can distance themselves from it is to denounce the Book of Mormon. But how do they do that when for decades they’ve claimed it’s “the keystone of our religion,” and “the most perfect book”? Some more thoughts to ponder: The following quote: Spencer W. Kimball, General Conference Report 1960, Improvement ERA, December 1960, pages 922-923

“I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today… The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos, five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.”

Why is whiter skin color associated with righteousness? Isn’t that racism? A few more quotes from church leaders:

“Now WE ARE GENEROUS WITH THE NEGRO. WE ARE WILLING that the Negro have the highest kind of education. I WOULD BE WILLING to LET every Negro DRIVE A CADILLAC IF THEY COULD AFFORD IT. I WOULD BE WILLING that they have all the advantages they can get out of life in the world. BUT LET THEM ENJOY THESE THINGS AMONG THEMSELVES.” LDS Apostle Mark E. Petersen, “Race Problems – As They Affect The Church,” Address delivered at Brigham Young University, August 27, 1954, as quoted in Jerald and Sandra Tanner’s book entitled, “The Changing World of Mormonism,” p. 307, emphasis added.

“Those who were LESS VALIANT IN PRE-EXISTENCE and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the NEGROES.” LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527, 1966 edition, emphasis added.

“THE NEGROES ARE NOT EQUAL WITH OTHER RACES where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, …but this inequality is not of man’s origin. IT IS THE LORD’S DOING, is based on his eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the LACK OF SPIRITUAL VALIANCE OF THOSE CONCERNED IN THEIR FIRST ESTATE [the Mormon pre-existence].” LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527 – 528, 1966 edition, emphasis added.

“We’ve always counseled in the Church for our Mexican members to marry Mexicans, our Japanese members to marry Japanese, our Caucasians to marry Caucasians, our Polynesian members to marry Polynesians. The counsel has been wise. You may say again, “Well, I know of exceptions.” I do, too, and they’ve been very successful marriages. I know some of them. You might even say, “I can show you local Church leaders or perhaps even general leaders who have married out of their race.” I say, “Yes–exceptions.” Then I would remind you of that Relief Society woman’s near-scriptural statement, “We’d like to follow the rule first, and then we’ll take care of the exceptions.” LDS Apostle Boyd K. Packer, from the talk “Follow the Rule” given at Brigham Young University, 1/14/77.

“I will remark with regard to slavery, inasmuch as we believe in the Bible, inasmuch as we believe in the ordinances of God, in the priesthood and order and decrees of God, we must believe in slavery. This colored race have been subjected to severe curses, which they have in their families and their classes and in their various capacities brought upon themselves…

“I am a firm believer in slavery…Those servants want to come here with their masters…and they commence to whisper round their views upon the subject, saying ‘Do you think it’s right? I am afraid it is not right’. I know it is right, and there should be a law made to have the slaves serve their master, because they are not capable of ruling themselves…I am firm in the belief that they ought to dwell in servitude…

“When a master has a negro, and uses him well, he is much better off than when he is free. As for masters knocking them down and whipping them and breaking the limbs of their servants, I have as little opinion of that as any person can have, but good wholesome servitude, I know there is nothing better than that.”

(Speech by Brigham Young delivered in joint session of the legislature, Friday, Jan. 23rd, 1852, recorded by Geo. D. Watt, Brigham Young Papers, Historical Dept. of the Church).

“If there never was a prophet or apostle of Jesus Christ spoke it before, I tell you, this people that are commonly called negroes are the children of old Cain. I know they are.”

continued below…
 
“Again to the subject before us: as to the negro men bearing rule, not one of the children of old Cain have one particle of right to bear rule in government affairs from first to last. They have no business there. This privilege was taken from them by their own transgressions, and I cannot help it.

“I am as much opposed to the principle of slavery as any man in the present acceptation or usage of the term – it is abused. I am opposed to abusing that which God has decreed, to take a blessing, and make a curse of it. It is a great blessing to the seed of Adam to have the seed of Cain for servants…”

“Therefore, I will not consent for one moment to have an African dictate (to) me or my brethren with regard to church or state government…No, it is not right. But say some, is there anything of this kind in the constitution the United States has given us? If you will allow me the privilege of telling it right out, it is none of their damned business what we do or say here. What we do, it is for them to sanction, and then for us to say what we like about it. It is written right in the constitution ‘that every free white male inhabitant above the age of 21 years’, and etc…I have given you the true principle and doctrine.

“What the Gentiles are doing, we are consenting to do [he’s referring to the “evil” abolitionist effort going on in the USA at the time]. What we are trying to do today is to make the Negro equal with us in all our privileges. My voice shall be against it all the day long. I shall not consent for one moment.”

(Speech in joint session, Feb. 5, 1852, Brigham Young Papers, Historical Dept. of the Church)

Now I know this is not joe smith sayin gthis but BY saying it is still something. Was he not a prophet? Your church is racist, no getting past it guy. Do some research and see what was said by your prophets and elders. My bad, I forgot. Your not suppossed to read these things because they reveal truths (thats my saying)
 
compuadam said:
  1. You never got back to me on my request of you to list specific similarities between “Views of the Hebrews” and the BOM. I’ve already admitted that there are some, but I want to address them on a case by case basis, and I don’t want to give give points against myself. You can do this with a quick Google search, there are more than plenty Anti-Mormon websites willing to fill you in.
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science has proven the Book of Mormon to be fiction, so how it came about or who Smith stole material from is just academic at this point
 
compuadam said:
Tex-
Here, for your own personal convenience, is a list of points you never answered.
  1. You claim that Joseph Smith was a racist many times throughout your arguments. However, you never explain how he could have been a racist and held such radically abolitionist views. His political views were a part of the reason he was assassinated in Carthage jail.
  2. You claim that the Book of Mormon is racist. However, you never give me any verses to convince me of this. Rather, you gave me 3 Nephi 2:15-16, which I’ve responded to many times now. Also, you never explain why such a racist book would have a verse like this in it: “For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.” -2 Nephi 26:33
  3. You never gave me any racist quotes by Joseph Smith. I did define your perimeters, but I don’t think they were that ridiculous.
On another note, you never told me how I ever dodged your argument, considering that I responded to it immediately after you offered it to me.
  1. You never got back to me on my request of you to list specific similarities between “Views of the Hebrews” and the BOM. I’ve already admitted that there are some, but I want to address them on a case by case basis, and I don’t want to give give points against myself. You can do this with a quick Google search, there are more than plenty Anti-Mormon websites willing to fill you in.
  2. You never told me how Jeff Lindsay and FAIR have been discredited.
I would like a complete response for each and every one of these points, as well as a similar list of points I never answered. I would be more than happy to respond to such a list. Also, please leave my arguments in their entirety this time.
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Fine. When I am at a computer, I will play along with yet another of your dodges and re answer all those questions again. I do not blame you for continuing to dodge. It is the typical way Mormons run away from facts.
 
Stephen168 said:
science has proven the Book of Mormon to be fiction, so how it came about or who Smith stole material from is just academic at this point
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What a horribly unresearched, ignorant statement. You mind referencing this “science” your referring to? You can spend years reading BYU articles on the authenticity of the BOM. Does this count as science too?
 
compuadam said:
You mind referencing this “science” your referring to?
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DNA science has shown the American Indians to be from Asia, not the Land of Jerusalem.

Archeological science finds no Chariots, no elephants remains, no swords in the Americas prior to Spanish arriving 600 years ago.

Archeological sciences find nothing, nothing in Hill Cumorah NY. The LDS church could evacuate this hillside …show the world the remains of a great battle. Show the millions of human remains, show the swords…yet there is no action on their part, Why?
You can spend years reading BYU articles on the [supposed] authenticity of the BOM.
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adding the word supposed…you could be right. BYU has spent years being misled down an alley with no exit. 🤷
Does this count as science too?
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Sadly no. Science contradicts BYU. There is no science supporting the BoM. Everything from BYU is speculation built on a fable, a piece of fiction. Speculation and opinion is not science.

There was no apostasy, let alone a great apostasy. This too, as much as anything else is fiction, a fable. The bible is clear that the Christ sent the Holy Spirit to guide the Church to all Truth, until the end of time. The Church grew, guided by the Holy Spirit and continues to grow, guided by the Spirit, teaching without error on faith and morals,
 
compuadam said:
What a horribly unresearched, ignorant statement. You mind referencing this “science” your referring to? You can spend years reading BYU articles on the authenticity of the BOM. Does this count as science too?
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Mind referencing your sources? How much effort have you put into research? Using Mormon sources is a little self-fulfilling. The articles, at best, suggest a way it might have been possible (stretching some credibility), but are not definitive and not universally accepted. They are not proof.

Sure, found an article that suggests a way that Nephi could have made it to the Americas sailing east (ton of could of, would of, should of and the need for an El Nino). It would have landed him in South America, Central at best. Science, through DNA studies (other threads have linked these sources), has identified that no ancestry exists in those areas to support this possibility. Still, this is much more plausible sounding than the Jaredites, right?

There is not enough detail in the BoM to ever be conclusive about any of this “evidence”. Need to discover actual, independently verifiable evidence - like a copy of the BoM in “Reformed Egyptian” from a dig of one of the proposed BoM cities would be ideal.

What about the other authenticity? Was it plagiarized by Smith or his buddies from similar works or an author in his congregation who let them borrow a manuscript that went missing? He did not rewrite the first 116 pages 'cause he could not (only copy was lost and he did not have the actual means to make a new copy). How long was it before he started “translating” again? How long did it take him to dictate the first 116 pages? How long did it take him to dictate the remaining book when he restarted? How do we refute the speculation? His witnesses, why would anyone shown the proof of God establishing his church walk away - and such a high percentage of them? They did not have to deny their witness, their actions spoke louder than their words - and they were friends and family. Never mind that they never actually saw any such plates, so they did not have any “witnessing” to deny, did they?
 
compuadam said:
Tex-
Here, for your own personal convenience, is a list of points you never answered.

Ok…I would post all the points YOU have dodged, but I am limited to time. However, a decent start is the two sites I posted…one a Mormon Scientist who says I am right,
  1. You claim that Joseph Smith was a racist many times throughout your arguments. However, you never explain how he could have been a racist and held such radically abolitionist views. His political views were a part of the reason he was assassinated in Carthage jail.
Ok…first, you do not need to be dishonest. I said LDS LEADERS were racist. YOU tried to limit and frame it to Joseph Smith. You can read some of the horribly racist comments made by LDS Leaders as posted by Kimg. I would love to hear your justification for those remarks. I expect you will continue to dodge them. As to Joe,

In 1838, Joseph Smith answered the following question while en route from Kirtland to Missouri, as follows: “Are the Mormons abolitionists? No … we do not believe in setting the Negroes free.” (Smith 1977, p. 120)

But you also ignore the various verses from his book…the book of mormon, where I posted his racists comments. I understand why you igniore them, I am NOT sure why you then later claim I did not respond.
  1. You claim that the Book of Mormon is racist. However, you never give me any verses to convince me of this. Rather, you gave me 3 Nephi 2:15-16, which I’ve responded to many times now. Also, you never explain why such a racist book would have a verse like this in it: “For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.” -2 Nephi 26:33
Actually, I DID. I posted SEVERAL verses from the Book of Mormon showing racism against blacks. Please do not misrepresent what I have posted.
  1. You never gave me any racist quotes by Joseph Smith. I did define your perimeters, but I don’t think they were that ridiculous.
Yes, I did. And I reject your redefining my perimeters and ask you to FINALLY respond to the quotes posted by Kimg.
  1. You never got back to me on my request of you to list specific similarities between “Views of the Hebrews” and the BOM. I’ve already admitted that there are some, but I want to address them on a case by case basis, and I don’t want to give give points against myself. You can do this with a quick Google search, there are more than plenty Anti-Mormon websites willing to fill you in.
Yes, I did. I referred you to another thread where BH Roberts even agrees with me. You have ignored and dodged it. But here is another site that uses BH Roberts comparison. I expect you will dodge this, too mormonhandbook.com/home/view-of-the-hebrews.html
  1. You never told me how Jeff Lindsay and FAIR have been discredited.
ok…here, a Mormon says he is wrong: Bro. Lindsay has done a disservice to his church in this area - he would be best advised to read Baugh’s book, and follow his example.

tungate.com/Missouri_1838.htm

and this is just one example. I do not have time to post all the examples for you…

I would like a complete response for each and every one of these points, as well as a similar list of points I never answered. I would be more than happy to respond to such a list. Also, please leave my arguments in their entirety this time.

You already know what you have dodged. I do not have to e babysit you thru this. If you had time to make an inaccurate list against me, you have time to make an accurate for you. I expect you to stop dodging or admit you have no answers.
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Still no response Comp? You wanted proof, there it is. How can you argue against it? I know its hard to read it when you try and defend these folks. But its there and was said which is sad. If you can continue to believe these men, then you are lost. Do you really think God (Jesus) is a racist and would damn so many people? We are all Gods children so it makes no sense what so ever for these men to say otherwise. Which to me sounds like its all false in the way of your church. Im sorry but please listen to reason friend. Let the real Holy Spirit fill you and set you free.
 
compuadam said:
What a horribly unresearched, ignorant statement. You mind referencing this “science” your referring to? You can spend years reading BYU articles on the authenticity of the BOM. Does this count as science too?
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In the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith claims the Book of Mormon is the source of the aboriginal people of America. This is also what my Mormon friends believed in 1970’s; all American Indians were Semitic people who came from the middle-east about 2,000 years before Christ. I understand until very recently, Native members and investigators were still being told they are the people of the Book of Mormon.
At the time they told me the basic story of the Book of Mormon, scientists knew the American Indians came from Asia over 10,000 years before Christ. They knew by comparing their languages, physiology, and archeological evidence.
Since the 1970’s, DNA confirms what Scientist have know about the true source of the American Indians. Additional evidence has also pushed back the date the first Asian arrival by 2 to 4 times; making the Book of Mormon wrong by 20,000 years, and Joseph Smith wrong about the story being true.
compuadam said:
You can spend years reading BYU articles on the authenticity of the BOM. Does this count as science too?
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The fact that BYU is the only place that claims to disagree with the rest of the science community on this issue would tell me that it is not science. As a Catholic I don’t have to rely on Catholic universities for the truth of Catholic history.
 
compuadam said:
What a horribly unresearched, ignorant statement. You mind referencing this “science” your referring to? You can spend years reading BYU articles on the authenticity of the BOM. Does this count as science too?
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Any luck with the Archeological digs proving the inhabitants of the BoM? Nope

Any artifacts like Iron, and concrete that is mentioned? Nope

How about animals mentioned in the BoM (horses) that had not yet been imported to this country?

The First Presidency has stated that the Hill Cumorrah in NY state is the site of the great battle, yet won’t let any archeological digs.

Why do you suppose that is?

Have you noticed the archeological focus has migrated from NY state, to Mexico, and Central America?

Your own science can’t find history of these people, and you’re questioning others? 🤷

This is actually a very good Wiki article, complete with sources. Try this on for size.
 
So you would believe a man rather than God and Jesus? The truth is out there for all to see and read. Can you count how many of smiths prophecies came true? Do you believe what all your prophets have said are true? IMHO, the lds seem to praise smith rather than God and trust his words rather than Gods.
 
twopekinguys said:
This is actually a very good Wiki article, complete with sources. Try this on for size.
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This stood out:

*Michael D. Coe, a prominent Mesoamerican archaeologist and Professor Emeritus of Anthropology at Yale University, wrote,

“As far as I know there is not one professionally trained archaeologist, who is not a Mormon, who sees any scientific justification for believing the historicity of The Book of Mormon, and I would like to state that there are quite a few Mormon archaeologists who join this group”.*

And this:

*During the period of 1959-1961, NWAF colleague Dee Green was editor of the BYU Archaeological Society Newsletter and had an article from it published in the summer of 1969 edition of Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, pp 76–78 in which he acknowledged that the NWAF findings did not back up the veracity of the Book of Mormon claims. After this article and another six years of fruitless search, Thomas Ferguson published a 29-page paper in 1975 where he concluded,

“I’m afraid that up to this point, I must agree with Dee Green, who has told us that to date there is no Book-of-Mormon geography…”.[106]

In 1976, referring to his own paper, Ferguson wrote a letter in which he stated:

“…The real implication of the paper is that you can’t set the Book-of-Mormon geography down anywhere — because it is fictional and will never meet the requirements of the dirt-archeology. I should say — what is in the ground will never conform to what is in the book.”*
 
Stephen168 said:
snip . . .
The fact that BYU is the only place that claims to disagree with the rest of the science community on this issue would tell me that it is not science. As a Catholic I don’t have to rely on Catholic universities for the truth of Catholic history.
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And thank God for that. Since so many Catholic universities are no longer truly Catholic.
 
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