The Book of Mormon

[twopekinguys]

I’ve watched a few of the newcarabu videos in the past. He is the temple worker mentioned above, “Sir David”. Sadly, he has turned aethiest, which I know is the experience of numerous ex-Mormons turned Catholic here on CAF. I pray that he turns Catholic.

This one in particular has stood out for me as it was particularly touching. Makes me wonder about the having a temple in Rome and how any Italian could ever be Mormon.

youtube.com/watch?v=4Wmte70JJCg

You’re right. Many of those who leave mormonism become atheist.

I think I understand why, and I can’t really blame them.

They have found the religious system they held to, is false, and they were lied to. People tend to hate themselves for falling for something like mormonism, so they end up hating every religion.

I think many need a cooling off period so to speak. An ear to listen and not judge. A shoulder to lean on that isn’t going to push them one way or another.

Most of all, we need to just be there. When they’re ready, they’ll make their move. All we can do is pray for them. (alot)

Jesus will meet them where they are, wherever, whenever they are ready.

 

[batman1973]

I am sure the Italians will be told that they are the Book of Mormon people, too.

I knew a few Mormon Missonaries who would say “Everyone is Mormon. Most just don’t know it yet.”

 

[compuadam]

1. Where, specifically, did the Book of Mormon take place?

Part of it takes place in Jerusalem, part takes place in the Arabian peninsula, and part takes place in North America.

1. Where, specifically, is Zerehemla?

Zerehamla would have been located around modern day Iowa.

1. Where, specifically, is Bountiful?

Bountiful was a city located on the edge of the modern day Arabian Peninsula. A fertile patch of land has been found in that area that matches the BOM description perfectly. Now, how do you think that an early 19th century farmer could have known so much about the Arabian Peninsula?

1. Does it bother you that the Book of Mormon was changed to reflect the knowledge that blacks were not becoming white?

The verse that I’m assuming your referring to (2 Nephi 30:6) was not intended to refer to skin color in the first place. The slight change (“White and Delightsome” to “Pure and Delightsome”) only clarifies this.

How do you explain a young man in 1830s America translating plates in Reformed Egyptian and his translations are almost word for word the same as English Scholars in the 1600s translating the Bible from Greek and Hebrew?

This one’s pretty complex. Here’s a site that can explain it far better than I can.

en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Plagiarism_accusations/King_James_Bible

How do you explain the several similarities between the Book of Mormon and A View of the Hebrews…a book written by man who was a preacher at Cowdery’s Church and a book that Joseph read?

Pure coincidence. While the BOM and A View of the Hebrews have a similar concept, they contradict each other on almost every other given opportunity.

 

[TexanKnight]

Part of it takes place in Jerusalem, part takes place in the Arabian peninsula, and part takes place in North America.

Prove it. I have heard LDS Scholars say it took place in Central America. Others have said South America. One LDS author, who wrote a book called Voices From the Dust, swears it happened in Columbia.

Zerehamla would have been located around modern day Iowa.

Prove it. Show me documented proof from archaeologists that prove that.

Bountiful was a city located on the edge of the modern day Arabian Peninsula. A fertile patch of land has been found in that area that matches the BOM description perfectly. Now, how do you think that an early 19th century farmer could have known so much about the Arabian Peninsula?

I appreciate your unsubstantiated opinion. Now show me proof. I can prove where Jerusalem was and is.

The verse that I’m assuming your referring to (2 Nephi 30:6) was not intended to refer to skin color in the first place. The slight change (“White and Delightsome” to “Pure and Delightsome”) only clarifies this.

Wrong. Originally, Joseph taught that if blacks became LDS and followed the scriptures, they would become white.

The Book of Mormon, published in the late 1820s, states the following about a group of people who rebelled against God:

And [God] had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. And thus saith the Lord God; I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities." (2 Nephi 5:21)

Note the phrasing…including the word “delightsome”

Now, some folks DID have their skin become white…

Later, the Book of Mormon records that an additional group of Lamanites converted and that “their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites… and they were numbered among the Nephites, and were called Nephites” (3 Nephi 2:15-16).

So, the Book of Mormon, AND Joseph, taught that blacks would become “white and delightsome”.

But there was a problem. Blacks were believing…and staying black. What to do?

Change the Book of Mormon from “white and delightsome” to “Pure and delightsome”.

I apreciate your effort to “whitewash” that teaching…but that will not work here.

This one’s pretty complex. Here’s a site that can explain it far better than I can.

en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Plagiarism_accusations/King_James_Bible

Really? Instead of good scholarly work, you give me an apologetics website that has already been proven to totally without merit? I would have hoped you could do better than that. I appreciate the effort, though

Pure coincidence. While the BOM and A View of the Hebrews have a similar concept, they contradict each other on almost every other given opportunity.

lol…coincidence? I can place one of the guys who helped write the book of mormon in the very congregation of the man who wrote “View of the Hebrews” and show you a plethora of similar phrases from both books and ideas that are similar, and ideas and conclusions that are similar and all you say is, “it was a coincidence”?

 

[compuadam]

Prove it. I have heard LDS Scholars say it took place in Central America. Others have said South America. One LDS author, who wrote a book called Voices From the Dust, swears it happened in Columbia.

Thinking back, I should have typed “The Americas” rather than “North America”. I’ve always thought that they landed around Southern North America and moved northward, but there are several scholars that would disagree with that. Either way, we have a record of their civilization, and that is the most important thing.

Prove it. Show me documented proof from archaeologists that prove that.

Do you have so little faith that you need absolute proof for everything in the scriptures? If so, then how can you believe in Sodom and Gomorrah? Can you prove the existence of Sodom and Gomorrah, or do you have faith that Moses accurately recorded the book of Genesis?

I appreciate your unsubstantiated opinion. Now show me proof. I can prove where Jerusalem was and is.

How is that an “unsubstantiated opinion”? Bountiful is exactly as the BOM describes it. There’s no way that JS could have described the Arabian peninsula so accurately. I’m not going to say that this is absolute proof of the BOM being true, because it isn’t. It’s just one more thing to consider before you write it off as being false. As for your request for proof, look at the reply before this one.

Wrong. Originally, Joseph taught that if blacks became LDS and followed the scriptures, they would become white.

The Book of Mormon, published in the late 1820s, states the following about a group of people who rebelled against God:

And [God] had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. And thus saith the Lord God; I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities." (2 Nephi 5:21)

Note the phrasing…including the word “delightsome”

Now, some folks DID have their skin become white…

Later, the Book of Mormon records that an additional group of Lamanites converted and that “their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites… and they were numbered among the Nephites, and were called Nephites” (3 Nephi 2:15-16).

So, the Book of Mormon, AND Joseph, taught that blacks would become “white and delightsome”.

But there was a problem. Blacks were believing…and staying black. What to do?

Change the Book of Mormon from “white and delightsome” to “Pure and delightsome”.

I apreciate your effort to “whitewash” that teaching…but that will not work here.

Yet again, the phrase was to clarify what the BOM was saying. Do you have to take every word completely literally? Couldn’t the color of the skin symbolize something even bigger? I understand that this doesn’t comply with modern political correctness standards, but I doubt that that’s what Nephi had in mind when he recorded these. Also, Joseph Smith NEVER taught that a black person would change color upon becoming Mormon. He actually had strongly abolitionist views, and part of his presidential platform involved abolishing slavery. I gave you my argument, I didn’t"whitewash" LDS history.

Really? Instead of good scholarly work, you give me an apologetics website that has already been proven to totally without merit? I would have hoped you could do better than that. I appreciate the effort, though

I don’t understand what’s so wrong about referring you to a site that can answer your question better than I can. The page that I referred to contains a wealth of information that I simply couldn’t squeeze into a paragraph or two.

lol…coincidence? I can place one of the guys who helped write the book of mormon in the very congregation of the man who wrote “View of the Hebrews” and show you a plethora of similar phrases from both books and ideas that are similar, and ideas and conclusions that are similar and all you say is, “it was a coincidence”?

I’ll say it again, it was a coincidence. I gave you a fine point in my last argument, which you did not respond to. Rather, you gave me a quote that I never said and then acted as if it were my entire argument. I did not just say that “it was a coincidence”, I said that while the book are similar they contradict each other on almost every point. The fact that the “A View of the Hebrews” author happened to be in the same congregation as Smith is an unfortunate coincidence. If you don’t believe this, just know that there were many, many elements in “A View of the Hebrews” that Smith could have easily stolen to add to his book which are not in the BOM.

 

[KathleenGee]

compundium…is that who you are now, confundido???

 

[truthseeker32]

Now, how do you think that an early 19th century farmer could have known so much about the Arabian Peninsula?

You make the faulty assumption that he had to be knowledgeable of the Arabian peninsula or have received divine revelation in order to make an accurate claim about it. Anyone who has a basic understanding of geography and climate could assume there would be fertile areas in the Arabian peninsula by the very fact that there are bodies of water surrounding and running through the area. That Joseph Smith wrote about a fertile place isn’t a miraculous thing. If you look long enough for connections you will find them. I bet I could make just as good an argument that a certain region of the world fits Tolkein’s Middle Earth. This doesn’t mean that Lord of the Rings is a real history.

How is that an “unsubstantiated opinion”? Bountiful is exactly as the BOM describes it. There’s no way that JS could have described the Arabian peninsula so accurately. I’m not going to say that this is absolute proof of the BOM being true, because it isn’t. It’s just one more thing to consider before you write it off as being false. As for your request for proof, look at the reply before this one.

The description given of Bountiful isn’t actually that detailed. It could probably be matched with multiple areas in the southern Arabian peninsula.

"But again, the actual text of the Book of Mormon casts a wide net. “Nearly” east encompasses a range, (how far north or south can you go before you stop traveling “nearly” east?) and the shoreline along Yemen and Oman runs somewhat east-west. There are hundreds of miles worth of coast where a location like Bountiful could have been found that would have been “nearly eastward” of the location of NHM. And since Nephi documents that it took them eight years to get there, the distance is a complete unknown. If we want to be liberal with what “nearly east” means, they could have made it to China.

As it is, several fertile locations east of NHM in Oman have been proposed as being Bountiful. With multiple possible locations, it’s just a matter of picking the best one. Aston chooses Khor Kharfot, and gives a list of items that match between it and the Bountiful in the Book of Mormon."

Source: examiner.com/article/evidence-for-the-book-of-mormon-do-nahom-and-bountiful-exist

 

[RebeccaJ]

You make the faulty assumption that he had to be knowledgeable of the Arabian peninsula or have received divine revelation in order to make an accurate claim about it. Anyone who has a basic understanding of geography and climate could assume there would be fertile areas in the Arabian peninsula by the very fact that there are bodies of water surrounding and running through the area. That Joseph Smith wrote about a fertile place isn’t a miraculous thing. If you look long enough for connections you will find them. I bet I could make just as good an argument that a certain region of the world fits Tolkein’s Middle Earth. This doesn’t mean that Lord of the Rings is a real history.

Everyone knows, Tolkein’s work is a spiritual and anthropological history of England.

 

[truthseeker32]

Everyone knows, Tolkein’s work is a spiritual and anthropological history of England.

I would say it has more spiritual truths than the Book of Mormon too

 

[truthseeker32]

You make the faulty assumption that he had to be knowledgeable of the Arabian peninsula or have received divine revelation in order to make an accurate claim about it. Anyone who has a basic understanding of geography and climate could assume there would be fertile areas in the Arabian peninsula by the very fact that there are bodies of water surrounding and running through the area. That Joseph Smith wrote about a fertile place isn’t a miraculous thing. If you look long enough for connections you will find them. I bet I could make just as good an argument that a certain region of the world fits Tolkein’s Middle Earth. This doesn’t mean that Lord of the Rings is a real history.

The description given of Bountiful isn’t actually that detailed. It could probably be matched with multiple areas in the southern Arabian peninsula.

"But again, the actual text of the Book of Mormon casts a wide net. “Nearly” east encompasses a range, (how far north or south can you go before you stop traveling “nearly” east?) and the shoreline along Yemen and Oman runs somewhat east-west. There are hundreds of miles worth of coast where a location like Bountiful could have been found that would have been “nearly eastward” of the location of NHM. And since Nephi documents that it took them eight years to get there, the distance is a complete unknown. If we want to be liberal with what “nearly east” means, they could have made it to China.

As it is, several fertile locations east of NHM in Oman have been proposed as being Bountiful. With multiple possible locations, it’s just a matter of picking the best one. Aston chooses Khor Kharfot, and gives a list of items that match between it and the Bountiful in the Book of Mormon."

Source: examiner.com/article/evidence-for-the-book-of-mormon-do-nahom-and-bountiful-exist

I thought I would add this as well:

"Several locations with names somewhat like “Nahom” are to be found in the Arabian Peninsula. Given the fact that Arabia is a Semitic-language area bordering the lands of the Bible, this should come as no surprise. The work of the Hiltons and others in finding these locations only serves to show the imprecision of the Book of Mormon description. After all, if the detail is so good, why the to propose several candidate sites? This is clearly not the case with Biblical archaeology, which, as has been shown, has one location for Jericho, one location for other Old Testament towns, cities, rivers, and mountains. Not so with the Book of Mormon. Why not? The simple fact of the matter is, the Book of Mormon description is general enough to be worthless. The location of Nahom is nothing more than shooting arrows, then drawing the target. " from mormonthink.com

 

[TexanKnight]

Thinking back, I should have typed “The Americas” rather than “North America”. I’ve always thought that they landed around Southern North America and moved northward, but there are several scholars that would disagree with that. Either way, we have a record of their civilization, and that is the most important thing.

Response- First, you have no record. You have a book that has no basis in fact by any credible science. So, prove it is a record. You can’t.

Do you have so little faith that you need absolute proof for everything in the scriptures? If so, then how can you believe in Sodom and Gomorrah? Can you prove the existence of Sodom and Gomorrah, or do you have faith that Moses accurately recorded the book of Genesis?

   Response-   Is that your best shot?   I do not need absolute proof....but you have ZERO proof.   All you have is a book written by a convicted con man

How is that an “unsubstantiated opinion”? Bountiful is exactly as the BOM describes it. There’s no way that JS could have described the Arabian peninsula so accurately. I’m not going to say that this is absolute proof of the BOM being true, because it isn’t. It’s just one more thing to consider before you write it off as being false. As for your request for proof, look at the reply before this one.

Response- Lol. No, it isn’t. But hey…find me ANY non lds geographer who agrees with your convicted con man and we can talk

Yet again, the phrase was to clarify what the BOM was saying. Do you have to take every word completely literally? Couldn’t the color of the skin symbolize something even bigger? I understand that this doesn’t comply with modern political correctness standards, but I doubt that that’s what Nephi had in mind when he recorded these. Also, Joseph Smith NEVER taught that a black person would change color upon becoming Mormon. He actually had strongly abolitionist views, and part of his presidential platform involved abolishing slavery. I gave you my argument, I didn’t"whitewash" LDS history.

Response- Sure you did. You are trying desperately to change what Joe meant when he said white and delight some, You ignore his teachings to justify yet another change to his fictional book that he said was the most correct.

I don’t understand what’s so wrong about referring you to a site that can answer your question better than I can. The page that I referred to contains a wealth of information that I simply couldn’t squeeze into a paragraph or two.

Response- I get it. You have no answers so you refer me to a site that has been shown to be horribly wrong

I’ll say it again, it was a coincidence. I gave you a fine point in my last argument, which you did not respond to. Rather, you gave me a quote that I never said and then acted as if it were my entire argument. I did not just say that “it was a coincidence”, I said that while the book are similar they contradict each other on almost every point. The fact that the “A View of the Hebrews” author happened to be in the same congregation as Smith is an unfortunate coincidence. If you don’t believe this, just know that there were many, many elements in “A View of the Hebrews” that Smith could have easily stolen to add to his book which are not in the BOM.

Response - Lol…seriously? A book written by one of the Book of Mormon writer’s pastors with the same premise and a ton of similar passages and all you can do is say it is a coincidence? You lost all credibility

Be blessed

 

[compuadam]

Response- First, you have no record. You have a book that has no basis in fact by any credible science. So, prove it is a record. You can’t.

There’s plenty of evidence for the book of Mormon being true. How do you explain a stream in Bountiful exactly as described in the BOM, after decades of the idea of a stream in the Arabian Peninsula being mocked by Anti-Mormons? How do you explain Joseph Smith’s unexplained knowledge of Mesoamerican technology? Yet again, none of these offer definite proof of the BOM being true, they just offer physical evidence of it’s truth. Now, I know that your opposed to links, but here is a link to a list of these pieces of evidence, written by Jeff Lindsay.
jefflindsay.com/myturn.shtml

Response- Is that your best shot? I do not need absolute proof…but you have ZERO proof. All you have is a book written by a convicted con man

Just like there’s zero proof for the existence of Sodom and Gomorrah, there’s zero proof for the cities described in the BOM. However, just like there’s evidence for Sodom and Gomorrah, there’s evidence for the BOM cities. You can’t put your faith solely in Earthly discoveries, because discoveries made by man can be very unreliable. Rather, you have to have faith in God and his prophets that the scriptures are 100% true.

Response- Lol. No, it isn’t. But hey…find me ANY non lds geographer who agrees with your convicted con man and we can talk

What I find funny about this response is that you manage to completely skirt around answering any of my points. You never tell me how the belief that JS wouldn’t have known enough about the Arabian peninsula to write the BOM on his own is an “unsubstantiated opinion”. All that you do is tell me that it’s not something to be considered before writing off the Book of Mormon as false, and then you tell me to find a Non-LDS archeologist that agrees that the BOM is true. Does an archeologist lose any validity in your eyes if he’s a Mormon? Why would a Non-Mormon archeologist look for evidence of the BOM anyway?

Response- Sure you did. You are trying desperately to change what Joe meant when he said white and delight some, You ignore his teachings to justify yet another change to his fictional book that he said was the most correct.

Yet again, you’ve managed to skirt around actually answering any of my points. All that you do is throw an empty accusation of trying to " change what Joe meant when he said white and delight some". Don’t get me wrong, we’ll never know exactly what happened in the time of the BOM. However, scriptures don’t always have to be taken at face value. It could have symbolically meant many things. Also, you never told me why you outright lied and said that JS taught that Black people would change color upon becoming a Mormon. If he was as racist as you make him out to be, then why was he a radical abolitionist throughout his life, and why did his presidential campaign platform include freeing the slaves?

Response- I get it. You have no answers so you refer me to a site that has been shown to be horribly wrong

Ah, the third time you offer absolutely no response to my point. You never told me why giving you a link to a site that could answer the question better than I could is unacceptable. But, anyway, here’s an answer:
Do you believe that the New Testament is a fraud, because it quotes the Old Testament? These segments that closely resemble the Bible are nothing more than that: quotes. Considering that Jesus visits the Native Americans post resurrection, is it really so unlikely to think that He may have given a sermon to them similar to the Sermon on the Mount?

Response - Lol…seriously? A book written by one of the Book of Mormon writer’s pastors with the same premise and a ton of similar passages and all you can do is say it is a coincidence? You lost all credibility

I will give you my response to that point for the third time. The books have a similar premise but they contradict each other on almost every other point. I can give you a list of elements JS could have stolen for the Book of Mormon that he didn’t. The truth is, It was just a coincidence! If you have anything to add to this argument that you didn’t the past two times, it would be much appreciated. Also, I do not consider taking a quote that I never gave you and then shooting it down like it was my only argument to be adding to the debate at all.

Now, the last part of that answer, where you say that “you lost all credibility” fascinates me. After all, I’m not the one that claimed JS taught that black people would become white upon converting to Mormonism. I’m not the one that claimed that the 1840 edit to the BOM was made because black people weren’t turning white. I’m not the one that put something into quotations that I never even said, and then shot it down as if it were my only point. However, I’m the one that loses all credibility?

God Bless

 

[KathleenGee]

There is no dna memory, nothing in the Jewish mindset that connects to such concepts of what Mormons claimed happened in North America or anywhere else.

The Middle East was a teeming population…why did the Lord pass over them over Europe Asia…to come out here…? Where are archaelogical finds?

Was the area wiped out some how?..by a meteor??? There are no wiped out areas or signs…just the opposite…Indian mounds.

What Mormonism claims about Christ…was never made known, no historical evidence, nothing noted by the Apostles…by their followers, ancient Christians…

If Joseph Smith’s claims were true…the Holy Spirit would have preserved them through some witnesses…but He did not.

 

[compuadam]

There is no dna memory, nothing in the Jewish mindset that connects to such concepts of what Mormons claimed happened in North America or anywhere else.

What “dna memory” are you referring to? This point makes no sense. The “Jewish mindset” is irrelevant and doesn’t even fit in to your argument.

The Middle East was a teeming population…why did the Lord pass over them over Europe Asia…to come out here…? Where are archaelogical finds?

I’m not sure what your trying to ask here. Do you believe that The Lord moved the entire population of the Middle East over Europe and Asia? The BOM never says anything even remotely close to that. The Jewish population that sailed to the Americas started in Jerusalem. They only had to cross the Arabian Peninsula to get to the sea, not Europe and Asia.

Was the area wiped out some how?..by a meteor??? There are no wiped out areas or signs…just the opposite…Indian mounds.

What? What area are you referring to? Do you mean the cities in America? Much evidence of these cities has been found. How is an Indian mound the opposite of evidence? Are you referring to the cities in Arabia?

What Mormonism claims about Christ…was never made known, no historical evidence, nothing noted by the Apostles…by their followers, ancient Christians…

I’m not sure what this is asking, and I still disagree with it. Just look at Ezekiel 37:16-17, an actual prophecy of Joseph Smith and the BOM.

If Joseph Smith’s claims were true…the Holy Spirit would have preserved them through some witnesses…but He did not.

That’s not necessarily true. In the Book of Mormon, the Wicked (Lamanites) killed anyone with any knowledge of the visitation made by Christ (Nephites).

God Bless

 

[Porknpie]

I’m not sure what your trying to ask here. Do you believe that The Lord moved the entire population of the Middle East over Europe and Asia? The BOM never says anything even remotely close to that. The Jewish population that sailed to the Americas started in Jerusalem. They only had to cross the Arabian Peninsula to get to the sea, not Europe and Asia.

Comp-

What did Jewish boat technology look like in 600 bc? Here’s a boat from the King Solomon era. Are you thinking that they rowed from Jerusalem to the Americas or that this one sail got them there? If so, they would have had to stop a lot along the way for food…and there is no historical record in Israel (unlike Spain and Columbus) nor any other country along the way of their journey…nor of their landing.

 

[TexanKnight]

There’s plenty of evidence for the book of Mormon being true. Now, I know that your opposed to links, but here is a link to a list of these pieces of evidence, written by Jeff Lindsay.
jefflindsay.com/myturn.shtml

I get it. I asked for ANY non-LDS geographer, scientist, historian, linguist or archaeologist and the best you can get me is a discredited Jeff Lindsey. We have already discredited your comments here. Why can’t you provide what I asked for?

Just like there’s zero proof for the existence of Sodom and Gomorrah, there’s zero proof for the cities described in the BOM.

Red Herring Alert! You mentioned ONE city in the Bible we can’t find and it is the ONE city GOD DESTROYED. And you try to compare it with the fact you can find ZERO cities from the Book of Mormon after they left Jerusalem. Can you please not be intellectually dishonest with me and just provide me with ANY non-LDS geographer, scientist, historian, linguist or archaeologist who agrees with you? I can find many non-Christian geographers, scientists, historians, linguists and archaeologists who with will agree with me on Biblical city locations…

What I find funny about this response is that you manage to completely skirt around answering any of my points. You never tell me how the belief that JS wouldn’t have known enough about the Arabian peninsula to write the BOM on his own is an “unsubstantiated opinion”.

The points were addressed. First, what he described matches many areas. Second, non-LDS geographer, scientist, historian, linguist or archaeologist have discounted your theory. But, hey, at least Jeff Lindsey agrees with you.

All that you do is tell me that it’s not something to be considered before writing off the Book of Mormon as false, and then you tell me to find a Non-LDS archeologist that agrees that the BOM is true. Does an archeologist lose any validity in your eyes if he’s a Mormon? Why would a Non-Mormon archeologist look for evidence of the BOM anyway?

They wouldn’t…but most discoveries come while people search for other things. In all the plethora of expeditions looking for Mayan, Inca, and Aztec ruins, if any BofM cities existed, they would have been uncovered. Heck, there have even been expeditions specifically designed to look for BofM cities and have come back empty handed. Deal with truth, ok?

Yet again, you’ve managed to skirt around actually answering any of my points. All that you do is throw an empty accusation of trying to " change what Joe meant when he said white and delight some".

Not true. I provided other examples where he said blacks would become white. I have provided other verses dealing with blacks becoming white. The verse in question said blacks would become white…but…when it was discovered that was not happening, the verse was changed from white to pure. And all I get from you is your now-famous “it is simply a coincidence” argument. You are so blind to the truth that you will come up with anything to avoid facing it.

Don’t get me wrong, we’ll never know exactly what happened in the time of the BOM. However, scriptures don’t always have to be taken at face value. It could have symbolically meant many things. Also, you never told me why you outright lied and said that JS taught that Black people would change color upon becoming a Mormon. If he was as racist as you make him out to be, then why was he a radical abolitionist throughout his life, and why did his presidential campaign platform include freeing the slaves?

I will ask you again…do you want me to post you prophets’ horribly racist statements or will you just agree with me to drop your silly defense that they were not racists? Do not dodge this challenge again, please.

I will give you my response to that point for the third time. The books have a similar premise but they contradict each other on almost every other point. I can give you a list of elements JS could have stolen for the Book of Mormon that he didn’t. The truth is, It was just a coincidence! If you have anything to add to this argument that you didn’t the past two times, it would be much appreciated. Also, I do not consider taking a quote that I never gave you and then shooting it down like it was my only argument to be adding to the debate at all.

Sigh…you again make contentions you cannot support. SHOW ME where they contradict. We have already posted where they do not and how they are similar and that even your apologist BH Roberts ADMITTED this was a problem…all you can do is refuse to acknowledge that while failing to provide any support for your contentions. We DO provide.

Now, the last part of that answer, where you say that “you lost all credibility” fascinates me.

And it saddens me.

After all, I’m not the one that claimed JS taught that black people would become white upon converting to Mormonism.

No, you alleged prophet did…

I’m not the one that claimed that the 1840 edit to the BOM was made because black people weren’t turning white.

No, history supports that…you ignore it

I’m not the one that put something into quotations that I never even said, and then shot it down as if it were my only point. However, I’m the one that loses all credibility?

Sadly, yes. You defend with unsupported arguments in the face of documented proof and act like the proof never existed.

God Bless

I hope you meant the True God and not the LDS god…if so, thank you, God Bless you, too

 

[kimg901]

There are also plenty of maps that were brought over by Columbus and other explorers so someone looking at them (whether it be for education or curiosity) could see other places of the world. Let us remember that maps were just as important to them as a cell phone or computer are for us today.

Here is a link to a site that has other maps as well. fsmitha.com/h3/map37af.html

 

[RebeccaJ]

They only had to cross the Arabian Peninsula to get to the sea, not Europe and Asia.

That is your opinion. I clearly remember being taught in Mormon Sunday school that the 8 years it took for Lehi’s group to get to a sea, traveling in a southeastward direction, indicates they did indeed cross Asia. The opinion of that particular Sunday school teacher was, they landed on the west coast of South America, in what is now present day Chile. He also speculated that there may have been those in the group who married locals along the way, who then came with them to Chile.

 

[compuadam]

That is your opinion. I clearly remember being taught in Mormon Sunday school that the 8 years it took for Lehi’s group to get to a sea, traveling in a southeastward direction, indicates they did indeed cross Asia. The opinion of that particular Sunday school teacher was, they landed on the west coast of South America, in what is now present day Chile. He also speculated that there may have been those in the group who married locals along the way, who then came with them to Chile.

That’s an odd thing to teach. It’s not impossible, but it seems unlikely. Assuming that Lehi’s followers didn’t cross the Arabian Peninsula but rather crossed Asia, it seems as though it would have taken more than 8 years to complete the journey. I mean, that’s a long way. But, then again, who knows?

 

[truthseeker32]

That’s an odd thing to teach. It’s not impossible, but it seems unlikely. Assuming that Lehi’s followers didn’t cross the Arabian Peninsula but rather crossed Asia, it seems as though it would have taken more than 8 years to complete the journey. I mean, that’s a long way. But, then again, who knows?

Compuadam, would you be willing to respond to my previous post?