The Book of Mormon

[truthseeker32]

There is no truth to it. They rely on God/Jesus being a liar. Thats the only way their religion will work. And I agree with “I dont know” but its not in their vocabulary.

I think us Catholics should stop using this argument. The LDS position on the apostasy does not de facto mean that Christ was a liar. There are other ways to interpret “the Gates of Hell will not prevail” and “I will be with you, even until the end.” An apostasy from the truth could hypothetically happen, and it wouldn’t mean hell is victorious; it also wouldn’t mean Christ isn’t with us. Granted, I don’t believe the Mormon position, but our arguments and criticisms need to be stronger and less fallacious.

 

[TexanKnight]

If it ever lead anywhere, it might be worth somebody’s discussion. If the Pope spent all his time with hard hearted and stiff necked people, he’d be wasting his time too. If you want honest, you can just say, “I don’t really care about your answer, I just need some ammunition to fire at you with”

Nice dodge number 2. Just admit you have no answers. Be honest

 

[TexanKnight]

I think us Catholics should stop using this argument. The LDS position on the apostasy does not de facto mean that Christ was a liar. There are other ways to interpret “the Gates of Hell will not prevail” and “I will be with you, even until the end.” An apostasy from the truth could hypothetically happen, and it wouldn’t mean hell is victorious; it also wouldn’t mean Christ isn’t with us. Granted, I don’t believe the Mormon position, but our arguments and criticisms need to be stronger and less fallacious.

I disagree. The only way for there to be a total apostasy like the Mormons need is for Jesus to be a weak liar

 

[kimg901]

I think us Catholics should stop using this argument. The LDS position on the apostasy does not de facto mean that Christ was a liar. There are other ways to interpret “the Gates of Hell will not prevail” and “I will be with you, even until the end.” An apostasy from the truth could hypothetically happen, and it wouldn’t mean hell is victorious; it also wouldn’t mean Christ isn’t with us. Granted, I don’t believe the Mormon position, but our arguments and criticisms need to be stronger and less fallacious.

Im sorry you feel this way. But “The gates of Hell are trying to prevail” against His Church with false doctrines and lies. An apostasy would in fact mean Christ is not with us. But all we can do is pray though for those lost. The more you study Catholism the more you will understand Christ and His Church

 

[kimg901]

I disagree. The only way for there to be a total apostasy like the Mormons need is for Jesus to be a weak liar

 

[zaffiroborant]

If it ever lead anywhere, it might be worth somebody’s discussion. If the Pope spent all his time with hard hearted and stiff necked people, he’d be wasting his time too. If you want honest, you can just say, “I don’t really care about your answer, I just need some ammunition to fire at you with”

Similar to what you were doing in your “how do you pray” thread.

 

[truthseeker32]

I disagree. The only way for there to be a total apostasy like the Mormons need is for Jesus to be a weak liar

I’ve never heard a Mormon claim that there was a “total apostasy.” The Mormon claim that the Church fell into enough error that it needed to be corrected.

 

[truthseeker32]

An apostasy would in fact mean Christ is not with us.

Pretty easy to win an argument when you get to define all the terms, huh? An apostasy would not necessarily mean Christ is not with us. It could simply mean that, although Christ never left us, we turned our backs on him.

 

[TexanKnight]

I’ve never heard a Mormon claim that there was a “total apostasy.” The Mormon claim that the Church fell into enough error that it needed to be corrected.

Sadly, I have heard it called a total apostasy. In fact, there was a book written about it.

And correction would not call for a new prophet 1800 years later. They claim that happened to RESTORE, not correct.

 

[TexanKnight]

I’ve never heard a Mormon claim that there was a “total apostasy.” The Mormon claim that the Church fell into enough error that it needed to be corrected.

“But who in this generation have authority to baptize? None but those who have received authority in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints: all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives Baptism or the Lord’s supper from their hands will highly offend God, for he looks upon them as the most corrupt of all people. Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the ‘whore of Babylon’ whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act.”(Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255)

“After our Lord’s first coming, there was a day of absolute, total, and complete apostasy from the truth. Men are to be left to themselves, wanderers in darkness, without hope and without God in the world” (Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah: The Second Coming of the Son of Man, p. 36).

“…for I contend that the Latter-day Saints are the only good and true Christians, that I know anything about in the world. There are a good many people who profess to be Christians, but they are not founded on the foundation that Jesus Christ himself has laid” (Joseph F. Smith, November 2, 1891, [Stake conference message], Collected Discourses, 2:305).

 

[kimg901]

Pretty easy to win an argument when you get to define all the terms, huh? An apostasy would not necessarily mean Christ is not with us. It could simply mean that, although Christ never left us, we turned our backs on him.

You are correct. My fingers got ahead of my brain Apostate does mean that we turned from our Lord and His teachings. But isnt that what the lds church is doing? Defining all the terms to fit their beliefs?

 

[Stephen168]

If you want honest, you can just say, “I don’t really care about your answer, I just need some ammunition to fire at you with”

The truth can never be used as “ammunition.” The fact that you believe that answers about the Book of Mormon is “ammunition” leads me to believe you don’t know that it is true. Not knowing it is true is consistent with science. Science knows it is fiction.

 

[Stephen168]

Sadly, I have heard it called a total apostasy. In fact, there was a book written about it.

And correction would not call for a new prophet 1800 years later. They claim that happened to RESTORE, not correct.

Exactly, that is what I was told 40 years ago by Mormons. In fact, about five years ago missionaries came to my door and the first words out of her mouth were asking if we knew about the RESTORED church.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Pretty easy to win an argument when you get to define all the terms, huh? An apostasy would not necessarily mean Christ is not with us. It could simply mean that, although Christ never left us, we turned our backs on him.

I agree. I personally hate when I see someone claim that Mormons believe that Christ was a liar, and can understand why other LDS posters stop posting when such offensive/inflammatory claims are made. Within the context of Mormon belief, various statements about Christ as related to the purported perpetuity of the Church are interpreted in a way to make it so that Christ’s words are still true, yet an apostasy still could have occurred (for example, Christ could have been present with the Church until the end of the “age” (aion), i.e., that dispensation or period of time. Or, because the Church was supposedly restored, the gates of hades didn’t prevail, since the Church is present (in the same way that death didn’t prevail against Christ since He is resurrected). While such interpretations may be false, and certainly aren’t the traditional/historical Christian interpretations, within the context of LDS belief, they do not make Christ out to be a liar, and Mormons definitely do not believe that Christ was a liar, because of those specific interpretations of the relevant Biblical verses.

I’ve never heard a Mormon claim that there was a “total apostasy.” The Mormon claim that the Church fell into enough error that it needed to be corrected.

Actually, Mormons frequently refer to a complete and total apostasy of the primitive Church of Jesus Christ. The apostasy had to be total to need a restoration. This apostasy is believed to have included a complete loss or removal of God’s priesthood (including the supposed loss of apostles and apostolic authority), as well as the changing of various doctrines and ordinances.

 

[kimg901]

** Within the context of Mormon belief, various statements about Christ as related to the purported perpetuity of the Church are interpreted in a way to make it so that Christ’s words are still true, yet an apostasy still could have occurred (for example, Christ could have been present with the Church until the end of the “age” (aion), i.e., that dispensation or period of time**

Do you see what you typed LW? The word “interpreted”. So lets change what we want or understand the bible to be and create our own (b.o.m)

Apostasy (pron.: /əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία (apostasia), ‘a defection or revolt’, from ἀπό, apo, ‘away, apart’, στάσις, stasis, 'stand, ‘standing’) is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. One who commits apostasy (or who apostatises) is known as an apostate. The term apostasy is used by sociologists to mean renunciation and criticism of, or opposition to, a person’s former religion, in a technical sense and without pejorative connotation.

So every person that was with our Lord and after (to the present) would have to defected or revolted against Christ and His Church and its teachings. yes? How can that be so? There can be no apostasy no matter how you twist and interpretate Gods words. And to do so is calling God/Jesus a liar for leaving His Church. You lds people get upset or mad when we say this but thats what is being said.

 

[TexanKnight]

I agree. I personally hate when I see someone claim that Mormons believe that Christ was a liar, and can understand why other LDS posters stop posting when such offensive/inflammatory claims are made.

Me too…because it is the truth and they hate that we bring it to light

Within the context of Mormon belief, various statements about Christ as related to the purported perpetuity of the Church are interpreted in a way to make it so that Christ’s words are still true, yet an apostasy still could have occurred (for example, Christ could have been present with the Church until the end of the “age” (aion), i.e., that dispensation or period of time.

Yes…IF you need to twist the words, or redefine what they meant, you can always make it work

Or, because the Church was supposedly restored, the gates of hades didn’t prevail, since the Church is present (in the same way that death didn’t prevail against Christ since He is resurrected).

Except that, for 1800 years, Hades DID prevail…if only for that short time. So, for it to have prevailed, even for that shoer time, means Jesus lied when He said it would NEVER prevail

 

[RebeccaJ]

I agree. I personally hate when I see someone claim that Mormons believe that Christ was a liar, and can understand why other LDS posters stop posting when such offensive/inflammatory claims are made. Within the context of Mormon belief, various statements about Christ as related to the purported perpetuity of the Church are interpreted in a way to make it so that Christ’s words are still true, yet an apostasy still could have occurred (for example, Christ could have been present with the Church until the end of the “age” (aion), i.e., that dispensation or period of time. Or, because the Church was supposedly restored, the gates of hades didn’t prevail, since the Church is present (in the same way that death didn’t prevail against Christ since He is resurrected). While such interpretations may be false, and certainly aren’t the traditional/historical Christian interpretations, within the context of LDS belief, they do not make Christ out to be a liar, and Mormons definitely do not believe that Christ was a liar, because of those specific interpretations of the relevant Biblical verses.

Yet, Mormons use the Bible canon (modified by the Reformers) that was determined by an apostate church, who had no guidance from a closed heaven.

 

[truthseeker32]

I just want all my Catholic brothers and sisters to know that, like them, I do not believe there was a “Great Apostasy.” I side with the (Catholic) Church on this one. I only wish to cause people to put themselves in the shoes of a Mormon who comes to these forums and might potentially come into the Church. This cannot be done with uncharitable tone, fallacious arguments, and acting as though certain points are obvious. I would recommend when having dialogue with Mormons that we all ask ourselves “Might this argument I am making be confusing to this Mormon person? Is my unloving tone likely to push her away? Am I jumping ahead, failing to explain why certain points in my argument I take for granted are true?”

Next, I think it is important to understand how Mormons understand the “Great Apostasy”. There may be some that believe God completely forsook the world for 1800 years, but most I have encountered believe that there were still good people who prayed, did good things, and had spiritual guidance. There was only an apostasy because apostolic succession had been broken. Further, it should be noted that the statements of one apostle cannot be held as binding to the entire Mormon faith.

 

[Z_Ninja]

I just want all my Catholic brothers and sisters to know that, like them, I do not believe there was a “Great Apostasy.” I side with the (Catholic) Church on this one. I only wish to cause people to put themselves in the shoes of a Mormon who comes to these forums and might potentially come into the Church. This cannot be done with uncharitable tone, fallacious arguments, and acting as though certain points are obvious. I would recommend when having dialogue with Mormons that we all ask ourselves “Might this argument I am making be confusing to this Mormon person? Is my unloving tone likely to push her away? Am I jumping ahead, failing to explain why certain points in my argument I take for granted are true?”

Next, I think it is important to understand how Mormons understand the “Great Apostasy”. There may be some that believe God completely forsook the world for 1800 years, but most I have encountered believe that there were still good people who prayed, did good things, and had spiritual guidance. There was only an apostasy because apostolic succession had been broken. Further, it should be noted that the statements of one apostle cannot be held as binding to the entire Mormon faith.

I agree that we should make our arguments charitable and not so combative, but a lot of times there is no other way to say it and being typed versus spoken word, it will of course come across as uncharitable.
That being said, I agree that the point being made does make it as if Jesus did lie. I have been told it was a “Total Apostasy” and that is why the “keys” were removed from the Earth. If that is the case, then Jesus did leave us without guidance. In speaking with missionaries, they even paused before getting to the part where God tells Joseph Smith that he should not join any church, “as they are all wrong…and an abomination…” Then the missionaries proceed to tell me, “we believe the other churches have pieces of truth…”

 

[SteveVH]

I just want all my Catholic brothers and sisters to know that, like them, I do not believe there was a “Great Apostasy.” I side with the (Catholic) Church on this one. I only wish to cause people to put themselves in the shoes of a Mormon who comes to these forums and might potentially come into the Church. This cannot be done with uncharitable tone, fallacious arguments, and acting as though certain points are obvious. I would recommend when having dialogue with Mormons that we all ask ourselves “Might this argument I am making be confusing to this Mormon person? Is my unloving tone likely to push her away? Am I jumping ahead, failing to explain why certain points in my argument I take for granted are true?”

Next, I think it is important to understand how Mormons understand the “Great Apostasy”. There may be some that believe God completely forsook the world for 1800 years, but most I have encountered believe that there were still good people who prayed, did good things, and had spiritual guidance. There was only an apostasy because apostolic succession had been broken. Further, it should be noted that the statements of one apostle cannot be held as binding to the entire Mormon faith.

You make some very good points. It’s easy to forget that we’re not really here to win arguments but rather souls. Thanks for your honesty and good sense.