The Book of Mormon

[Marie5890]

You make some very good points. It’s easy to forget that we’re not really here to win arguments but rather souls. Thanks for your honesty and good sense.

That is so important. Not here to win an argument, but to correct distortions and bring souls to Christ.

If we are trying to win an argument, we all lose. That is not what Christ did in His ministry.

 

[kimg901]

That is so important. Not here to win an argument, but to correct distortions and bring souls to Christ.

If we are trying to win an argument, we all lose. That is not what Christ did in His ministry.

I dont think any of us here are trying to win anything but rather tell others what their doctrine says against what is being teached or vice versa. This is a Catholic forum so if it hurts their feelings or testimonies when the truth is presented to them then perhaps they need to really pray to God for guidance. We can help them by praying too but if in their hearts they want to hang on to their beliefs well, then its their soul(s), not ours. I agree we need to be charitable but…

 

[TexanKnight]

I just want all my Catholic brothers and sisters to know that, like them, I do not believe there was a “Great Apostasy.” I side with the (Catholic) Church on this one. I only wish to cause people to put themselves in the shoes of a Mormon who comes to these forums and might potentially come into the Church.

I do. I have. I was. I was LDS and encountered people like this. It was people like us that caused me to question and research and that research finally led me out of the LDS church

This cannot be done with uncharitable tone, fallacious arguments, and acting as though certain points are obvious.

The problem is, what is uncharitable in your eyes may not be in mine. I pray for our LDS brethern. But, as my quotes suggest in my posts, I come to the table armed with truth, and I will proudly and vigorously spout truth. If truth offends, then they need to do a lot of serious introspection

I would recommend when having dialogue with Mormons that we all ask ourselves “Might this argument I am making be confusing to this Mormon person? Is my unloving tone likely to push her away? Am I jumping ahead, failing to explain why certain points in my argument I take for granted are true?”

Actually, I ask myself “did Jesus back off the moneychangers in the temple?” I will loudly and proudly proclaim truth. Bottom line.

Next, I think it is important to understand how Mormons understand the “Great Apostasy”.

When? Their position has changed over the years to soften it for converts. And I am not concerned with how they understand, or claim to understand things. I am concerned with truth. That’s it.

 

[Marie5890]

I agree we need to be charitable but…

“But” what?

 

[rmcmullan]

You know what, I think this thread has become very important as it is discussing the purpose of this forum. I have been posting here off and on for a few years and I must admit at first I was surprised at how, uh, not sure how to put this, maybe worked up some people are. It didn’t seem like the friendly discussion about religion that I had anticipated.

Over time I saw that the most worked up people, almost without an exception, were former LDS. It’s not that they were wise apologist for Catholicism. I don’t think Catholicism needs an apology anyway. It’s just that they really seemed to be exorcising some inner demons. And I’m okay with that, you all have a right to post here, but usually their arguments were more tirades and insults than something they thought about and wanted help thinking through.

There’s been a lot of posters I’ve seen come and go. Many of the LDS posters that frequently appear I don’t see any more. I’m not surprised. I guess I’m just thick skinned though and I’m sort of glad I stuck with it, I learned a lot about the Catholic church and what you all believe. Things I should have known having attended Catholic schools when I was a young 'un. The problem I’m having is that in order to get at all the great nuggets of learning, I spend a lot of time dodging sniper fire. One of my favourite threads from long ago was a great discussion on the Trinity vs. the Godhead. I was surprised when it was all over to see how similar our beliefs really are. Some very knowledgeable people weighed in on that one. But there was a lot of angry people too that seemed upset that our views were so close.

So what am I saying? Just this: the Catholic forums is a poor place to do missionary work or to hope to turn anyone in any direction. Most of us come here because we have a strong faith in Christ and are usually fairly firm in our particular faith. SO let’s just stick to what it says at the forum header, to compare and contrast.

 

[Stephen168]

SO let’s just stick to what it says at the forum header, to compare and contrast.

That would be nice but Mormons seem to want to talk about anything but the subject of the thread. If you truly wanted to compare and contrast you would answer questions. Questions are not “sniper fire” and the answers are not “ammunition.” If you thought Mormonism was true, you would be able to easily explain and defend it.

 

[Marie5890]

It’s just that they really seemed to be exorcising some inner demons.

In some ways you are right. Many former Mormons do need to go thru a process of healing and exorcising “inner demons”…

Leaving Mormonism can be extremely traumatizing for those who gave everything they had to it. Many of them lose their marriages, and up estranged from their children, are outcasts from other members of their families and friends etc.

The pain and wounds inflicted are very real.

But all that aside, all those feelings and pains and demons, doesnt alter the reality of the problems with Mormonism history and doctrine. Those are based on reason and facts, not feelings.

The real Mormon history convicts itself as being false, as the BoM is not what the LDS church claims it to be, that Smith was no prophet.

All the feelings and wounds in the world doesnt lessen the facts of Mormonism

 

[Marie5890]

That would be nice but Mormons seem to want to talk about anything but the subject of the thread. If you truly wanted to compare and contrast you would answer questions. Questions are not “sniper fire” and the answers are not “ammunition.” If you thought Mormonism was true, you would be able to easily explain and defend it.

Exactly.

Real discussions on real topics of factual information. Real answers.

Dismissing former Mormons simply because they have been hurt for a variety of reasons doesnt change the problems posed by Mormonism own history etc.

It’s just a way of changing the focus off the hard core issues at hand.
And it’s a weak way out of an intelligent discussion

 

[RebeccaJ]

So what am I saying? Just this: the Catholic forums is a poor place to do missionary work or to hope to turn anyone in any direction. Most of us come here because we have a strong faith in Christ and are usually fairly firm in our particular faith. SO let’s just stick to what it says at the forum header, to compare and contrast.

Many LDS who come here are blatantly doing missionary work. While I think they would like a place where they can present Mormonism without interference of the sort that sheds light on what the LDS church teaches, has taught, and actually is, it just ain’t gonna happen!

Even here, you are complaining about the “contrast” aspect. I’m sorry, but the Mormon godhead is nothing, and I mean NOTHING, like the Holy Trinity. That you continue to hold to this idea says that you aren’t really paying attention at all.

 

[TexanKnight]

You know what, I think this thread has become very important as it is discussing the purpose of this forum. I have been posting here off and on for a few years and I must admit at first I was surprised at how, uh, not sure how to put this, maybe worked up some people are. It didn’t seem like the friendly discussion about religion that I had anticipated.

Your problem is, you find it unfriendly because we post truth about your church and its founder. It is very hard to face hard truth. I know because I was LDS. I see no disrespect here. I see people post truth that you dislike and can;t defend. Marie opened up the door on her idea of charity and you jumped on it in another attempt to avoid the topic

Over time I saw that the most worked up people, almost without an exception, were former LDS. It’s not that they were wise apologist for Catholicism. I don’t think Catholicism needs an apology anyway. It’s just that they really seemed to be exorcising some inner demons. And I’m okay with that, you all have a right to post here, but usually their arguments were more tirades and insults than something they thought about and wanted help thinking through.

Ah…another typical LDS dodge. If any former LDS speak, they are “worked up” and getting rid of demons. That is just sad. I, for one, have no demons, nor am I worked up. Speaking truth does not require me to get worked up. I see no one “worked up”. I see people posting truth that you have no answers for.

There’s been a lot of posters I’ve seen come and go. Many of the LDS posters that frequently appear I don’t see any more. I’m not surprised. I guess I’m just thick skinned though and I’m sort of glad I stuck with it, I learned a lot about the Catholic church and what you all believe.

Most get banned because they get rude when all else has failed.

The problem I’m having is that in order to get at all the great nuggets of learning, I spend a lot of time dodging sniper fire.

You call truth sniper fire? How odd

One of my favourite threads from long ago was a great discussion on the Trinity vs. the Godhead. I was surprised when it was all over to see how similar our beliefs really are. Some very knowledgeable people weighed in on that one. But there was a lot of angry people too that seemed upset that our views were so close.

lol…another shot at “angry”? I saw no anger. I saw people posting truth you could not counter. So, instead, you call people angry.

So what am I saying? Just this: the Catholic forums is a poor place to do missionary work or to hope to turn anyone in any direction. Most of us come here because we have a strong faith in Christ and are usually fairly firm in our particular faith. SO let’s just stick to what it says at the forum header, to compare and contrast.

Which we do. We contrast…WITH PROOF, all the time. You dodge, run, use red herrings, and call people angry…you never get around to actually responding. For example, this thread has 268 responses without a single answer from you, despite several posts.

 

[JHow]

I like reading the ex-Morman posters because they usually get straight to the point. I don’t find them any more argumentative than posters on the “guitar mass” or “Harry potter” threads. What demons are the anti-folk music people exercising one wonders? Were they tortured with one too many Harry Lauder records in their childhood?

 

[RebeccaJ]

I like reading the ex-Morman posters because they usually get straight to the point. I don’t find them any more argumentative than posters on the “guitar mass” or “Harry potter” threads. What demons are the anti-folk music people exercising one wonders? Were they tortured with one too many Harry Lauder records in their childhood?

Saturday’s Warrior is my inner demon. who are these children coming down, coming down…

Mormons seem to ignore the posts where it has been stated by several former LDS…we do have fond memories of being LDS.

 

[Stephen168]

Exactly.

Real discussions on real topics of factual information. Real answers.

Dismissing former Mormons simply because they have been hurt for a variety of reasons doesnt change the problems posed by Mormonism own history etc.

It’s just a way of changing the focus off the hard core issues at hand.
And it’s a weak way out of an intelligent discussion

What I find to be sad is that someone claims to leave the Eucharist for bread and water because of they believe the Book of Mormon is true. And they can not provide one post with ANY support for this life (and after life) changing decision.

The more I see this kind of action the more bizarre Mormonism seems.

 

[Marie5890]

What I find to be sad is that someone claims to leave the Eucharist for bread and water because of they believe the Book of Mormon is true. And they can not provide one post with ANY support for this life (and after life) changing decision.

The more I see this kind of action the more bizarre Mormonism seems.

You have to remember Stephen that Mormons are not encouraged to use reason as part of their discernment process.

It’s strictly based on emotions and feelings.

What is dangerous about that is that I can watch “Bambi” and have an emotional reaction. I can have a glass of wine and get certain “feelings”.

It’s dangerous when people are not encouraged to use their intellect and ability to reason as well as faith while seeking truth.

Our ability to reason is in part what makes us created in the “image and likeness of God”.

To ignore those abilities, to dismiss that gift of God, is to turn away from that which makes us different from all other creatures, what makes us unique in God’s eyes. And He loves all of creation, all of creation comes from His Love, not just humans, but we are unique in that part of His creation.

 

[Stephen168]

You have to remember Stephen that Mormons are not encouraged to use reason as part of their discernment process.

It’s strictly based on emotions and feelings.

What is dangerous about that is that I can watch “Bambi” and have an emotional reaction. I can have a glass of wine and get certain “feelings”.

It’s dangerous when people are not encouraged to use their intellect and ability to reason as well as faith while seeking truth.

Our ability to reason is in part what makes us created in the “image and likeness of God”.

To ignore those abilities, to dismiss that gift of God, is to turn away from that which makes us different from all other creatures, what makes us unique in God’s eyes. And He loves all of creation, all of creation comes from His Love, not just humans, but we are unique in that part of His creation.

So they reject what differentiates us from the animals. Yes very dangerous indeed.

 

[Marie5890]

So they reject what differentiates us from the animals. Yes very dangerous indeed.

I wouldnt say they reject it straight out.

It’s just not used to determine and discern spiritual realities. It holds no weight for them.

The seek a “spiritual experience” to “give them a testimony”. Whether that is a burning in the bosom or some other “spiritual experience”

But intellect and reason are not part of that spiritual experience. Infact, “doubting” is considering a sign of the adversary.

Doubting is considered a bad thing.

(at least that is the way it was back in the 80’s and 90’s. I cant speak for what it’s like now. I’ve seen enough changes or denials of what was accepted as doctrine back than to know LDS beliefs shift according to…well, according to whatever…)

 

[RebeccaJ]

It was refreshing for me to discover that doubt meant you are seeking, and seeking is a Good Thing.

I don’t trust anyone who says they never have doubts. seriously. Just says to me they aren’t thinking, and questioning, just being a willing receptacle. Scary!

 

[Marie5890]

It was refreshing for me to discover that doubt meant you are seeking, and seeking is a Good Thing.

I don’t trust anyone who says they never have doubts. seriously. Just says to me they aren’t thinking, and questioning, just being a willing receptacle. Scary!

AMEN!!!

 

[rmcmullan]

What I find to be sad is that someone claims to leave the Eucharist for bread and water because of they believe the Book of Mormon is true. And they can not provide one post with ANY support for this life (and after life) changing decision.

The more I see this kind of action the more bizarre Mormonism seems.

I’m supposed to do what? Prove to you the BoM’s divinity? Isn’t that your job?

 

[Stephen168]

I’m supposed to do what? Prove to you the BoM’s divinity?

Answer the Op’s questions.

Isn’t that your job?

no. See Post 252.

That would be nice but Mormons seem to want to talk about anything but the subject of the thread. If you truly wanted to compare and contrast you would answer questions. Questions are not “sniper fire” and the answers are not “ammunition.” If you thought Mormonism was true, you would be able to easily explain and defend it.