The Book of Mormon

[brotherhrolf]

brotherhrolf, I’m afraid you’re not going to have any luck reasoning with Zerinus. He is dyed-in-the-wool.

These cultists are not swayed by arguments from history. They will cherry-pick various historical items that appear to support their theories, but, a comprehensive view of history is beyond them. I’m sure that this is no accident. For, if anyone truly becomes aware of history, then they can stop being a member of the cult. There is a saying, that, to know history is to become Catholic.

I don’t claim to be an historian, but I’m fairly well-read, enough so that there are no mysteries for me as regards the truth of Christianity in general, and Catholicism in particular. When discussing religion with Protestants, it has almost always seemed to me that they are pretty ignorant of anything pre-16th century. Mormons are no different. They start with their presuppositions, and mold historical “facts” to fit those.

Mormons and other cultists ignore history, preferring to overlay their burning bosoms upon pesky facts. This is why Zerinus will ignore your arguments regarding the attestation of Christian faith from the historical record. He will always question YOUR own faith, because, for him (them) there ARE no facts apart from the burning bosom. He wants to know how you know anything is true, and is not interested in historical evidence. For him, all evidence emerges only from the burning bosom. Everything else is just a distraction.

I believe you are quite correct in this. But his 7,000 year old date for the creation of the world is off by a thousand years. It is a well known fact that Creation occurred at sunset on Sunday, October 23, 4004 BC - so sayeth Anglican Archbishop Ussher when he was Primate of Ireland back in the 1600s. Of course this implies that light had been created before light was created since creation began at sunset.

I am, of course, firmly a theistic evolutionist. I see the hand of God throughout history and throughout time. I also believe that God gave us brains to think and reason. We dimly perceive the majesty of His Creation and in discovering how He works is another way to “leave all things we have and come and follow Me”.

So if ancient Israelites are the ancestors of today’s Native Americans and the BOM says there was steel, iron, donkeys, cows, oxen, chariots, pigs, wheat, and horses in the New World where is the evidence. The simple answer is that none of this existed in any kinds of numbers until 1492 (acknowledging the Norse presence in 1000 and possibly an expedition by St. Brendan the Navigator 500 years earlier).

Or the fact that DNA shows the Native Americans to be of Asian origins not Semitic.

 

[truthsilence]

I will answer the question as to how I know the Bible is the Word of God. I’ve actually asked myself this question and the answer is that, it is truly by the Grace of God, and the witness of his Holy Spirit. But its even more than that.

As has been pointed out, its not a stretch to believe in the testimonies contained in the Bible, because we do have have some archaeological evidence to back up their claims. In other words, it doesn’t go against *reason *to believe them. Add to that, Jesus’ promises about His church; add to that, the witness of all the Saints, and it just keeps getting better, more amazing and wonderful. All Glory be to God.

It is also by Grace that I came to believe in Jesus Christ as Savior of the world. Seventeen years ago, my sister-in-law “witnessed” to me, and I was never the same after that. I knew he was my Savior. Then, after a scarey experience in a non denom church, I returned to the church I was baptised in at age eight; and there I stayed for fifteen years. I read the BOM, I asked God to give me a witness of its truthfulness. I read the BOM with an open heart, always, hoping that it was true and that someday I would receive a witness so that I would never have to question it. God never granted that witness. I believe it was because I also asked for his protection that I would not be deceived. God never left me; instead, he lovingly led me to the truth. Literally, through the whispering of His Holy Spirit, he led me home to the Catholic Church. This is my testimony and I leave it with you in love and peace.

Tami

 

[Allweather]

I will answer the question as to how I know the Bible is the Word of God. I’ve actually asked myself this question and the answer is that, it is truly by the Grace of God, and the witness of his Holy Spirit. But its even more than that. Tami

Great testimony, Tami. Thank you.

 

[Allweather]

I am, of course, firmly a theistic evolutionist. I see the hand of God throughout history and throughout time. I also believe that God gave us brains to think and reason. We dimly perceive the majesty of His Creation and in discovering how He works is another way to “leave all things we have and come and follow Me”

Me, too. I’m presently re-reading a book by Max I. Dimont, The Indestructible Jews. To me, (and certainly to Mr. Dimont, who has written other books on this subject) to look at the history of the Jews, as well as the history of the Catholic Church, is to see the hand of God at work in human history. One doesn’t have to be a scholar, or have an enormous brain to see it.

 

[zerinus]

I will answer the question as to how I know the Bible is the Word of God. I’ve actually asked myself this question and the answer is that, it is truly by the Grace of God, and the witness of his Holy Spirit. But its even more than that.

As has been pointed out, its not a stretch to believe in the testimonies contained in the Bible, because we do have have some archaeological evidence to back up their claims. In other words, it doesn’t go against reason to believe them. Add to that, Jesus’ promises about His church; add to that, the witness of all the Saints, and it just keeps getting better, more amazing and wonderful. All Glory be to God.

Good, I am glad to hear it! I hope you will now let me in on your great secret. So tell me, what archaeological evidence do you have that Jesus was the Son of God, performed miracles, was born of a virgin, was resurrected after His death, and ascended to heaven?

What archaeological evidence do you have that Elijah was a prophet, communicated with God, and called down fire from heaven and destroyed his enemies?

What is your archaeological proof that Moses talked with God, plagued all the land of Egypt, and drowned Pharaoh and all his army in the waters of the Red Sea?

What is your archaeological evidence that he led the Children of Israel for 40 years in the Sinai desert and fed them with Manna from heaven? What is your evidence that the Isralites had ever lived in Egypt at all?

What is you evidence that a universal flood ever occurred, and all mankind descended from Noah during the past approximately 4,000 years?

I read the BOM, I asked God to give me a witness of its truthfulness. I read the BOM with an open heart, always, hoping that it was true and that someday I would receive a witness so that I would never have to question it. God never granted that witness.

Just because you have had a negative result from that, it does not prove that other peoples’ positive experiences cannot be genuine.

I believe it was because I also asked for his protection that I would not be deceived.

I am inclined to think that it was for a different reason.

God never left me; instead, he lovingly led me to the truth. Literally, through the whispering of His Holy Spirit, he led me home to the Catholic Church. This is my testimony and I leave it with you in love and peace.

I think that you have been deceived.

zerinus

 

[Allweather]

Just because you have had a negative result from that, it does not prove that other peoples’ positive experiences cannot be genuine. zerinus

Here’s a story from personal experience that relates to this sort of thing. I once belonged to a Pentecostal church. I was immersion baptized into that church. Water baptism isn’t enough for them. One must also have what they term the “baptism of the Holy Ghost” of which the only valid sign is speaking in tongues. Almost always, the BHG follows the water baptism by some period of time, usually days or weeks, sometimes much longer. For me, it was much longer. I prayed and prayed and prayed for it, expecting to be struck as if by lightning, and slain in the Spirit, speaking involuntarily in tongues. The absense of this “experience” became a problem for me, and I began to worry about it. Finally, one evening, I faked it. Later on, I encountered other people who told me they also had faked it, for the same reason.

So it is, without question, with the burning bosom. When people must belong, they will do and say anything to accomplish that goal. A burning bosom is nowhere NEAR as hard to fake as a burst of glossalalia, I assure you, LOL>

FWIW I don’t believe very many people actually fake the burning bosom. After all, burning bosoms are a daily experience of pretty much anyone truthfully seeking the Lord. The real question, for me, is whether the burning signifies anything beyond goosebumps and a runny nose. Certainly it cannot be depended upon to confirm doctrinal questions. For that, the brain must be in gear.

 

[Atreyu]

Zerinus,

Like Augustine of Hippo, I would not believe in the holy Scriptures if not for the authority of the Catholic Church. So, as someone else mentioned, the correct question for me is not “why do you believe in the Bible?”, but “why do you believe in the authority of the Catholic Church?”

I believe in the authority of the Catholic Church because of the witness of the earliest Christians. Take all of the New Testament books, along with all of the writings of the early Church fathers, along with all of the apocryphal writings of groups such as the Gnostics. From all of these writings, so long as we can reliably say that they were written at the time they were written by people who believed what they were writing was true, then we can determine certain things. We can determine that Christ was crucified, died and was buried. We can determine that he then rose from the dead. We can determine that he established a Church here on Earth and then promised that Church several things. Specifically, he promised to Simon Peter that the Church Jesus would build on Peter would never fail. We can determine that there were other, heretical groups (the Gnostics) that were writing at the same time but were essentially wrong for various reasons, and this has continued throughout all of history.

I have really only scratched the surface of the arguments for the authority of the Catholic Church, and you could raise an objection to every single statement that I have made. That is ok, but each of these objections should be discussed in its own thread. For the purpose of this thread, I just want to discuss one argument for the authority of the Catholic Church, as follows:

1. 
   *]We can reliably say that the apostles and the earliest Christians (such as Ignatius of Antioch, disciple of the apostle John) believed that Jesus died and was resurrected from the dead.
   *]We can also reliably say that many of these people (specifically, the apostles) were eye-witnesses to these events.
   *]Furthermore, we can reliably say that these very same people suffered horrible tortures and deaths, never renouncing their beliefs in Jesus.
   
   If what I have said is true, then we can conclude that Jesus really was resurrected. Why would people stubbornly be tortured and put to death for something they didn’t even believe in?
   
   Now, you won’t find a reasonable historian that will reject any of the three points I have listed: these are matters of the historical record. None of my arguments rely on the inspiration of Scripture, they only rely on historical evidence, and the historical evidence is clearly in my favour.
   
   Now, if Jesus died and was resurrected, then we can examine the other claims that he made, and study the promises that he made. It is a study of these promises that demonstrates the authority of the Catholic Church. Therefore, we can conclude that the holy Bible is the inspired word of God precisely because the Catholic Church tells us so.
   
   By the way, many of the Old Testament stories are not necessarily literally historical and are more likely allegories. It is much more important to study their theological truths than determine their historical validity. Who cares if there really was a world-wide flood - it doesn’t affect my faith one way or another! What is more important is the theological truth contained in this story: that outside of the Ark, there is no salvation (and, the Ark is the Church - again, this is a topic for another thread).

 

[truthsilence]

Zerinus,

By the tone of your post I’m pretty sure you weren’t “glad to hear” any of what I wrote.

Quote:
I read the BOM, I asked God to give me a witness of its truthfulness. I read the BOM with an open heart, always, hoping that it was true and that someday I would receive a witness so that I would never have to question it. God never granted that witness.

Just because you have had a negative result from that, it does not prove that other peoples’ positive experiences cannot be genuine.

Did I say that? No, I don’t believe I did!

I am inclined to think that it was for a different reason.

Please tell me, what reason you think that would be? I did exactly what I was told to do! God answered me! He just didn’t give me the answer you think he should have!

Quote:
God never left me; instead, he lovingly led me to the truth. Literally, through the whispering of His Holy Spirit, he led me home to the Catholic Church. This is my testimony and I leave it with you in love and peace.

I think that you have been deceived.

Zerinus, what matters to me is what God thinks. I place my trust and faith in him alone. (and thus to the authority of His true church, to which I was guided)

I pray for you. I say that with all sincerity.

Tami

 

[truthsilence]

Great testimony, Tami. Thank you.

Thanks, Allweather.

God bless.

 

[truthsilence]

Atreyu,

Excellent post. Thank you!

 

[truthsilence]

Allweather, by the way, what the heck is glossalalia?!

 

[Montie_Claunch]

Allweather, by the way, what the heck is glossalalia?!

Speaking in tongues.

 

[truthsilence]

Speaking in tongues.

Ahhh. Thank you, Montie.

 

[PaulDupre]

Glossalalia is the medical/neurological term for the sometimes religious experience of speaking in an unknown tongue. It also occurs spontaneously among schizophrenics who are not religious. I have always been suspicious of those who speak in unknown tongues.

I have personally experienced speaking in foreign tongues (real languages) when witnessing about Jesus to non-English-speaking people. I think that is the real “speaking in tongues”, not the gibberish I have heard from Pentecostals.

Paul

 

[truthsilence]

“Glossalalia” was part of the “scarey experience” at the non denom church I mentioned earlier. There were three people speaking “jibberish” while praying over me. None of it made any sense. Needless to say, I never went back to that church!

 

[zerinus]

By the tone of your post I’m pretty sure you weren’t “glad to hear” any of what I wrote.

If you have a genuine conviction that the Bible is the word of God, of course I am glad to hear it. Too bad you didn’t address any of my questions though. In your earlier post you had said:

As has been pointed out, its not a stretch to believe in the testimonies contained in the Bible, because we do have have some archaeological evidence to back up their claims.

So what “archaeological evidence” do you have to back up all the most fundamental claims I had enumerated in my post? The most important “claims,” as far as religion is concerned, is not whether Jesus as a historical figure existed or not (and some have even tried to question that), but whether He was the Son of God or not; whether He was resurrected and ascended to heaven etc. or not. It is not whether Moses really existed or not (and some may even doubt that), but whether he did all the amazing things attributed to him or not. That is what makes religion. What archaeological evidence do you have that even remotely supports any of these fundamental claims?

Did I say that? No, I don’t believe I did!

You implied it.

Please tell me, what reason you think that would be?

I have no idea, God knows. All I know is that the Book of Mormon is true.

I did exactly what I was told to do! God answered me! He just didn’t give me the answer you think he should have!

I think the more correct explanation is that God didn’t answer you at all. I have no idea why. He has His own reasons for when to answer and when not to answer someone. But the problem is never with Him, but always with the one who is doing the asking.

Zerinus, what matters to me is what God thinks.

Good, I am glad to hear it. I hope you have correctly determined what God thinks.

I place my trust and faith in him alone.

I hope you do, but I doubt it. If you did, you wouldn’t have ended up where you are now.

zerinus

 

[JonathanKinsman]

I hope you do, but I doubt it. If you did, you wouldn’t have ended up where you are now.

zerinus

Zerinus, this is INSULTING and uncharitable. How dare you accuse truthsilence of not trusting in God as if you have PERSONAL knowledge of his/her innermost heart and soul.

You are constantly overstepping the line of courtesy and kindness, you need to follow the Forum rules and show a little common courtesy in your arguments and discussion.

Pax Christi

 

[truthsilence]

Originally Posted by zerinus:
If you have a genuine conviction that the Bible is the word of God, of course I am glad to hear it.

Well, ok then. If you say so. I’m supposed to take your word about a lot of things. Forgive me if I’m just a wee bit skeptical!

Too bad you didn’t address any of my questions though. In your earlier post you had said:

As has been pointed out, its not a stretch to believe in the testimonies contained in the Bible, because we do have have some archaeological evidence to back up their claims.

Well, Zerinus I’ve been following a number of threads here at Catholic Answers, and I am very aware that your questions have been addressed by others on this forum who, I believe, have answered them quite well. Better than I could, for sure. I personally trust the testimonies contained in the Bible because I have received a witness by the grace of God, that they are true. You understand that part, right?

So what “archaeological evidence” do you have to back up all the most fundamental claims I had enumerated in my post? The most important “claims,” as far as religion is concerned, is not whether Jesus as a historical figure existed or not (and some have even tried to question that), but whether He was the Son of God or not; whether He etc. or not. It is not whether Moses really existed or not (and some may even doubt that), but whether he did all the amazing things attributed to him or not. That is what makes religion. What archaeological evidence do you have that even remotely supports any of these fundamental claims?

Ok, I think I understand what you’re asking of me. I can’t prove their claims about Jesus, but at least I know that the people who made those claims, actually existed! There is verifiable evidence for many of the accounts about people and places in the Bible. Are you here to argue that as well?

It’s quite a stretch to believe in the claims of the BOM, when, 1) I don’t have the witness of God that it is his word, 2) there is absolutely zero evidence that the people who supposedly wrote the BOM even existed, 3) the evidence we do have (DNA) actually goes against the claims of the BOM. So it was quite a stretch, but for fifteen years I chose to believe it anyway, because I desperately wanted it to be true. It was only when I finally allowed myself to ask God: “what if it isn’t?” that he was able to reach me, with an answer. The answer he was trying to give me all along.

Quote:
Did I say that? No, I don’t believe I did!
You implied it.

You know what? I don’t claim to know why you are where you are, in your faith journey. God uses whatever means possible to lead people to him. I really believe my time in the LDS church served a purpose in my journey. Maybe just by being here at Catholic Answers, you will eventually become Catholic! Of course I hope so!

Quote:
Please tell me, what reason you think that would be?
I have no idea, God knows. All I know is that the Book of Mormon is true.

I gave my experience. You keep telling everyone here that if we will read the BOM and pray about it, we will all know it is true. I did. It isn’t. I don’t know why you think your answer is the correct answer and mine is the incorrect answer!

Quote:
I did exactly what I was told to do! God answered me! He just didn’t give me the answer you think he should have!
I think the more correct explanation is that God didn’t answer you at all. I have no idea why. He has His own reasons for when to answer and when not to answer someone. But the problem is never with Him, but always with the one who is doing the asking.

Oh, this is rich. “Moroni’s” promise is: if you read the BOM with full intent, and pray to God to know the truthfulness of it, you will know by his power that the book is true. Well, I did that not only once, but many, many, many times, over a period of fifteen years! And now because you learn that I never received the “yes” answer, you have the gall to say I didn’t get an answer at all? Is this what you tell everyone when they don’t get the same answer as you? Wow, you’d make a great missionary.

Quote:
Zerinus, what matters to me is what God thinks.
Good, I am glad to hear it. I hope you have correctly determined what God thinks.

I only know what God has done in my life. He has led me home. I am in awe of God, and what He has done in my life.

Quote:
I place my trust and faith in him alone.
I hope you do, but I doubt it. If you did, you wouldn’t have ended up where you are now.

I know in Whom I have trusted. I would never take your word over God’s, about “where I have ended up”. I hope you can understand at least that much.

God bless you on your journey, Zerinus.

 

[Allweather]

“Glossalalia” was part of the “scarey experience” at the non denom church I mentioned earlier. There were three people speaking “jibberish” while praying over me. None of it made any sense. Needless to say, I never went back to that church!

I’ve seen lots of that, some of it among Catholics, even.

They don’t get the name “holy roller” for nothing. Man, I’ve seen some real displays of people on the floor, slobbering, completely out of control.

As for tongues, I still pray in tongues, most commonly when I’m in a situation, such as at Mass, when it is appropriate to pray for various things, but I can’t necessarily think of anything at the moment. I still believe that pentecostal thing that the Holy Spirit knows what we should be praying for, and intercedes with and for us, making the deepest prayers of our hearts known to God. This is where I will sometimes pray in “tongues” though only in thought, not in actual spoken words. I believe there is Scriptural basis for this, and when I’m doing it I often have the distinct feeling that important prayers are going forth, even though I may not be conscious of what they are.

That’s a little off-topic, except that Mormons also believe in tongues, do they not? Does this come from the BoM? Seems to me I’ve read accounts of tongues taking place within Mormon gatherings during Joseph Smith’s lifetime, and that tongues is mentioned in one of the JS articles of faith.

 

[christianley]

How did the Book of Mormon come about and what are the apologetical reasons that The Chruch of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints give to say that we should accept it as scripture?

Everything you really need to know about the Book of Mormon can be found here:

irr.org/MIT/bompage.html

I’m afraid the Book of Mormon just does not have the evidence it needs to support the story of Joseph Smith. It is fortunate that we can now say conclusively based on 177 years of research that the Book of Mormon is unreliable as scripture. Praying about it is unnecessary when there is so much evidence contradicting its story. We can follow Jesus in the church he established, the Catholic Church, or we can drift off after some fly by night “prophet.” I know I can trust the Church that Jesus established when he was alive rather than go searching for some church that began over 1800 years after Christ’s death and resurrection.

It’s about as likely that space aliens settled the earth as it is to believe that Native Americans are descendents of Hebrews. But then again, if you believe what the Mormons believe, maybe Adam and Eve could be called space aliens.