The Book of Mormon

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Peace and God’s blessings to all of you here at Catholic Answers.

Since this will be my first Lenten season as a Catholic, I’m beginning my preparations early. I plan to devote the season to personal prayer and deeper reflection; and what our Lord might ask of me, in service to him. Consequently, I won’t be responding on this forum for a while. At least that is my intent. 🙂

Please pray for me. I will be praying for all of you.

Peace,
Tami
+*Ecce Agnus Dei, ecce qui tollit peccata mundi *.

This is the most special time of the year to be a Catholic. I hope you can partake in the ’ Holy Triduum’, starting on Holy Thursday night with the ‘Mass of the Lords Supper’. And if available, “Stations of the Cross” done on Fridays during lent is very rewarding. God Bless!
 
So tell me, what archaeological evidence do you have that Jesus was the Son of God, performed miracles, was born of a virgin, was resurrected after His death, and ascended to heaven?
From Proving Inspiration:
An Accurate Text

Sir Frederic Kenyon, in The Story of the Bible, notes that “For all the works of classical antiquity we have to depend on manuscripts written long after their original composition. The author who is the best case in this respect is Virgil, yet the earliest manuscript of Virgil that we now possess was written some 350 years after his death. For all other classical writers, the interval between the date of the author and the earliest extant manuscript of his works is much greater. For Livy it is about 500 years, for Horace 900, for most of Plato 1,300, for Euripides 1,600.” Yet no one seriously disputes that we have accurate copies of the works of these writers. However, in the case of the New Testament we have parts of manuscripts dating from the first and early second centuries, only a few decades after the works were penned.

Not only are the biblical manuscripts that we have older than those for classical authors, we have in sheer numbers far more manuscripts from which to work. Some are whole books of the Bible, others fragments of just a few words, but there are literally thousands of manuscripts in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Coptic, Syriac, and other languages. This means that we can be sure we have an authentic text, and we can work from it with confidence.

The Bible as Historical Truth

Next we take a look at what the Bible, considered merely as a history, tells us, focusing particularly on the New Testament, and more specifically the Gospels. We examine the account contained therein of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.

Using what is in the Gospels themselves and what we find in extra-biblical writings from the early centuries, together with what we know of human nature (and what we can otherwise, from natural reason alone, know of divine nature), we conclude that either Jesus was just what he claimed to be—God—or he was crazy. (The one thing we know he could not have been was merely a good man who was not God, since no merely good man would make the claims he made.)

We are able to eliminate the possibility of his being a madman not just from what he said but from what his followers did after his death. Many critics of the Gospel accounts of the resurrection claim that Christ did not truly rise, that his followers took his body from the tomb and then proclaimed him risen from the dead. According to these critics, the resurrection was nothing more than a hoax. Devising a hoax to glorify a friend and mentor is one thing, but you do not find people dying for a hoax, at least not one from which they derive no benefit. Certainly if Christ had not risen his disciples would not have died horrible deaths affirming the reality and truth of the resurrection. The result of this line of reasoning is that we must conclude that Jesus indeed rose from the dead. Consequently, his claims concerning himself—including his claim to be God—have credibility. He meant what he said and did what he said he would do.

Further, Christ said he would found a Church. Both the Bible (still taken as *merely a historical *book, not yet as an inspired one) and other ancient works attest to the fact that Christ established a Church with the rudiments of what we see in the Catholic Church today—papacy, hierarchy, priesthood, sacraments, and teaching authority.

We have thus taken the material and purely historically concluded that Jesus founded the Catholic Church. Because of his Resurrection we have reason to take seriously his claims concerning the Church, including its authority to teach in his name.

This Catholic Church tells us the Bible is inspired, and we can take the Church’s word for it precisely because the Church is infallible. Only after having been told by a properly constituted authority—that is, one established by God to assure us of the truth concerning matters of faith—that the Bible is inspired can we reasonably begin to use it as an inspired book.



The advantages of the Catholic approach are two: First, the inspiration is really proved, not just “felt.” Second, the main fact behind the proof—the reality of an infallible, teaching Church—leads one naturally to an answer to the problem that troubled the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:30-31): How is one to know which interpretations are correct? The same Church that authenticates the Bible, that attests to its inspiration, is the authority established by Christ to interpret his word.
Hope this helps!
 
Zerinus, this sounds like it applies more to yourself, than it does to me. We are warned over and over in the Bible to take care that we are not deceived. What better way to not be deceived, than to ask for Gods protection?

I was not being double minded. I approached God in humility, hoping to receive the answer I was “promised”. You’re telling me that, because I also asked God to protect me from the devils lies, God chose not to answer me, and instead allowed the devil to? Do you realize how twisted this is Zerinus?

Well, you wanted it to be true, correct? (as did I) You knew what answer you wanted God to give you. You did not ask him to protect you from the devils lies, and now you say you didn’t even pray to receive Gods answer! So perhaps you gave yourself the answer you wanted? Or the devil answered you!

It sounds to me like you’re not even giving God a chance to answer! In approaching God with humility and sincerity, you must be willing to let the answer be no. My heart was “in the right place”, I was obedient to what I was being taught. The only difference between my experience and yours, is that I prayed for God’s protection from the devil, and well,* I actually prayed to God for the answer*! You implied that I approached God the wrong way. You, apparently, didn’t approach Him at all! This is very telling, as to which one of us has been deceived, or “answered by the devil” as you put it.

Do a search on the word “deceive” in the Bible. Jesus was persistent in his teaching about that. Again, what better way to “watch that you be not deceived” than to ask for Gods protection! Do you think you know better than God, what constitutes deceit; and so you don’t even need to ask? Hmmm this is sounding a lot like what the devil promised in the garden. “Ye shall be as Gods knowing good from evil”. Zerinus, GOD determines what is Good, and what is Sin. Not us.

cont…
Thank you for your comments. As I said before, I believe you are sincere in your beliefs, and that is what counts. I am satisfied in my mind that I am right; and you are obviously satisfied in your mind that you are right; and the LDS position on that is to live and let live. I am sure you are familiar with our eleventh article of faith: “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may”. That is where we must leave it I guess. When judgement day comes the right and wrong of everything will be made clear to everyone. In the mean time, I believe that everyone who genuinely endeavours to live according to the best principles of right and wrong that he understands, and doing the will of God according to the principles of the religion that he has accepted, will receive a degree of salvation.

zerinus
 
Thank you for your comments. As I said before, I believe you are sincere in your beliefs, and that is what counts. I am satisfied in my mind that I am right; and you are obviously satisfied in your mind that you are right; and the LDS position on that is to live and let live. I am sure you are familiar with our eleventh article of faith: “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may”. That is where we must leave it I guess. When judgement day comes the right and wrong of everything will be made clear to everyone. In the mean time, I believe that everyone who genuinely endeavours to live according to the best principles of right and wrong that he understands, and doing the will of God according to the principles of the religion that he has accepted, will receive a degree of salvation.

zerinus
Are you kidding me…if it’s "live and let live’, then why do ‘Elders’ come to my door monthly to tell me I’m a lost soul, and smirk when I say I’m Catholic and brow beat? Zernius, this statement of yours really aggravates me, more than any of your other nonsense, because this is exactly the type of double talk I get from the LDS I encounter. All of a sudden, live and let live… yet they pound on doors and try to do everything to not let you ‘live and let live’…and again, I’ll ask a direct question. When was the last time a Catholic knocked on your home door, while you ate dinner and gave you an earful? Tell me. Live and let live, it’s the opposite. You are under direct orders to do the opposite. I understand basic evangelizing, saying what you believe and standing up for yourbeliefs, but approaching people in their homes, trespassing and bothering citizens in a private residence, that’s too much, that’s not live and let live. That’s… get more, more more more more more more at all costs.
 
To me, this is the difference. Some Mormons believe that the ends justifies the means. Whether it is isolating the person who refuses to convert, depriving them of benefits, sabotaging their jobs, taking “scriptures” that the person would agree with, ignoring contradictory “scriptures”, victimizing the person who says anything against LDS, outright lies, malicious gossip, false accusations, harrassing the person who leaves the church, etc, etc. Such strategies are usually just short of illegal. Some people are particularly targeted for such strategies, based on ethnicity.

Generally speaking, Muslims and Catholics and other religions abandoned such tactics long ago. If abandoning such tactics is “apostasy”, then long live apostasy.

Artist, all you need to do is call LDS Church, and tell them that the next time a missionary shows at your door, you will take legal measures to stop the harrassment.
 
That is offensive. :mad: Many of the techniques used in the conversion process were just as henious as those of the worst of Mormons and Muslims. Do you really think Catholics never perpetuated injustices?
I’m not familiar with any “heinous” conversion techniques used by Mormons, and have only heard reports of some used by Muslims. I never said Catholics “never perpetuated injustices.” I said they converted the savages in America. Abuses surely happened here and there. How could they not have, considering the fallen nature of man? Overall, though, the effort was noble, and very effective, as I can tell by observation where I live, being surrounded by “Indian” reservations and living and working alongside these good people.
Have you ever read Bartolome de las Casas?
No, but I will add it to my need-to-read list.
Broaden your perspective, please, and check out the “facts of history” before making statements to that effect.
My perspective is quite broad, thank you, but I’m always working to make it better, broader. I’m not sure what you’re getting at by suggesting that I haven’t got a grip on the “facts of history.” Maybe you could be specific? Don’t worry about insulting me… I’m very thick-skinned, and welcome the criticism.
Perhaps, if you would, you might be able to understand what I believe constitutes the Mormon claim for “apostasy”
I don’t think I misunderstand the Mormon claim for apostasy. I’ve done a fair amount of reading, and have been paying very close attention to these threads. Are you saying that because I may have, according to your appraisal, a weak grip on the “facts of history” that I may not be able to grasp the Mormon apostasy charge against Christianity?
 
To me, this is the difference. Some Mormons believe that the ends justifies the means. Whether it is isolating the person who refuses to convert, depriving them of benefits, sabotaging their jobs, taking “scriptures” that the person would agree with, ignoring contradictory “scriptures”, victimizing the person who says anything against LDS, outright lies, malicious gossip, false accusations, harrassing the person who leaves the church, etc, etc. Such strategies are usually just short of illegal. Some people are particularly targeted for such strategies, based on ethnicity.
Whew! I’m no friend of Mormonism, but I know quite a few, and I have never, ever heard of this kind of thing going on.

Tell me about the targeting “based on ethnicity.” How is this accomplished? I ask because my fiance’s family is all Mexican-American, and I’m wondering what she may be in store for once this persecution starts up. Do the Mormons target Mexicans in a particular manner that would be unique to Mexicans?
 
To the Mormon ear so much of Catholic faith sounds like this:

I believe the Bible, yes I do;
Cuase the professors tell me to.

What appears to be lacking is:

“Blessed art thou, YOUR NAME HERE: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”
 
To the Mormon ear so much of Catholic faith sounds like this:

I believe the Bible, yes I do;
Cuase the professors tell me to.

What appears to be lacking is:

“Blessed art thou, YOUR NAME HERE: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”
I can’t speak for the “Mormon ear” but it seems to me that, if they actually do hear it this way, then they’re rather hard of hearing. Catholics don’t believe the Bible because any professor told them to. They believe it because the Magisterium of the Church teaches it to be worthy of belief. This would be the same Church that Jesus established upon Simon, son of Jonah, as recorded in the verse just following the one you so imperfectly quote above: “And I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.” Mt 16:18 (NAB)

BTW welcome back, IAMLDS.
 
It is the characteristic of all false and apostate religions to claim that the canon of scripture is closed, and there will be no more scripture or revelation from God.

Like Mormonism.
Because they do not have the divine authority to obtain further revelation from the Lord, and add to the canon of scripture themselves, they try to hide their illegitimacy by claiming that it cannot be done at all!
**Why skip over Mohammed and Islam? **

Why ignore those wacky post-1830 sects which claim Everyone Else Got It Wrong ??
 
I can’t speak for the “Mormon ear” but it seems to me that, if they actually do hear it this way, then they’re rather hard of hearing. Catholics don’t believe the Bible because any professor told them to. They believe it because the Magisterium of the Church teaches it to be worthy of belief. . . .
Matthew 23:

16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

Thou blind Pharisee, who grants legitimacy to whom, the word of God to the Magisterium, or the Magisterium to the word of God?

zerinus
 


Thou blind Pharisee, who grants legitimacy to whom, the word of God to the Magisterium, or the Magisterium to the word of God?​
zerinus
Thou goofy Nehi-ite (or Danite or Bobite), whoso dareth to assumeth that this passage speaketh to thy grossly misinformed and misshapened pantheology.

Thou knowest not simple history. Thou thinkest not simple thoughts about Christian Scripture. Thou misappliest any snippet from Saint Matthew’s Gospel to pervert thought to your crooked ways and the forked tongue of the False Prophets of the Great Salt Lake.

Why dost thou hide from directness, O Laminate ? Why changeth thou the direction of this thread and avoidest answering simple questions about that hole-y of hole-ies, The Book of Mormon.

Shame on thee and thine and thy ilk, for they are legion. And it came to pass that believe-it-not Zerinus and his minions finally became Christian and renounced the false idol Joseph Smith and the Angel of the Figment of the Imagination, Moroni.

Miracles happen.

Pax Christi
 
It is the characteristic of all false and apostate religions to claim that the canon of scripture is closed, and there will be no more scripture or revelation from God. Because they do not have the divine authority to obtain further revelation from the Lord, and add to the canon of scripture themselves, they try to hide their illegitimacy by claiming that it cannot be done at all! The Jews say it, the Moslems say it, and Catholics say the same thing. That is an awfully wicked and sinful thing to say, leading astray the rest of mankind, for which there will be heavy punishment in the world to come. The truth, however, is that whenever an old religion has apostatized, God has rectified it by opened up a new dispensation of the gospel through a prophet whom He has raised up for that purpose, and which has always been accompanied by additional scripture and revelation from God; and this dispensation is no different.

zerinus
It is the characteristic of all false -]and apostate/-] religions to claim that the canon of scripture is open, and there will be -]no/-] more scripture or revelation from God. Because they do not have the divine authority to -]obtain/-] know there is no further revelation from the Lord, and not add to the canon of scripture themselves, they try to hide their illegitimacy by claiming that it can be done -]at all!/-] The Mormons say it, -]Jews say it, the Moslems say it, and Catholics say the same thing/-]. That is an awfully wicked and sinful thing to say, leading astray the rest of mankind, for which there will be heavy punishment in the world to come. The truth, however, is that whenever an new religion has appeared, God has helped by sending out His gospel through His disciples whom He has shown His light to for that purpose, and which has always been accompanied by -]additional /-]scripture and revelation from God, recorded in the Holy Bible; -]and this dispensation is no different./-]
kellie
 
Kellie;

Isn’t Zerinus great for defending the Faith! His throws up so many hanging curveballs, I should be passing Hank Aaron’s lifetime home run record in about 45 more posts!

Great job, great sense of humor!

Pax Christi
 
Kellie;

Isn’t Zerinus great for defending the Faith! His throws up so many hanging curveballs, I should be passing Hank Aaron’s lifetime home run record in about 45 more posts!

Great job, great sense of humor!

Pax Christi
lol

I just wanted to point out to him that any argument that he can use against us can be turned around and used against him.

I still have never found out who exactly “apostasised”. Nor how it was done. I have seen zerinus and other Mormons say some Christians stayed true to the church, but the priesthood authority was lost.

I still haven’t been told what the priesthood authority means or how specifically it was lost, even though I have asked it a few times.
 
I can’t speak for the “Mormon ear” but it seems to me that, if they actually do hear it this way, then they’re rather hard of hearing. Catholics don’t believe the Bible because any professor told them to. They believe it because the Magisterium of the Church teaches it to be worthy of belief. This would be the same Church that Jesus established upon Simon, son of Jonah, as recorded in the verse just following the one you so imperfectly quote above: “And I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.” Mt 16:18 (NAB)

BTW welcome back, IAMLDS.
Allweather,

I could also characterize the Catholic ear for the Mormon faith, your fiance will appreciate this:

Just ate un chingo of that green chile stew.
Now my hearts a burning, ears are red too.
Just another confirmation that the Book of Mormon’s true.

Ok, I’ll quit with the bad poetry.
 
Thou blind Pharisee, who grants legitimacy to whom, the word of God to the Magisterium, or the Magisterium to the word of God?

zerinus
I don’t quite follow your argument by means of the Mt 23 citation, but I may just be thick in that. I’m not a Bible expert and don’t pretend to be. Matter of fact, I don’t think you are, either, but you do pretend to be one, and that is typical of the Protestant mentality.

As for who grants legitimacy to whom: It is obvious that God grants legitimacy to the Catholic Church, and that the Church is empowered to carry the word of God to the world, and to do all of that binding and loosing stuff. One of the things the Church did in terms of carrying the word of God to the world was to write the NT, and then, later, to assemble it into a canon, which is now accepted pretty much universally, even by Mormons, and certainly by all good Protestants.
 
Allweather,

I could also characterize the Catholic ear for the Mormon faith, your fiance will appreciate this:

Just ate un chingo of that green chile stew.
Now my hearts a burning, ears are red too.
Just another confirmation that the Book of Mormon’s true.

Ok, I’ll quit with the bad poetry.
Hey, IAMLDS, you know about the green chile… aren’t you in NM? Whereabouts? I live in Albuquerque.

Yeah, you’d better not go into poetry for a living, but at least you gave it a try. I would never have the guts.

I’ll make sure she reads that… she usually does read thru these threads within a day or so of them being put down.

I’ll tell you this, though, IAMLDS, she has some pretty tremendous BITB nowadays as a Catholic. Praying the Rosary, at Blessed Sacrament, at Mass. We are so looking forward to this Lenten season, beginning tomorrow with Ash Wednesday. Too bad Mormons don’t observe Lent. You miss an awful lot. Catholicism is the whole Christian enchilada, so to speak. And it is very tasty! And satisfying!
 
For those of you who are exasperated by Zerinus’ ignorance and tenacity, you must remember that he is posessed by an evil spirit(Mormonism) and is most likely powerless to behave otherwise. I believe that the only effective remedy for him and those like him is an exorcism by a very righteous and powerful priest. Therefore, I think that Father Corapi should be assigned to take on Zerinus’ case. If you all agree, I’ll see if I can get Father Corapi to accept the job.
I recall an uncharitable thought of one person I once knew; that the word Mormon should be rendered without the middle m. However whilst I don’t necessarily share the sentiments (I feel pity for people under the influence of cults) it seems odd that someone would enter a thread and be totally rude to others as if this would endear people to the LDS church.
 
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Jerusha:
Artist, all you need to do is call LDS Church, and tell them that the next time a missionary shows at your door, you will take legal measures to stop the harrassment.
Really, I’ll do that…that’s a good idea. They are only 3/4 mile from me, so I’m on the main ‘campaign trail’. I have the JD’s 1/4 mile the other direction so I get doubled up. I’ll call them, thanks…
 
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