The Book of Mormons and the Bible

[Erich]

Erich say, “Oh, so now I’m bashing your religion when I ask questions you can’t answer?” A lie, I said you bash the Church because you read a statement proving an aspect of the Book of Mormon to be true, but quote it out of context to illustrate it as untrue. This makes you a liar and an adulterer.

Wow, what a resume… basher, liar, adulterer. What else can I add?

So, an aspect of a book (such as the use of an entire phrase such as “and it came to pass” – or the much simpler soph pasuq ( : ) that started to appear in Hebrew text around the year 500 – as a paragraph marker) proves that book to be true? The 1908 version of the book of Alma has 30 chapters, the 1920 has 62. If I were to “find” an “original manuscript” of “2 Alma” on an old piece of parchment, that had “about the right number” of chapters and verses and “it came to pass” markers, would it not have to be pronounced “true” by virtue of those tallies?

As Proving Inspiration states,

Sir Frederic Kenyon, in The Story of the Bible, notes that “For all the works of classical antiquity we have to depend on manuscripts written long after their original composition. The author who is the best case in this respect is Virgil, yet the earliest manuscript of Virgil that we now possess was written some 350 years after his death. For all other classical writers, the interval between the date of the author and the earliest extant manuscript of his works is much greater. For Livy it is about 500 years, for Horace 900, for most of Plato 1,300, for Euripides 1,600.” Yet no one seriously disputes that we have accurate copies of the works of these writers. However, in the case of the New Testament we have parts of manuscripts dating from the first and early second centuries, only a few decades after the works were penned.

Not only are the biblical manuscripts that we have older than those for classical authors, we have in sheer numbers far more manuscripts from which to work. Some are whole books of the Bible, others fragments of just a few words, but there are literally thousands of manuscripts in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Coptic, Syriac, and other languages. This means that we can be sure we have an authentic text, and we can work from it with confidence.

From there, we can take a look at what the Bible, considered merely as a history, tells us. Nelson Glueck, reformed Jewish scholar notes: “It is worth emphasizing that … no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a single, properly understood Biblical statement.” Click here for just a few such statements.

Gardner is able to explain away “it came to pass” to your satisfaction, if not to mine. But how does he (or you) explain the fact that there is no historical proof to support the claim that in the early centuries the Church was Mormon?

From Problems with the Book of Mormon:

How could it be that Christ, who should have known better, would promise that his Church wouldn’t be overcome if he knew full well a great apostasy would make short shrift of it in a matter of decades? Was Christ lying? Obviously not. Was he mistaken? No. Did he miscalculate things? No, again. Christ’s divinity precluded such things.

… As non-Catholic historians admit, it can be demonstrated easily that early Church writers, such as Ignatius of Antioch, Eusebius, Clement of Rome, and Polycarp, had no conception of Mormon doctrine, and they knew nothing of a “great apostasy.”

Nowhere in their writings can one find references to Christians embracing any of the peculiarly Mormon doctrines, such as polytheism, polygamy, celestial marriage, and temple ceremonies. If the Church of the apostolic age was the prototype of today’s Mormon church, it must have had all these beliefs and practices. But why is there no evidence of them in the early centuries, before the alleged apostasy began?

… The Book of Mormon describes a vast pre-Columbian culture that supposedly existed for centuries in North and South America. It goes into amazingly specific detail describing the civilizations erected by the “Nephites” and “Lamanites,” who were Jews that fled Palestine in three installments, built massive cities in the New World, farmed the land, produced works of art, and fought large-scale wars which culminated in the utter destruction of the Nephites in A.D. 421.

… (A)fter the cataclysmic last battle fought between the Nephites and Lamanites, there was no one left to clean up the mess. Hundreds of thousands of men and beasts allegedly perished in that battle, and the ground was strewn with weapons and armor.

… It should be easy to locate and retrieve copious evidence of such a battle, and there hasn’t been enough time for the weapons and armor to turn to dust. The Bible tells of similar battles that have been documented by archaeology, battles which took place long before A.D. 421.

 

[hosemonkey]

So what you have, at the end of the day, is a false religion, founded by a sexually twisted con-man, advanced by deception and sustained by fraud, believed by the gullible and destined for the scrap-heap of history. It may be interseting to debate with the likes of Zenius, but he is in the grip of invincible ignorance and you are wasting your time. Unless there is a miracle of the Holy Spirit, he and those like him will perish in their ignorance.

 

[Montalban]

"Montalban:

a) how has he done this throughout the history of mankind when you believe the Church was Apostate from c.70AD-18 whenever?

History did not begin in 70AD.

You said that the Church became Apostate shortly after Jesus. If you’ve a definite year, you’ve yet to say.
"Montalban:

b) your only proof that your church is a church that does this is your claim that this is so.

Maybe. But at least we make the claim. Orthodox/Catholic/Protestant churches don’t even do that.

That’s not true. The Catholic church claims it’s the only church that’s maintained the proper teaching of Christ.
"Montalban:

How do you know ‘obviously the second’? You have no idea about the Orthodox Church. When I asked you to discuss it (on baptism) you simply said that it’s Apostate. How do you know? You just do. Until you’re serious about discussion over these issues, then few will take YOU seriously. You don’t engage on a single point but instead continue to couch your answers in circular logic and you don’t care beyond this.

I know enough to know that it is obviously the second. You don’t need to be Einstein to figure that out.

From your stated evidence, this is not manifestly so.
"Montalban:

And if you want to study about Orthodox mysticism and the real physical change in the people who practice Hesychasm that’s up to you, but I seriouslya) doubt you’ve even heard of it

True, I hadn’t heard of it. I am not altogether ignorant about mysticism though. I know something about it.

But it goes directly to your claim about no other church having such.
"Montalban:

Again, why obviously? You don’t care, it just is so.

Too obvious. No explanation required.

Then here endeth our discussion. I’ve given you ample opportunity to offer more than your say-so. If you wish to continue spamming the thread with just-so statements, that’s up to you. Obviously you feel that this does your church great justice
If you want to introduce anything more than circular logic, then please do so

 

[zerinus]

You said that the Church became Apostate shortly after Jesus. If you’ve a definite year, you’ve yet to say.

That’s not true. The Catholic church claims it’s the only church that’s maintained the proper teaching of Christ.

From your stated evidence, this is not manifestly so.

But it goes directly to your claim about no other church having such.

Then here endeth our discussion. I’ve given you ample opportunity to offer more than your say-so. If you wish to continue spamming the thread with just-so statements, that’s up to you. Obviously you feel that this does your church great justice
If you want to introduce anything more than circular logic, then please do so

My conclusion after reading your posts is that you are either incapable of understanding ordinary human language (which I doubt), or else you are deliberately trying to obfuscate the discussion in order to hide your utter helplessness at conducting a logical debate (which is more likely). In either case you are right; it is futile to continue with this discussion.

zerinus

 

[truthsilence]

Amen! Eleven years here - a hamster on the treadmill of Mormonism, trying to earn my way to godhood - fulfilling my 4 callings, paying a full tithe plus building fund plus missionary fund plus everything else plus temple attendance plus tithing settlement plus a career plus everything else - praying for a testimony of the BOM or of Joseph Smith or of “please God anything!”. And none of that was voluntary - I was commanded by the “bishop” to do these things at the peril of my temple recommend. What a relief to be finally snuggled in the loving arms of Jesus, who just loves me and frees me and forgives me and leads me gently to the Father. His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

Now I give of my time, talents and resources as I’m moved by the Holy Spirit, not as I’m compelled by a Mormon bishop. I am free to give as much or as little as I feel is appropriate to my parish, my diocese or to other worthy causes as the Spirit prompts me [see Exodus 35:20 and following]. The beauty and the spiritual freedom is thrilling. I am a lector at my parish. My wife (a Filipina) and I contribute to a scholarship fund for seminarians in the Philippines, as well as to the parish and the diocese. The Holy Spirit led me powerfully to the seminarians’ fund several years ago on our yearly vacation in the Philippines. As a Mormon I would never have had the freedom to do anything like this. And my pastor thinks it’s great that I don’t give it all to the local parish, but follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit. The seminarians’ fund has yielded great fruit. Three of “our” seminarians have been ordained and are doing the Lord’s work in Filipino parishes. How cool is that?

God love you, truthsilence!
Paul

Paul, thank you so much. I had the same desperate plea of “please God, anything”, many, many times, so I really understand every word you shared. I also share with you, the joy of being able to determine, as moved by the Holy Spirit how much and to whom I give charitable donations. It is truly wonderful to know that I can support the parish, the diocese, the good samaritan program, along with any other national or international fund, as I am moved. No one knows how much I give, or to whom. It is between me and our Lord. Another thing that feels so much more “right” is that there are no rewards to myself to be expected, for doing so. I always felt there was something really wrong with the “blessings for me”, mentality, which is attached to giving and serving in the LDS church.

The scholarship fund for seminarians in the Philippines sounds like a wonderful thing to be involved in! How that must bless their lives! My husband spent quite a lot of time in the Philippines, during the 80’s. He fell in love with the people there, particularly the children.

Peace to you,
Tami

 

[truthsilence]

hey now… I thought I gave you something to work with and now you seem to be ignoring that to pursue the very path of bashing that you decry. You want testimony? I have studied every mormon prophet from Joseph smith to Gordon Hinkley. I read every LDS scripture… I taught them for years. I tried living my life as if it were all true. I was a veil worker in the temple and served in a bishopric. I prayed daily hoping it was true and wanting it to be true. Something was always missing. I studied Jesus form every angle I could find. History, literature, scripture, theology, tradition. I studied the history of the Jews and their religion as well. I sought understanding prayerfully for years. Finally, the light appeared. slowly and through much effort. I saw a possibility that I might be wrong. I expanded my studies and my prayers. I seized upon the ECF’s, sacred tradition in the Catholic church (roman and orthodox). I found a whole new world in sacred scripture once I saw through these other writings just who these folks were that wrote the various books of the bible. I learned about who they wrote to and why. I learned the historical context that these vents happened in. God the Holy Spirit guided me. God the Father watched over me. God the son…Jesus Christ ransomed me from spiritual death. I came to a thorough knowledge and understanding emotionally, intellectually and spiritually that God founded the Catholic church. He preserved it through all of these years, never abandoning the world. He protected his church through all of the attacks against it both from without and within. evil people have been catholic. evil men have even been priests, bishops and yes…popes. yet in spite of Satan’s best efforts to tempt the leaders, derail the church and denounce the teachings… the Catholic church today teaches the same doctrines as the apostles. in spite of all the terrible things that Satan has thrown at it. God really did build a church that the gates of hell could not prevail against. the sacraments are real. they do convey the grace of God because the catholic priesthood really does act with divine authority handed down by the laying on of hands from Jesus himself to the religious of today in an unbroken line. The church IS one, it IS holy, it IS apostolic and it certainly is CATHOLIC. I testify to the truth of all this in the name of the Father AND the Son AND the Holy Spirit. AMEN!!!

Amen and Amen. It’s so amazing every week at RCIA, to be able to listen to dozens of people from all walks of life, share their journey about how they’ve been drawn to the Catholic church - some, over a period of many years searching, as was the case with yourself, and myself also. Just imagine what might happen if we were out proselytizing door to door. Or even if more Catholics were willing to just talk about their faith. People really hunger and thirst, and most have no idea of the rich and wonderful blessing that is still here, right here, where it has always been.

Thank you for sharing your story.

 

[Kristine1957]

Actually the RLDS (Community of Christ) do publish a 3-in-1 edition of their scriptures, which include the “Inspired Version” of the Bible (Joseph Smith’s Translation), their edition of the Book of Mormon, and their edition of the Doctrine and Covenants…all in one nice little volume.

One can purchase just the (name removed by moderator)ired Version by itself from Herald Publishing House.

AND…In order to provide a Bible that would be the most helpful to their members (so they say) the First Presidency decided to print their own Bible (King James Version) with additional LDS footnotes, dictionary and topical guide.
These cross reference to their other books of scripture and provide LDS explanations.

Peace be with you…

 

[kellie]

Allweather, if you wish to be insulting, so be it.

Kellie-
Actually, we are taught that we are to pray about every prophet. From Adam to Moses to Obadiah to Alma etc… The principle is that even though we may know the Church is true based on one experience. We are taught to pray about every word of scripture, to constantly renew and strengthen the knowledge imparted by God. Please try to be not so obstinate. It does your cause little good to here the same thing over and over and over again and then act as if you never heard it.

The reason I asked about your testimony is because I have recently had an interesting experience. I have attended other church services over the years, and have felt the spirit testify to various truths they taught. However, last week I was listening to Father Carapi discussing repentence and then later the Catholic Answers show discussing a similar subject and felt the spirit so strongly it was amazing. The next day Father Carapi was discussing prayer and being guided by the Spirit when reading scripture. I am sitting there feeling the spirit tug at my heart, I am fighting it. “NO, this is a priest, what does he know about prayer?” Father Carapi then told a story about a Protestant professor who gave his class books on Spirituallity and all were written by Catholics. The protestant professor’s students were complaining about reading catholic books and the professer explained to them that protestant church’s were not spiritual, but the Catholic Church was very much so. Folks, the Spirit was so strong. I (a fairly brawny trucker, ex-sailer with a mouth to match) had tears in my eyes. I am at this sight to see the kind of person Father Carapi wants in the Catholic Church. I want to feel your Testimony and teaching in the Spirit filled environment promised. All I am getting here is hate and vitriol. Frankly, your arguments are so childish as to be completely boring. Tell me of your faith, your experiences. If you wish to use this forum as an opportunity to bash great, go for it. I will find a forum where a Catholic practices his belief of Patience, tolerance and spirituallity.

I did not start this thread to share my testimony, tell of my faith or my experiences.

I started this thread to ask why the Mormons use the KJV, and have never combined both the Bible and BOM.

If you want to hear about a Catholic’s personal testimony and experiences. start your own thread, or do a search on these forums.

My arguments are not childish. I am finding this thread extremely interesting and I am glad it has grown so much.
I am enjoying reading all facets of the debate.

If you consider “bashing” to be pointing out flaws in a belief, and providing evidence of how they are flawed, then yes, accuse me of bashing.

If you find it boring, please leave this thread alone.

 

[kellie]

Alas, stuck in an ice storm.

Some general observations…It is interesting to see the protestant influence on the Catholic psyche, assuming the posters at this thread are representative of the current Catholic. My experience with the Catholic of the past, (the one that almost one my conversion) approached teaching with the aspect of ‘I will teach the truth and let the spirit guide the humble’. The bigotry, lies, and vitriol I see here are quite surprising. I am faced with the prospect of committing the logical fallacy of a false dilemma, the Cahtolic’s here are either liars (knowing the truth but teaching falsehood) or so influenced by the very protestants they revile that they truly do not know the truth.
Certainly the former has some truth in it. Here are examples of overt lies that I cannot believe the person is unaware of the truth:

-Kelli said: Isn’t this exactly what the Mormons say happened to us? That the Apostles and prophets died leaving no one in authority. (referencing the death of the prophet). Is she suggesting we felt Joseph Smith would never die? The Apostles were all alive. They prayed to God, in the name of Jesus, and the mantle of the Presiding Office, the Prophet on the Earth fell upon Brigham Young.

This is not an overt lie.

I was responding to the post that said Joseph Smith died, leaving the new translation of the bible unfinished.
No one has ever finished this translation, so the Mormons say it isnt entirely authoritive. (please scroll this thread to find the post I was responding to).

So if Joseph Smith died, (which I never suggested the Mormons would think he never would), and no one was left to finish his work, isn’t that an apostasy?

That is why I said, "Isn’t this exactly what the Mormons say happened to us? "

I am trying to find out the Mormons point of view on this matter.

Please don’t accuse me of lying. Thanks.

 

[Montalban]

Please don’t accuse me of lying. Thanks.

The same one has accused me (on this thread) of being an adulterer. I think the cultic elements of Mormonism are manifest;

a) hostility to questions
b) aversion to real answers
c) belief in circular logic
d) insults

 

[majick275]

and i’m still waiting on wussup to respond to my posts…

 

[Kristine1957]

Wow ok, thanks.

I guess I was wondering more why they don’t completely rewrite the Bible, leaving out the “errors” and combining it with the BOM, and so getting rid of the KJV altogether.

They do…They print their own Bible (King James Version) with additional LDS footnotes, dictionary and topical guide. These cross reference to their other books of scripture and provide LDS explanations.

 

[Kristine1957]

The same one has accused me (on this thread) of being an adulterer. I think the cultic elements of Mormonism are manifest;

a) hostility to questions
b) aversion to real answers
c) belief in circular logic
d) insults

In my opinion and as a former Mormon, Im sure some of the LDS people on here get frustrated. They have been taught most of their lives as to the “true teachings” and when others ask questions they try real hard to justify the teachings, its a natural reaction to defend what you have been taught. Honestly I’m surprised that any LDS member is on this site and I’m very shocked to see how rude some of them are… What ever happened to …Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. …

 

[Allweather]

In my opinion and as a former Mormon, Im sure some of the LDS people on here get frustrated. They have been taught most of their lives as to the “true teachings” and when others ask questions they try real hard to justify the teachings, its a natural reaction to defend what you have been taught. Honestly I’m surprised that any LDS member is on this site and I’m very shocked to see how rude some of them are… What ever happened to …Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. …

One thing that strikes me about all of them, or at least, it seems like all of them, is that they will announce that they will no longer respond to posts from this or that person. I’ve never seen this done by any non-Mormon. It leads me to believe that this is something they are taught to do whenever presented with arguments that cut to their bone. Tune it out, go on to another “prospect.”

As far as the rudeness, some of us, including myself, have returned their rudeness to them in kind. I don’t feel good about this, but I’m human. Personally, I am deeply offended by the apostasy charge. Apostasy is very, very grave matter, a sin for which there is virtually no forgiveness. The Mormons throw this charge about as if it is just common knowledge. Their very presence, even when they’re not talking directly about apostasy, is an affront to me, and to every good Christian, because I know that at the root of Mormonism is this filthy teaching about The Great Apostasy. Some Mormons are more attached to it than others, but I gather that all of them, even the poorly catechised among them, believe in it.

 

[cothrige]

By the Apostasy we mean the loss of the divine authority and priesthood of the Church. It is clear to us that that authority was lost to the Christian church early on, because after the death of the Apostles the church was no longer being led by revelation from the Lord as the early church used to be, and also the institution of the Twelve Apostles disappeared with keys of the kingdom that they once possessed. All of these have now been restored to earth in this dispensation of the gospel, and are fully functional in only one church in the world, and that is the LDS Church.

Okay, quick question for clarification here. You use the Bible, though saying it is less than perfect now, but you do in fact still use it. I assume you believe it to be inspired, to the extent that it is translated correctly and preserved. However, here you admit that the apostasy means that the Church ceased to have any authority just after the death of the Apostles. So, how did we get the Bible, which you do use and seem to hold as inspired, in the first place? It certainly wasn’t collected together definitively during the life of the Apostles, or even the men who wrote it, and most likely not within the lives of the men who knew the men who wrote it. The earliest evidence of a complete modern New Testament is something like the third or fourth century. This means, effectively, that the entire New Testament is a product of the Apostasy. Why is it used at all then?

Patrick

 

[Allweather]

and i’m still waiting on wussup to respond to my posts…

Me, too. I’m starting to think that ol’ wuss went down the road with rmcmullen. Cain’t Hang.

 

[Erich]

The same one has accused me (on this thread) of being an adulterer.

Me, too (in the same post, in fact). So, how many bashers, liars, and adulterers are there on this thread?

 

[Kristine1957]

One thing that strikes me about all of them, or at least, it seems like all of them, is that they will announce that they will no longer respond to posts from this or that person. I’ve never seen this done by any non-Mormon. It leads me to believe that this is something they are taught to do whenever presented with arguments that cut to their bone. Tune it out, go on to another “prospect.”

As far as the rudeness, some of us, including myself, have returned their rudeness to them in kind. I don’t feel good about this, but I’m human. Personally, I am deeply offended by the apostasy charge. Apostasy is very, very grave matter, a sin for which there is virtually no forgiveness. The Mormons throw this charge about as if it is just common knowledge. Their very presence, even when they’re not talking directly about apostasy, is an affront to me, and to every good Christian, because I know that at the root of Mormonism is this filthy teaching about The Great Apostasy. Some Mormons are more attached to it than others, but I gather that all of them, even the poorly catechised among them, believe in it.

Missionaries are taught to back away from individuals or drop the subject and move on to another subject if your “potential convert” dosn’t agree. They teach you to bring out the other points of the church that can “back up their claim” Thats why you see LDS people trying to explain the mormon teachings but as I’m sure you have noticed they DONT answer a DIRECT question, they say they do but… we all know they dont have the answer so they try to avoid it and pick another topic… I believe if they can get one person on here to question the catholic or any other faith they are having progress…
As for the “Great Apostasy” I’m very offended that the mormon church is saying that the early church( which we all know is Catholic) went corrupt
I would like to know if the Catholic Church went corrupt then where is the early records of the Mormon Church such as:
Temple ceremonies,
Baptism for the dead,
That God was a man who evolved into a god and that worthy Mormon males and women can evolve into gods and goddesses.

Just to name a few, the fact is there is not any historical evidence that exists to corroborate their position. and if they say they do SHOW me where???
Now Im off to Catholic Bible Study take care everyone

 

[AWall]

Last night, me and the fiance watched a program on TV about a breakaway polygamous sect in AZ. Seems they don’t care much for the Salt Lake City crew. They say that it has fallen away from the Lord’s command to practice polygamy. Then, there is the FLDS, whose charming “prophet” today languishes in jail, awaiting trial on child abuse charges related to his polygamous teachings. Besides these two, there are others. Which of these, the SLC crew, or the yet polygamous ones, are the “full glory” versions of Mormonism?

We watched that too, and got a kick out of the polygamist saying that they believe all Joseph Smith revealed (they even stick to the curse of Cain belief) and can’t change their doctrine just because it’s not popular this day in age. But that’s just what the mainstream church did/does. They change doctrine b/c it’s not popular. Obviously, the ones in SLC are apostate and the sects on the AZ/UT border must be the true church.

 

[Jerusha]

That is why tag-team techniques work so well. Each one of us has a different area of expertise.

I don’t see any BOM discussions going on much of anywhere.