The Book of Romans

[PJM]

=kat07;11374389]I know a lot of Protestants like to point to Romans 11:6. Is this verse clearly saying adding works negates the point of grace and is Paul clearly making the point that works in any capacity negate what grace is? I need some clarification here…

Also, what about Romans 8:24. What is the hope that is spoken about? Protestants say that hope Paul speaks of is the same hope that is spoken of in Phillipians 1:6, when he says he is confident that he who began a good work in us will bring it to completion on the day of Christ Jesus. No, not your justification which is instantaneous but rather your sanctification which is ongoing.

Is Paul saying the hope we have by our salvation is that one day in heaven we will be fully redeemed leaving behind the flesh and becoming all spirit. Is the process of being sanctified separate from your Salvation. Protestants will tell you Jesus does cover us for salvation because no matter what we can never be fully purified here on earth…then the point to Romans 8:24, where Paul talks about the hope of when we are fully purified…

THE CC TEACHES THAT NO ONE CAN OR WILL “WORK THEIR WAY INTO HEAVEN” BY WORKS ALONE

So clearly the Catholic reality is either not understood or misrepresented.

Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."

Rom.2: 13 “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

John 3:5 “Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

Each of these is “works”

James chpt. 2: " James 2: …So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. “ But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith… You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

ALL MUST USE THE ENTIRE BIBLE

Paul is saying that cf. Salvation is NOT guareenteed! Phil.2: 12 “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”

Paul is PROCLAIMIMG that one’s salvation CAN BE LOST! Matt.24 13 “But he who endures to the end will be saved”

Our HOPE rest in Christ Mercy; GRACE and OUR Perserverance:thumbsup:

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[Isaiah45_9]

yes the bible is and are understood in the
christian religion,

as there is the teaching of salvation by Grace alone- and the scriptures are arranged – it’s called the Roman road study–

by faith alone not by (catholic) works

but in the catholic religion-- it is confusing- and not easly understood–

this is why there is a difference-- between the 2 religious systems – and why christians are or can be baptised in the Holy Spirit- and can function in the gifts of the Spirit as described in 1 cor-ch12/14/ and even ch 13

• and catholics practice the sacrments-- in the continuing (Effort) to get some imputed-- holy spirit grace

I’ve never heard this before

Wait, I think I have heard faith alone before somewhere…

Here!

James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and **not by faith alone. **

You forgot the not buddy.

I know he is not going to reply, but I have a pretty good feeling he’ll be lurking.

 

[novo2kepha]

In my dealings with non-Catholic Christians, Romans is the ‘go to’ text to prove Catholicism is a ‘false system’. One guy even said to me “Don’t you find it striking that God decided to show Rome is wrong using a letter called Romans?”

 

[Rich]

So my dear friend

It’s “OK” that one part of the bible contradicts another?

Luke 9”23-26 “For he that shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him the Son of man shall be ashamed, when he shall come in his majesty, and that of his Father, and of the holy angels”

John 12: 48-49 He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak.”

2nd. Tim. 3:16-17 “All scripture, [is] inspired of God, [and] is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.”

Matthew 4:4 “Who answered and said: It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God”

Eph.2: 8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”

Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, “One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Rom.2: 13 “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

John 3:5 “Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

James 2: 24-26 " Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead".

God Bless you friend:thumbsup:

Thanks for your post

With all love, but no where does the bible contradict itself. In the Catholic faith “works” is express in following the ten commandments. If you break them you have committed a mortal sin. In James letter his works are all good deeds helping people. To James if you have real faith you will show it by your love for people not by obeying the law. Because by the law no one will be justified.

 

[Della]

With all love, but no where does the bible contradict itself. In the Catholic faith “works” is express in following the ten commandments. If you break them you have committed a mortal sin. In James letter his works are all good deeds helping people. To James if you have real faith you will show it by your love for people not by obeying the law. Because by the law no one will be justified.

The Ten Commandments are a summation of the natural law that all men are to observe. It is the law that God put into every heart that St. Paul talked about, so breaking them is committing mortal/grave/serious sin no matter who anyone is or what belief system he holds.

The law that Sts. Paul and James are talking about is the Levitical law with all its prohibitions, not the natural law/Ten Commandments/moral law. We all sin. That’s a simple truth. Anyone who denies that he sins is deceiving himself. Jesus established reconciliation for the forgiveness of sins when he gave the Apostles the authority to “bind and loose” sins. We Catholics are following the NT in the way we worship God, ask for forgiveness and receive God’s grace in the Sacraments established by Christ himself.

 

[PJM]

=Rich;11379357]With all love, but no where does the bible contradict itself. In the Catholic faith “works” is express in following the ten commandments. If you break them you have committed a mortal sin. In James letter his works are all good deeds helping people. To James if you have real faith you will show it by your love for people not by obeying the law. Because by the law no one will be justified.

WELCOME TO CAF Rich

I’d LOVE to discuss your source for these positions.

As a FYI: The “10 Commandemnts” are the CATAGORIES of sins; not my friend the list of all sins. [Read mt 5:31-47 for an indication of this fact.

Not every sin is a Mortal sin PLEASE READ 1 Jn 1:8-10; 1 Jn. 5:16-17 and John 20:19-23

Catholic “works” revolve AOUND charity, much more than the commandments. Reread James chapter 2 [its short]

Actually both James and Paul are SAYING:

Works of the LAW = the OT 613 aditional addon new manmade commandments imposed on the Jewish nation.

While “the Law” makes reference to the Commandments AND the Techings of the Church. Mt. 10:1-8; Mt. 15:15-19; John 17:14-20; Mk.16:14-15 & Mt. 28:16-20.

We ARE delighted to have you join us; but my friend take care: you will find catholics here who do read and know the bible
God Bless you,
patrick