The book of Tobit and Magic

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A protestant said that the book of Tobit teaches magic.

He gave me these verses any thoughts?

Then the angel said to him, Cut open the fish and take the heart and liver and gall and put them away safely.’ … Then the young man said to the angel, Brother Azarias, of what use is the liver and heart and gall of the fish?' He replied, As for the heart and the liver, if a demon or evil spirit gives trouble to any one, you make a smoke from these before the man or woman, and that person will never be troubled again. And as for the gall, anoint with it a man who has white films in his eyes, and he will be cured’" (Tobit 6:4,6-8).
 
No more magical than the Pool of Bethesda.

Maybe the fish is a type of the dead Christ.
 
Many ordinary items were thought to heal in Biblical times:

See Mark 6:13 and Luke 10:34
 
The prophet Elisha used a bowl of salt to “heal” the bad water spring at Jericho. (2 Kings 2:21)

The prophet Elisha told Naaman to go and wash seven times in the Jordan River to cure his leprosy. (2 Kings 5:10)

Jesus applied his spittle, by itself or mixed with dirt, to the eyes of some to heal their blindness. (Mark 8:23; John 9:6)
 
Or maybe, just maybe, Rafael was trying to hide the fact that he was an angel?
 
Joseph said:
A protestant said that the book of Tobit teaches magic.

Then the angel said to him, Cut open the fish and take the heart and liver and gall and put them away safely.’ … Then the young man said to the angel, Brother Azarias, of what use is the liver and heart and gall of the fish?' He replied, As for the heart and the liver, if a demon or evil spirit gives trouble to any one, you make a smoke from these before the man or woman, and that person will never be troubled again. And as for the gall, anoint with it a man who has white films in his eyes, and he will be cured’" (Tobit 6:4,6-8).
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Keep reading. Later on the Archangel specifically tells Tobit that it is not magic, but God’s power.
Sorry I don’t have a specific reference, but it’s a short book and a good read at that. 😉
 
Spirithound said:
Sorry I don’t have a specific reference, but it’s a short book and a good read at that. 😉
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AMEN!!! Tobit and Ruth are two of my favorite OT books!!! I still laugh when I think of Tobias wanting to pray before consummating his marriage. I BET he wanted to pray!!! I bet he was long-winded on purpose, too!!! I know Raphael told him to pray, but I’m sure it didn’t take much convincing.
 
Spirithound said:
Keep reading. Later on the Archangel specifically tells Tobit that it is not magic, but God’s power.
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I don’t see a reference to magic at all…Raphael states they are “medicines”.
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Spirithound:
Sorry I don’t have a specific reference, but it’s a short book and a good read at that. 😉
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Perhaps you are referring to 12:14-15:
14 And now the Lord hath sent me to heal thee, and to deliver Sara thy son’s wife from the devil. 15 For I am the angel Raphael, one of the seven, who stand before the Lord.
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Either way, its clear that the casting out of the demon and the healing is attributed to God.
 
mtr01 said:
I don’t see a reference to magic at all…Raphael states they are “medicines”.
Perhaps you are referring to 12:14-15:Either way, its clear that the casting out of the demon and the healing is attributed to God.
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Ah yes, it seemed much more specific in my memory…but anyways, magic is a power that is inherent in a human individual, and so is by definition not God’s, nor is it even possible for an angel.
 
Joseph said:
A protestant said that the book of Tobit teaches magic.

He gave me these verses any thoughts?

Then the angel said to him, Cut open the fish and take the heart and liver and gall and put them away safely.’ … Then the young man said to the angel, Brother Azarias, of what use is the liver and heart and gall of the fish?' He replied, As for the heart and the liver, if a demon or evil spirit gives trouble to any one, you make a smoke from these before the man or woman, and that person will never be troubled again. And as for the gall, anoint with it a man who has white films in his eyes, and he will be cured’" (Tobit 6:4,6-8).
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I agree with NotWorthy. Tobit is one of my favorite OT books.

The charge of using magic in the book of Tobit is the standard Protestant argument for why they don’t include it in the OT canon.

Here is an article that deals with this issue:

catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9806fea2.asp
Today, opponents present two classes of arguments against the books (the deuterocanonicals). These center around both the content of the books in their relationship to the rest of Scripture and the determination of who has proper authority to recognize or reject books as inspired.
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Five arguments are directed against the contents of the books themselves: God forbids sorcery, yet Tobit uses sympathetic magic to drive away a demon and heal blindness. Scripture is inerrant, yet Judith and Tobit have erroneous geography and history. Similarly, Sirach and 2 Maccabees implicitly deny they are inspired Scripture, since both contain prefaces in which the authors apologize for any possible errors. God forbids lying, yet Judith and the angel Raphael provide sinful examples by giving false information (Tob. 5:5, 5:13, Jud. 9:10, 13). Lastly, none of the books are quoted in the New Testament.
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**Far from presenting an exercise in magic, Tobit presents the ancient Christological symbol of the fish (who is, in Tobit 6:3, literally a catcher of men) salted and roasted on coals (as Christ was scourged and roasted in the sun on the cross) in order to destroy the power of a murderous demon and drive him away from a virginal bride. The fish is used to heal a blind man (cf. John 9) by making things like scales fall from his eyes **(cf. Acts 10:18).
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Thanks Janet.

And may I re-emphasize - Maybe Rafael was still trying to conceal the fact that he was an angel. That’s why the ruse.
 
NotWorthy said:
Thanks Janet.

And may I re-emphasize - Maybe Rafael was still trying to conceal the fact that he was an angel. That’s why the ruse.
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The time was not right for Raphael to reveal his identity, this we know because he later did so, but I would tend to look for a different, deeper reason, ie, the fish typology, or to show that the sacred can be accomplished usiing common items.
 
You know, I enjoy Typology as much as the next guy. Heck, maybe even more than most. But sometimes can’t a fish just be a fish?
 
NotWorthy said:
You know, I enjoy Typology as much as the next guy. Heck, maybe even more than most. But sometimes can’t a fish just be a fish?
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I want to know what type the little dog represented at the end of the book.🙂 The only other time dogs were mentioned in the Bible, was when they ate Jezebel.
 
Tobit contains some of the most wonderful typology in the Bible.
 
Christine, tonight is “order out night.” So, I’ve got to go pick up dinner to keep my wife happy. And then I’ve got to cut the grass like a madman, before it rains again.

So, I’ll be back later.

Peter
 
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