The Book Which is Most being read:Qur'an

[IgnatianPhilo]

The power is in the truth but the truth is not in the power.

God allow people to decide do wrong or right with free will. Some people had misinterpreted revelation of God which came through Jesus and God corrected that by another revelation which never changed and corrupted. If you have a little faith you should consider what God say in Qur’an.

This is a double standard since you don’t say this with regard to the Quran. No one can imperil the Quran’s truth according to Islam because God won’t allow it to be corrupted. Yet the Gospel, which is also God’s truth according to Islam you allow to be corrupted.

Here’s my question is it possible that the truth of the Quran has been damaged or destroyed? If yes I’ll accept your answer, but if no I would like to know the reason why the Quran is allowed to be immaculate but the Gospel is not.

 

[hasantas]

What does this mean if one still uses parts of it to support the Quran? Where in the Quran does it say the original texts of Bible are not available?

And what is the official Bible that Muslims use now if original does not exist? I’m still waiting for your answer.

MJ

By present situation Bible hold very facts. So I can interpret Bible to support Qur’an.

I do not claim that Muslims have original Bible. Qur’an does not say anything about originality but Qur’an warn about misinterpretations. For instance:

78- And indeed, there is among them a party who alter the Scripture with their tongues so you may think it is from the Scripture, but it is not from the Scripture. And they say, “This is from Allah,” but it is not from Allah. And they speak untruth about Allah while they know. Ali-Imran(3)

For instance there is no Trinity in scripture but someone try to make it as if it is from scripture!

 

[hasantas]

This is a double standard since you don’t say this with regard to the Quran. No one can imperil the Quran’s truth according to Islam because God won’t allow it to be corrupted. Yet the Gospel, which is also God’s truth according to Islam you allow to be corrupted.

Here’s my question is it possible that the truth of the Quran has been damaged or destroyed? If yes I’ll accept your answer, but if no I would like to know the reason why the Quran is allowed to be immaculate but the Gospel is not.

I think I could not explain. Qur’an warn about misinterpretations. Otherwise all scriptures conveyed same truths. And Qur’an is not a misinterpretation form.

You ask why God allowed. Indeed I do not know. God had allowed Devil to deceive Adam. I think that is something interest in wisdom of God.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I think I could not explain. Qur’an warn about misinterpretations. Otherwise all scriptures conveyed same truths. And Qur’an is not a misinterpretation form.

You ask why God allowed. Indeed I do not know. God had allowed Devil to deceive Adam. I think that is something interest in wisdom of God.

Is the only reason you say the New Testament is corrupted because it is in the Greek and in the Greek it plainly disagrees with the Quran? The Quran refers to the Gospel as being an authority to which Christians can appeal to.

Is the Gospel mentioned in the Quran a physical book in your mind? Does it correspond to any of the New Testament then? Or is it something separate from the New Testament?

 

[JimmyDFG]

If you think verses carefully you will understand that what Jesus said. As you cite:

Matthew 28:18 “Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

In that verse Jesus said all authority has been given to me. Notice that Jesus did not say all authority is mine or myself but Father gave! Yes Father gave prophets some powers and Jesus was given authority and was supported by Holy Spirit. It is also explained in Qur’an.

In other verse Jesus say it is Father who act through me and I just do what Father wish or say. Notice that Jesus never claim anything for Himself.

Jesus had performed many miracles to convince believers and people. And there were many signs which point that Jesus was sent by Father. So Jesus said there is no need to see father because Jesus himself was a very powerful evidence for Father.

All power is his. Because the Father and Jesus are one!! Who has the authority to forgive sins and give eternal life?

John 10:28
“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand”

In other verse Jesus say it is Father who act through me and I just do what Father wish or say. Notice that Jesus never claim anything for Himself.

Can you please find this verse for me?
You are mistaken on thinking Jesus never claimed anything for himself. He did claim “I AM” John 10:28

So Jesus said there is no need to see father because Jesus himself was a very powerful evidence for Father.

Can you also find the verse Jesus said “there is no need to see father”

It seems to me you are making claims on what you think and not what is actually in the Bible

 

[MartinJordan]

You are obsessed about skipping. I cannot cite the whole Bible in every time! please do not say again that because it is nonsense. Also you do same thing to explain an issue. Otherwise it would bore and exhaust people.

I’m only asking you to be fair to Jesus when he’s talking . Your skipping his words and making points from a middle of his teaching . I’m really concerned why this is not clear to you. Are you alright ? I’ve not asked you to read the whole Bible but be responsible when you use Jesus’ words .

Peace be with you.

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

By present situation Bible hold very facts. So I can interpret Bible to support Qur’an.

I do not claim that Muslims have original Bible. Qur’an does not say anything about originality but Qur’an warn about misinterpretations. For instance:

78- And indeed, there is among them a party who alter the Scripture with their tongues so you may think it is from the Scripture, but it is not from the Scripture. And they say, “This is from Allah,” but it is not from Allah. And they speak untruth about Allah while they know. Ali-Imran(3)

For instance there is no Trinity in scripture but someone try to make it as if it is from scripture!

I didn’t say Muslims have the original Bible. But since you are a Muslim I’m asking which Bible is your official one?

The Trinity Meanwhile is God’s revelation to man. Not through books/scripture alone because they are inanimate objects so can’t speak on their own but only through experience of those who lived loved and died for the Faith.

Peace be with you.

MJ

 

[JimmyDFG]

Every one thought that Jesus must be raised from death so writers had writen in that way. As I said before even Jesus Himself had thought that He would be judged and tortured and killed. Jesus had declared that some times before the event happened. Jesus was informed by God. And Jesus prayed God to be saved. And God accepted pray of Jesus. But Jesus was not sure if His pray will be accepted by God. That issue is very complex yet God had explained in Qur’an.

Jesus Himself after crucifixion(ofcourse not of himself) said He goest to God of all people include Jesus:

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. John 20.

For Father jesus said my God! It is very clear. If Jesus say my God for Father so how Jesus could be God Himself?

hasantas, How does this answer any of my questions I asked you??

Would not the “look a like jesus” still be dead and still in the tomb?
After allah brought up jesus…how did jesus come back to earth and show himself to the disciples?
Because the “look a like jesus” had died on the cross and in the tomb he would remain. For Jesus himself said in Luke 9:60 "But he answered him, “Let the dead bury their dead.But you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”
So wouldn’t the look a like still in the tomb?

Why do we have verses in the Bible telling of Jesus’s Resurrection and of Jesus’ own words?
As I mentioned in Luke 24:46
And he said to them, “Thus it is written that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day."
and also the road to Emmaus appearance. Plus what about Thomas in John 20:27 “Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe"

28 Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.”

Noticed that in 29 Jesus does not correct Thomas saying he is not god?

Is this the corruption you speak of? But yet you forget that no one can change allah’s words (6:34; 6:115; 18:27).
2.Jesus was given the Gospel by allah (57:27).
3.The quran confirms the Gospels (5:48)
4.The Gospels contradict the quran

 

[MartinJordan]

Every one thought that Jesus must be raised from death so writers had writen in that way. As I said before even Jesus Himself had thought that He would be judged and tortured and killed. Jesus had declared that some times before the event happened. Jesus was informed by God. And Jesus prayed God to be saved. And God accepted pray of Jesus. But Jesus was not sure if His pray will be accepted by God. That issue is very complex yet God had explained in Qur’an.

No. Jesus himself said he would be raised from the dead. Not “everyone said”.

He said to them, “How foolish you are, and **how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! **26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 **And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
**

So Jesus is clearly saying Himself thus is the Messiah and he had to suffer death. Yes, suffer himself.

Jesus Himself after crucifixion(ofcourse not of himself) said He goest to God of all people include Jesus:

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. John 20.

For Father jesus said my God! It is very clear. If Jesus say my God for Father so how Jesus could be God Himself?

But the verse hasn’t finished yet Hasantas. Kindly be fair. It continues:

John 20:18 Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them that he had said these things to her.

So Jesus is Lord. And as Jimmy kindly shows you. That Thomas calls Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”

MJ

 

[gmcbroom]

When last we spoke you said the Quran and some of the Hadith were the word of God. Why not all? Also how about the Quran only Muslims, would you consider them Muslims or apostates.

 

[hasantas]

Is the only reason you say the New Testament is corrupted because it is in the Greek and in the Greek it plainly disagrees with the Quran? The Quran refers to the Gospel as being an authority to which Christians can appeal to.

Is the Gospel mentioned in the Quran a physical book in your mind? Does it correspond to any of the New Testament then? Or is it something separate from the New Testament?

The revelation which Jesus lived was translated into Greek. So can you make it sure that either the original revelation was saved or not through translation?

Even with that situation Bible do not conflict with Qur’an but misinterpretation of Bible do.

What is Gospel? Gospel is life of Jesus. God had revealed Jesus and Jesus performed that revelation through His life. His life was to preach people and to point the straight morally way. The revelation was in body of Jesus but body of Jesus was not revelation. The revelation is from God and the revelation into body of Jesus had accreted so strongly with body. That is becasue of that someone thought Jesus is the revelation or God himself. But Jesus was not God himself but God was as if inside into body of Jesus. And Jesus was supported by Holy Spirit. That is explained in Bible:

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. John 14.

And also Jesus was taught Torah and had authority to supersede some verses of Torah.

So the problem is that could writers of Gospel successed to record revelation(life of Jesus) properly?

 

[hasantas]

=JimmyDFG;14035048]All power is his. Because the Father and Jesus are one!! Who has the authority to forgive sins and give eternal life?

John 10:28
“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand”

Jesus was the way for eternal life and forgiving of sins.

Can you please find this verse for me?
You are mistaken on thinking Jesus never claimed anything for himself. He did claim “I AM” John 10:28

Can you also find the verse Jesus said “there is no need to see father”

It seems to me you are making claims on what you think and not what is actually in the Bible

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. John 14

 

[hasantas]

The same thing can be said for muslims who don’t understand Arabic. If you have two muslims, one reading the quran in Arabic and the other reading in Chinese. Is the muslim reading the quran in Chinese any less of a muslim than the one that read it in Arabic?

The Gospels have been carefully translated to all languages for all people to read and understand…and for all to know Jesus.
When Jesus said in Matthew 28:19 to “make disciples of all nations” there is no language barrier there. Its not for those who only speak Aramaic.

The word of God is not chained by language!!

You are right. But non of interpretation of Qur’an is equal to Arabic Qur’an. There are thousands of interpretations and translations of Qur’an but non of them are equal to Qur’an itself. Everyone can understand Qur’an in any language. But for deeply understanding original Arabic text is first. What I wanted raised is that yet there is no original text of Gospel so how could we verify any translation or interpretation?

 

[MartinJordan]

Jesus was the way for eternal life and forgiving of sins
/

He said I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. Not “I was the Way…”

John 14 :6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

And he continued to say : 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. John 14

You’ll have to look back at John 5

John 5 : 16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself;he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man."

Plus even John 10 :14

11 14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18** No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”**

So if you belief in Jesus you’ll have accept this too.

MJ

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

The revelation which Jesus lived was translated into Greek. So can you make it sure that either the original revelation was saved or not through translation?

Even with that situation Bible do not conflict with Qur’an but misinterpretation of Bible do.

What is Gospel? Gospel is life of Jesus. God had revealed Jesus and Jesus performed that revelation through His life. His life was to preach people and to point the straight morally way. The revelation was in body of Jesus but body of Jesus was not revelation. The revelation is from God and the revelation into body of Jesus had accreted so strongly with body. That is becasue of that someone thought Jesus is the revelation or God himself. But Jesus was not God himself but God was as if inside into body of Jesus. And Jesus was supported by Holy Spirit. That is explained in Bible:

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. John 14.

And also Jesus was taught Torah and had authority to supersede some verses of Torah.

So the problem is that could writers of Gospel successed to record revelation(life of Jesus) properly?

The writers of the New Testament didn’t succeed the record of the revelation of Jesus but recorded it’s essence and explained it’s theology (in the case of the epistles). Jesus entrusted to his apostles an authority to spread the gospel and we can see via the book of acts that it took time to understand the full implications of the gospel, that is it was not limited to the Jews only but was to be spread to the entire world, the gentiles.

The problem as i see it for you is this, the Quran refers to Christians as people of the book, as if we have a book which is legitimate. Yet you don’t consider the books which the Quran tells us to judge by as legitimate, except the parts of those books that agree with the Quran.

There is no good answer for why God would allow his inviolable word, the Gospel and Torah, to be corrupted by the free will of men and yet allow his Quran not to be corrupted by the free will of men. Unless you are arguing that the Muslims in their free will were more faithful. To argue that is to go against the Quran which says the true followers of Jesus would be victorious over the disbelievers, which to me implies the Gospel would continue to exist since they are true followers and we know the ones who were victorious were orthodox Christians.

But my argument that the Greek text of the New testament can be trusted is based on what happened by Jesus’ trusted disciples. They were the ones who found it appropriate to spread the Gospel in the Greek language. They were guided by the Holy Spirit (see acts). Your own Quran says they were victorious over disbelievers. If you distrust what the apostles accomplished or chose in conveying the Gospel in the way they did, through the communities they established and the texts they left us then the promises of Jesus were lies to his beloved disciples. Is Jesus a liar? Is God mocked? Was the ministry of Jesus pointless? In the view of Islam, yes.

 

[JimmyDFG]

You are right. But non of interpretation of Qur’an is equal to Arabic Qur’an. There are thousands of interpretations and translations of Qur’an but non of them are equal to Qur’an itself. Everyone can understand Qur’an in any language. But for deeply understanding original Arabic text is first. What I wanted raised is that yet there is no original text of Gospel so how could we verify any translation or interpretation?

“But non of interpretation of Qur’an is equal to Arabic Qur’an.”
" But for deeply understanding original Arabic text is first "

So pretty much ,allahs words are limited to Arabic.
Why is it allah only chooses Arabic?

The word of God is to be heard through the world in all languages as stated in…
Matthew 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come.”

There is no language barrier with the words of Christ or the Holy Spirit. Why should we know less of a faith or be less in the faith because we don’t understand the original language.

By your comment hasantas, the quran and the word of allah are chained by the Arabic language.

Just a side note…
Because the non interpretation of quran is equal to Arabic quran. This definitely wouldn’t make the quran the most read book

 

[JimmyDFG]

Jesus was the way for eternal life and forgiving of sins.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. John 14

hasantas, Can you answer my questions?

Even thought “all power” was given to him( Matthew 28:18 ), he has the “power” because Jesus and the Father are one John 10:30

I’ve given you the verse John 10:28 where Jesus gives eternal life…and your reply is “Jesus was the way…”
Is what you said in the Bible? If so, what verse?

I’m also waiting for the verses Jesus said “there is no need to see father”
Because I don’t see it in the verses you gave. I don’t even know where you got these verses from …

"9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. John 14"

John 14:9-10
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.

You realize that it shows Jesus Divinity and further confirms John 10:30

 

[JimmyDFG]

The revelation which Jesus lived was translated into Greek. So can you make it sure that either the original revelation was saved or not through translation?

Even with that situation Bible do not conflict with Qur’an but misinterpretation of Bible do.

What is Gospel? Gospel is life of Jesus. God had revealed Jesus and Jesus performed that revelation through His life. His life was to preach people and to point the straight morally way. The revelation was in body of Jesus but body of Jesus was not revelation. The revelation is from God and the revelation into body of Jesus had accreted so strongly with body. That is becasue of that someone thought Jesus is the revelation or God himself. But Jesus was not God himself but God was as if inside into body of Jesus. And Jesus was supported by Holy Spirit. That is explained in Bible:

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. John 14.

And also Jesus was taught Torah and had authority to supersede some verses of Torah.

So the problem is that could writers of Gospel successed to record revelation(life of Jesus) properly?

hasantas, The point here is that because we do not have the original manuscripts of the Bible, we cannot really know what the originals said and, therefore, the Bible could have been corrupted?
But yet you compare the Bible to the quran and state that the quran is the guaranteed, preserved, direct word of allah given by the angel Gabriel to muhammad.

The Bible documents are well attested as being reliable and accurate. In fact, there are around 24,000 ancient manuscripts of the New Testament. So much so, that no major area of Christian doctrine is affected by possible variations among manuscripts

Regarding the quran, muhammad couldn’t read or write; so he recited the quran to people who then wrote it down. There is no evidence at all that the quran was written down in its entirety in muhammad’s lifetime and compiled as a unit. So how could he have verified its truth?

Shortly after muhammad’s death, the muslim Uthman ordered all sets of the quran manuscripts to be destroyed except the codex of Zaid. Why? Is it because Zaid’s copy was better? If so, how do we know? Did differences in the copies arise so quickly that discrepancies were evident, and Uthman recognized the need for a standardized copy lest islam suffer division?

 

[JimmyDFG]

hasantas, Would not the “look a like jesus” still be dead and still in the tomb?
After allah brought up jesus…how did jesus come back to earth and show himself to the disciples?
Because the “look a like jesus” had died on the cross and in the tomb he would remain. For Jesus himself said in Luke 9:60 "But he answered him, “Let the dead bury their dead.But you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”
So wouldn’t the look a like still in the tomb?

 

[JimmyDFG]

The revelation which Jesus lived was translated into Greek. So can you make it sure that either the original revelation was saved or not through translation?

Even with that situation Bible do not conflict with Qur’an but misinterpretation of Bible do.

What is Gospel? Gospel is life of Jesus. God had revealed Jesus and Jesus performed that revelation through His life. His life was to preach people and to point the straight morally way. The revelation was in body of Jesus but body of Jesus was not revelation. The revelation is from God and the revelation into body of Jesus had accreted so strongly with body. That is becasue of that someone thought Jesus is the revelation or God himself. But Jesus was not God himself but God was as if inside into body of Jesus. And Jesus was supported by Holy Spirit. That is explained in Bible:

And also Jesus was taught Torah and had authority to supersede some verses of Torah.

So the problem is that could writers of Gospel successed to record revelation(life of Jesus) properly?

You give verses from the quran on what Jesus said, but he did not speak Arabic. As you mentioned Jesus spoke Aramaic, so that translation could of be changed as well.
Some accounts that Arabic wasn’t spoken until the 5th or 6th century. So how is this even possible?