The Book Which is Most being read:Qur'an

[JimmyDFG]

Did satans create Hell? Are satans creators? Or do you mean that God created Hell because of evil actions of satans? And that is true that the conclusion of evil actions is Hell.

God give ilness, disasters, hunger etc. All these actions cannot be explained just through love. Ofcourse love of God may appear in every case even in disasters but the main attribute is not love in every case.

Love is one of reason because of which God had created all things. God love His creatures because all things are products of God’s excellent and miraculous actions. And humanbeing has sense of love which was given human to hold love of God above everything(Muhabbatullah). One name of Muhammad is Habibullah(beloved of God).

Why God created Hell. Because God’s wisdom and knowing is eternal. So God knows which human will select the right way and which will trend to evil way timelessly. God know/knew/will know/beyond of time so God created Hell for people who decide to go on wrong way(rejection and other evil deeds) to punish them. God do not punish evil people because of love but God punish people because of some other attributes which we can say just as :

The Utterly Just, The Judge, The Arbitrator, The Truth, The Avenger, The Almighty, The Self Sufficient, The Most Honorable, The Powerful, The Irresistible, The Compeller, The Most Lofty, The, Restorer/Improver of Affairs, The All Compelling Subduer, The Sublimely Exalted, The Reckoner, The Wise etc.

And also there are Love, Mercy and Grace of God for unbelievers who will stay in Hell for ever. Because being disappeared for ever is the most evil for a being. Human want to survive even in jail in very bad ciscumstances. Hell is a kind of jail and people will suffer according to their sins and after that people will not suffer any more form fire or others but they will not get out for ever. And the Mercy and love of God for them is that they will not suffer any more from fire after a some time. They will stay in Hell(jail) for ever because they had rejected a ever lasting, eternal and endless God. Yes God is eternal through all attributes and an unbelievers reject eternal being God so they merit ever lasting punishment.

My belief and understanding is hell was created by the actions of satan and other angels. Hell is primarily an eternal state of separation between God and those creatures—angels and humans—who have permanently chosen to reject him. God created free will, which is good, but hell is the result of the abuse of free will. God did not create hell; he only allowed for its possibility. God didn’t create hell to begin with, that would contradict his nature… what hell is, is denying God and staying away from God on purpose… God created a possibility for that,
Devil created hell himself when he denied the supreme power of God and wanted to become God…

In Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth. Notice that there is no mention of hell.

“Eternal damnation”, therefore, is not attributed to God’s initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God’s judgement ratifies this state.

The Bible tells us that God is love. In 1 John 4:16 We have come to know and to believe in the love God has for us.
God is love, and whoever remains in love remains in God and God in him. God cares about us and seeks our well being and security. His thoughts about us are infinite and His love is too. This is why God does not desire that anyone go to hell, but that all come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:9 )

Matthew 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but condemned them to the chains of Tartarus and handed them over to be kept for judgment

The issue of illness/sickness, disasters is always a difficult one to deal with. The key is remembering that God’s ways are higher than our ways (Isaiah 55:9). When we are suffering with a sickness, disease, or injury, we usually focus solely on our own suffering. In the midst of a trial of sickness, it is very difficult to focus on what good God might bring about as a result. God can bring about good from any situation. Many people look back on times of sickness as times when they grew closer to God, learned to trust Him more, and/or learned how to truly value life. This is the perspective God has because He is sovereign and knows the end result.

As some of the Saints thanked God for their sufferings because it brought them closer to him.

In Psalm 119:67-71, and 75 - " Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I hold to your promise. You are good and do what is good;
teach me your statutes. The arrogant smear me with lies, but I keep your precepts with all my heart. Their hearts are gross and fat;
as for me, your law is my delight. It was good for me to be afflicted, in order to learn your statutes.
75 I know, LORD, that your judgments are righteous;
The author of Psalm 119 was looking at suffering from God’s perspective. It was good for him to be afflicted. It was faithfulness that caused God to afflict him. The result of the affliction was so that he could learn God’s decrees and obey His Word.

 

[Cheiron]

You cannot relaize that God say I expand universe but a human say that universe expands. The science is the discovering natural laws which are indeed laws of God. And human name that laws as physical or chemical etc. If you relaize that the statements of Qur’an is not product of a practical probe but directly and outright explain the issue. Who can do that? Ofcourse an omniscience person can say that who has no need maths. And scientific formulas can be improved by times but knowledge of God is ultimate.

Natural laws are descriptions of regularities in nature. These descriptions are based on observation and experiments.

The first reason I expect a mathematical formula in the Quran is because mathematics allow for unrivaled precision. There is ambiguity in words, but there is no ambiguity in mathematics. My second reason is that humans are able to make mathematical formulas. If Allah has an equal or better intelligence than humans, then He should have been able to reveal some sophisticated mathematics to Mohammed.

Qur’an point relativity but you will say it do not formulate! God imply that the time is relative.

4- The angels and the Spirit will ascend to Him during a Day the extent of which is fifty thousand years. Al-Maarij(70)

5- He arranges [each] matter from the heaven to the earth; then it will ascend to Him in a Day, the extent of which is a thousand years of those which you count. As-Sajdah(32)

These verses merely say that days are different for Allah than for human. It doesn’t include mass and gravity, which are key to Einsteins theories.

And there are verses about light and stars and dark holes around which light bend. Offcourse Qur’an directly do not light bind but point by implication. And also there are implications for electricity and lamp in Nur(light) verse. Qur’an is not a scientific book to give such details which would be nonsense for people who were not aware of these before centuries.

That argument sounds very strange. Other muslims have said to me that the Quran is universal, that is: not dependent on space and time. Now you’re telling me that Allah tailored his revelation to the people receiving it at a specific time in a specific place. I’m willing to believe you, but that does raise the question why the Quran is relevant in the 21st century if it was made for and revelead to 6th century Arabs? Ofcourse I agree with you that the Quran is not a scientific book.

35- Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The example of His light is like a niche within which is a lamp, the lamp is within glass, the glass as if it were a pearly [white] star lit from [the oil of] a blessed olive tree, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil would almost glow even if untouched by fire. Light upon light. Allah guides to His light whom He wills. And Allah presents examples for the people, and Allah is Knowing of all things. An-Nur(24)

This sounds more like poetic language about Allah’s supposed greatness. The words “is like a” is a clear indication of that.

75- Then I swear by the setting of the stars,

76- And indeed, it is an oath – if you could know – [most] great. Al-Waqıah(56)

These verse point orbits and huge volumes of stars.

Stars set → therefore they have orbits. I don’t see that connection at all.

8- So when the stars are obliterated Al-Mursalat(77)

Read the context. This is a prediction of what happens on Judgement day.

2- And what can make you know what is the night comer?

3- It is the piercing star – At-Tariq(86)

Point dark holes.

I don’t see the connection between a “piercing star” and black holes.

Perhaps I should tell you a bit more about myself. You’re not the first muslim I’ve talked to about these matters. Other muslims have often brought up prophecies that proved the truthfulness of the Quran. Yet when I investigated these prophecies, they were often very, very ambiguous and vague. Most of them do not include a timetable, which I regard as a sign of weakness, because it allows people to say that a particular prophecy has yet to be fulfilled.

Today, scientists make predictions that are far more concrete than any prophesy I’ve ever come across. They make sure that their predictions are verifiable and falsifiable. Some of their predictions were right. I already mentioned Einstein. Halley’s comet is another such astonishing scientific prediction. They predicted particular events would happen on a particular day - and they were vindicated.

No prophet has ever made such a verifiable, falsifiable, unambiguous prediction and been vindicated. Which means:

1: that Allah is deliberately giving humans unverifiable ambiguous predictions,
2: that He isn’t able to be as precise as humans, or
3: that He doesn’t exist and ‘prophets’ made stuff up.

If 1, then we can’t possibly know if a prophet - Mohammed for example - is actually a prophet and it would be unreasonable to believe that he is and it would be unreasonable to believe what he says. That’s why I can’t possibly be a muslim if #1 is true.

If 2 is true, then that means we can’t trust prophets AND Allah is less intelligent than humans. In which case, He isn’t really that much of a god.

3 is pretty self explanatory.

 

[hasantas]

My belief and understanding is hell was created by the actions of satan and other angels. Hell is primarily an eternal state of separation between God and those creatures—angels and humans—who have permanently chosen to reject him. God created free will, which is good, but hell is the result of the abuse of free will. God did not create hell; he only allowed for its possibility. God didn’t create hell to begin with, that would contradict his nature… what hell is, is denying God and staying away from God on purpose… God created a possibility for that,
Devil created hell himself when he denied the supreme power of God and wanted to become God…

In Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth. Notice that there is no mention of hell.

“Eternal damnation”, therefore, is not attributed to God’s initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God’s judgement ratifies this state.

The Bible tells us that God is love. In 1 John 4:16 We have come to know and to believe in the love God has for us.
God is love, and whoever remains in love remains in God and God in him. God cares about us and seeks our well being and security. His thoughts about us are infinite and His love is too. This is why God does not desire that anyone go to hell, but that all come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:9 )

Matthew 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but condemned them to the chains of Tartarus and handed them over to be kept for judgment

The issue of illness/sickness, disasters is always a difficult one to deal with. The key is remembering that God’s ways are higher than our ways (Isaiah 55:9). When we are suffering with a sickness, disease, or injury, we usually focus solely on our own suffering. In the midst of a trial of sickness, it is very difficult to focus on what good God might bring about as a result. God can bring about good from any situation. Many people look back on times of sickness as times when they grew closer to God, learned to trust Him more, and/or learned how to truly value life. This is the perspective God has because He is sovereign and knows the end result.

As some of the Saints thanked God for their sufferings because it brought them closer to him.

In Psalm 119:67-71, and 75 - " Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I hold to your promise. You are good and do what is good;
teach me your statutes. The arrogant smear me with lies, but I keep your precepts with all my heart. Their hearts are gross and fat;
as for me, your law is my delight. It was good for me to be afflicted, in order to learn your statutes.
75 I know, LORD, that your judgments are righteous;
The author of Psalm 119 was looking at suffering from God’s perspective. It was good for him to be afflicted. It was faithfulness that caused God to afflict him. The result of the affliction was so that he could learn God’s decrees and obey His Word.

You try to acquit God because you think creating Hell is an evil action. Firstly creating Hell is not evil but commitings sins which conclude Hell is evil. God create fire and we use fire by very helpful ways just to cook, get heat etc. But if someone abuse fire to fire home or himself so that action is evil.

Notice that to acquit God you associate other creator with God. If someone else could create anything so there would not be any sense to call God as creator. If satans could create anything so they could create humanbeing into Hell initially. Satans have no force above human but satans have deceiving and plots.

Is there any other creator except God? Please reply very clearly?

Or do you think satans built Hell without wish of God and so satans cause people to get into Hell? If someone can intervene actions of God so I will have not credence for such God anymore.

If satans created Hell so I will ask God why he did not prevent such thing(Indeed nothing can create anything except God)! If God did not create Hell but someone other did and God could not prevent that so that situation is more evil than creating it byself!

And you cited that verse:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

So do you think devils and evil agels(!) created Hell for themselves? It seems another person had created Hell for devils and his angels. Because it is said prepared for devils and his angels which mean that creating is by other.

Just one thing Muslims want from Christians: Do not say anything which imply as if there is another creator or god excep God!

 

[MartinJordan]

You try to acquit God because you think creating Hell is an evil action. Firstly creating Hell is not evil but commitings sins which conclude Hell is evil. God create fire and we use fire by very helpful ways just to cook, get heat etc. But if someone abuse fire to fire home or himself so that action is evil.

Notice that to acquit God you associate other creator with God. If someone else could create anything so there would not be any sense to call God as creator. If satans could create anything so they could create humanbeing into Hell initially. Satans have no force above human but satans have deceiving and plots.

Is there any other creator except God? Please reply very clearly?

Or do you think satans built Hell without wish of God and so satans cause people to get into Hell? If someone can intervene actions of God so I will have not credence for such God anymore.

If satans created Hell so I will ask God why he did not prevent such thing(Indeed nothing can create anything except God)! If God did not create Hell but someone other did and God could not prevent that so that situation is more evil than creating it byself!

And you cited that verse:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

So do you think devils and evil agels(!) created Hell for themselves? It seems another person had created Hell for devils and his angels. Because it is said prepared for devils and his angels which mean that creating is by other.

Just one thing Muslims want from Christians: Do not say anything which imply as if there is another creator or god excep God!

Again you are disrespecting your elder Faith. Please stop it. God is One.

Peace be with you.

MJ

 

[hasantas]

=Cheiron;14085487Natural laws are descriptions of regularities in nature. These descriptions are based on observation and experiments.

The first reason I expect a mathematical formula in the Quran is because mathematics allow for unrivaled precision. There is ambiguity in words, but there is no ambiguity in mathematics. My second reason is that humans are able to make mathematical formulas. If Allah has an equal or better intelligence than humans, then He should have been able to reveal some sophisticated mathematics to Mohammed.

Yes yes. Believers worship God through formulas!

These verses merely say that days are different for Allah than for human. It doesn’t include mass and gravity, which are key to Einsteins theories.

You said relativity not gravity!

That argument sounds very strange. Other muslims have said to me that the Quran is universal, that is: not dependent on space and time. Now you’re telling me that Allah tailored his revelation to the people receiving it at a specific time in a specific place. I’m willing to believe you, but that does raise the question why the Quran is relevant in the 21st century if it was made for and revelead to 6th century Arabs? Ofcourse I agree with you that the Quran is not a scientific book.

You do not understand what I said. I said if Qur’an had given so details so the first century people would not understand. Qur’an include and surround all times.

This sounds more like poetic language about Allah’s supposed greatness. The words “is like a” is a clear indication of that.

You have a free will.

Stars set → therefore they have orbits. I don’t see that connection at all.

It is a swear for place of stars. You may look at different interpretations.

Read the context. This is a prediction of what happens on Judgement day.

Qur’an is universal so verse may point several facts.

I don’t see the connection between a “piercing star” and black holes.

Black holes absorb stars.

Perhaps I should tell you a bit more about myself. You’re not the first muslim I’ve talked to about these matters. Other muslims have often brought up prophecies that proved the truthfulness of the Quran. Yet when I investigated these prophecies, they were often very, very ambiguous and vague. Most of them do not include a timetable, which I regard as a sign of weakness, because it allows people to say that a particular prophecy has yet to be fulfilled.

Today, scientists make predictions that are far more concrete than any prophesy I’ve ever come across. They make sure that their predictions are verifiable and falsifiable. Some of their predictions were right. I already mentioned Einstein. Halley’s comet is another such astonishing scientific prediction. They predicted particular events would happen on a particular day - and they were vindicated.

No prophet has ever made such a verifiable, falsifiable, unambiguous prediction and been vindicated. Which means:

1: that Allah is deliberately giving humans unverifiable ambiguous predictions,
2: that He isn’t able to be as precise as humans, or
3: that He doesn’t exist and ‘prophets’ made stuff up.

If 1, then we can’t possibly know if a prophet - Mohammed for example - is actually a prophet and it would be unreasonable to believe that he is and it would be unreasonable to believe what he says. That’s why I can’t possibly be a muslim if #1 is true.

If 2 is true, then that means we can’t trust prophets AND Allah is less intelligent than humans. In which case, He isn’t really that much of a god.

3 is pretty self explanatory.

The evidences of faith is like light. You cannot hold light with your hands. But you should point your heart towards light. You heart is a mirror for light of faith. But if you had defiled mirror by sins and doubts so you must start from that. And some evidences are like air. You cannot see or hold but you feel. So set free your conscience and heart to be able to feel.

God create everything in miraculous order and human relaize that order and call that natural laws and later claim to be more celever than God! Is there anything more clever than human universe? As much I know no. But you assume that nature itself is very clever than human. So you assume nature as a creator or God. Do any force or law or cosmic have life or mind or conscience? But you assume that those unconscious and blind matters and laws can have attributes of a creator by chances.

 

[hasantas]

Again you are disrespecting your elder Faith. Please stop it. God is One.

Peace be with you.

MJ

But Jimmy said that satans created Hell! Do that not means there are another creators?

 

[MartinJordan]

But Jimmy said that satans created Hell! Do that not means there are another creators?

You will need to understand what we mean by Hell first. Are you interested to learn?

MJ

 

[arthra]

I think the following truly is one of the most beautiful Surihs in the Qur’an:

*35. Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the East nor of the West, whose Oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He will to His Light. Allah doth set forth Parables for men: and Allah doth know all things.

1. (Lit is such a light) in houses, which Allah hath permitted to be raised to honor; for the celebration, in them of His name: in them is He glorified in the mornings and in the evenings, (again and again) –
2. By men whom neither traffic nor merchandise can divert from the Remembrance of Allah, nor from regular Prayer, nor from the practice of regular Charity: their (only) fear is for the Day when hearts and eyes will be transformed (in a world wholly new) –
3. That Allah may reward them according to the best of their deeds, and add even more for them out of His Grace: for Allah doth provide for those whom He will, without measure.
4. But the Unbelievers – their deeds are like a mirage in sandy deserts, which the man parched with thirst mistakes for water; until when he comes up to it, he finds it to be nothing: but he finds Allah (ever) with him, and Allah will pay him his account: and Allah is swift in taking account.
5. Or (the Unbelievers’ state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! for any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light! `

*~ The Surih of An Nur (Light) (24th Surih)

translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali

 

[hasantas]

You will need to understand what we mean by Hell first. Are you interested to learn?

MJ

Why not.

 

[MartinJordan]

Why not.

So start a thread. We’ll do it step by step.

But as far as this thread is concerned, Im still waiting why you skip Jesus’ words? And the name of the Bible you use to support the Quran.

Peace be with you.

MJ

 

[JimmyDFG]

You try to acquit God because you think creating Hell is an evil action. Firstly creating Hell is not evil but commitings sins which conclude Hell is evil. God create fire and we use fire by very helpful ways just to cook, get heat etc. But if someone abuse fire to fire home or himself so that action is evil.

Notice that to acquit God you associate other creator with God. If someone else could create anything so there would not be any sense to call God as creator. If satans could create anything so they could create humanbeing into Hell initially. Satans have no force above human but satans have deceiving and plots.

Is there any other creator except God? Please reply very clearly?

Or do you think satans built Hell without wish of God and so satans cause people to get into Hell? If someone can intervene actions of God so I will have not credence for such God anymore.

If satans created Hell so I will ask God why he did not prevent such thing(Indeed nothing can create anything except God)! If God did not create Hell but someone other did and God could not prevent that so that situation is more evil than creating it byself!

And you cited that verse:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

So do you think devils and evil agels(!) created Hell for themselves? It seems another person had created Hell for devils and his angels. Because it is said prepared for devils and his angels which mean that creating is by other.

Just one thing Muslims want from Christians: Do not say anything which imply as if there is another creator or god excep God!

Maybe I should be a little more clear. As I mention before in Genesis 1:1 there is no mention of hell. We see no reference to hell until after the fall of some of the angels. My belief is that yes it was God that created hell BUT it was satan’s ( notice the apostrophe )actions that was the cause of the creation. His actions…his doing. His doing was the creation of hell…created by God

But if someone abuse fire to fire home or himself so that action is evil.

This would be called a sin

Is there any other creator except God? Please reply very clearly? .

Perhaps you can answer your own question. As it has a “We” for the creation of man and the heavens and earth.
Who would be the “We” be for the creation of mankind? Angels do not give life or create life.

As you said yourself hasantas…
“Notice that to acquit God you associate other creator with God. If someone else could create anything so there would not be any sense to call God as creator.”
Maybe you should look over 51:47 and 21:30 of the quran

“Just one thing Muslims want from Christians: Do not say anything which imply as if there is another creator or god excep God!”

We do say there is only one God. You don’t understand the Bible

 

[Cheiron]

Yes yes. Believers worship God through formulas!

You completely missed the point. The point is that humans can do mathematics and Allah cannot, therefore humans are smarter than Allah. If Allah had revealed to Mohammed some sophisticated mathematical formula’s that would be confirmed by science hundreds of years later, *that *would be impressive.

*You said relativity not gravity! *
Special relativity is about the bending of space and time (which are two sides of the same coin) by gravity. If the verses you quoted were about special relativity, then whoever wrote the Qu’ran had no clue whatsoever about it. Which I think is indeed the case, because it was written about 1300 years before Einstein.

You do not understand what I said. I said if Qur’an had given so details so the first century people would not understand. Qur’an include and surround all times.

Two points:
1: If Allah had revealed details that could not possibly be comprehended by 6th century Arabs, but were confirmed by science in the 20th century, then that would be impressive.

2: You contradict yourself. You said that the Qu’ran is a universal book. That means it’s applicable to all people of all times and all places. Not only to the 6th century Arab to whom it was revealed, but also to 15th century Aztecs, 18th century Japanese nobility or 21st century Swedes.

And that means you can’t claim that the Qu’ran was suited to what 6th century Arabs could understand. Is the Qu’ran a universal book or tailor made for Arabs? Pick one.

You have a free will.

Completely irrelevant to the verses.

It is a swear for place of stars. You may look at different interpretations.

Qur’an is universal so verse may point several facts.

Black holes absorb stars.

I know black holes can absorb stars. I don’t know how you could derive black holes from the idea of a ‘piercing star’. All the Quranic verses are so vague! Why couldn’t Allah just say: “There are massive black holes in the universe, distorting space and time around them.”

The evidences of faith is like light. You cannot hold light with your hands. But you should point your heart towards light. You heart is a mirror for light of faith. But if you had defiled mirror by sins and doubts so you must start from that. And some evidences are like air. You cannot see or hold but you feel. So set free your conscience and heart to be able to feel.

God create everything in miraculous order and human relaize that order and call that natural laws and later claim to be more celever than God! Is there anything more clever than human universe? As much I know no. But you assume that nature itself is very clever than human. So you assume nature as a creator or God. Do any force or law or cosmic have life or mind or conscience? But you assume that those unconscious and blind matters and laws can have attributes of a creator by chances.

Evidence is not light, nor air. Evidence would be a prophecy that actually came true. I told you about the difficulties I have with Quranic prophesy and if you had answered them, then you would have put me on the road to Islam. Instead, you completely ignored everything I wrote about prophesy. So I’m going to leave it at this.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

Perhaps you can answer your own question. As it has a “We” for the creation of man and the heavens and earth. Who would be the “We” be for the creation of mankind? Angels do not give life or create life.

It’s the Royal “We” in Arabic, not meant to be considered plural.

 

[hasantas]

What evidence can you post demonstrating Muhammad had any attributes at any level? In my opinion a statement without evidence is evidence the statement is without evidence.

Jesus as a man could control the weather, Mt8:25-27. Walked on water, Mt14:25-33. Raise the dead, cure the sick, Mt4:23-25. Restore sight to the blind, the lame walked, Mt11:4-6. Those gifts can still be given to any person to whom the Holy Spirit wills.

;]

Yes Jesus performed many miracles and also Muhammad did too. One of them is Miraj. The Miraj is evidence of that Muhammad had received all attributes at most high level.

 

[jlhargus]

Yes Jesus performed many miracles and also Muhammad did too. One of them is Miraj. The Miraj is evidence of that Muhammad had received all attributes at most high level.

You say the quran is miraculous without evidence now you say Muhammad did miracles without evidence. What convincing evidence can you produce Hasantas?

 

[jlhargus]

It’s the Royal “We” in Arabic, not meant to be considered plural.

Doesn’t the royal “We” imply the monarch speaks for themselves and their country?

 

[hasantas]

=Cheiron;14087722]You completely missed the point. The point is that humans can do mathematics and Allah cannot, therefore humans are smarter than Allah. If Allah had revealed to Mohammed some sophisticated mathematical formula’s that would be confirmed by science hundreds of years later, *that *would be impressive.

First of all the main goal of Qur’an is religious but not science or economy or politics. Qur’an give deatils in religion and imply other subjects are secondary. But Qur’an point other issues to support main aim. If Muhammad had issued just some formulas He would be known merely a scientist. But His duty was not that. And if Muhammad had given such formulas so there would be no need to invent these formulas again. These formulas would need to be proved just. And I think unbelievers would say that Muhammad was a very great scientist!

All human are not interest in biology or chemistry or physics or maths etc. But all people can be interest in faith because every one need faith. Qur’an give in details which is most required.

Qur’an say universe expand. Every one can understand that because it is general. But if you convey that through some mathematical formulas so most of people would not understand. Qur’an was revealed for all people.

There is no a formula for expanding of universe because it is not constant but get accelerated. So is there a need for so deatils? Qur’an make such prophecy which can be proved just such so advanced technological progress and formulas. So do that not mean that Qur’an also had point these developing and such complex formulas?

*You said relativity not gravity! *

Special relativity is about the bending of space and time (which are two sides of the same coin) by gravity. If the verses you quoted were about special relativity, then whoever wrote the Qu’ran had no clue whatsoever about it. Which I think is indeed the case, because it was written about 1300 years before Einstein.

The relativity means the the lapse of time is different for distinct references systems. The speed or gravity may cause that but the issue is that the lapse of time is different and Qur’an point that.

 

[hasantas]

[Cheiron;14087722]

Two points:
1: If Allah had revealed details that could not possibly be comprehended by 6th century Arabs, but were confirmed by science in the 20th century, then that would be impressive.

2: You contradict yourself. You said that the Qu’ran is a universal book. That means it’s applicable to all people of all times and all places. Not only to the 6th century Arab to whom it was revealed, but also to 15th century Aztecs, 18th century Japanese nobility or 21st century Swedes.

And that means you can’t claim that the Qu’ran was suited to what 6th century Arabs could understand. Is the Qu’ran a universal book or tailor made for Arabs? Pick one.

Qur’an is for all people for all times. If Qur’an had conveyed a statement which could not be understood for any time so that is not advisable. Qur’an is universal so Qur’an was not just for some people for very centuries ago. You should get that point Qur’an had made a prophecy which was proved in the course of time. That make Qur’an to be words of eternal God who can know every times and sciences.

I know black holes can absorb stars. I don’t know how you could derive black holes from the idea of a ‘piercing star’. All the Quranic verses are so vague! Why couldn’t Allah just say: “There are massive black holes in the universe, distorting space and time around them.”

God could write La İlaha İllallah in the space but that is not suitable for sake of exam. Humanbeing is in an exam. If God had given answers so there would not be need for an exam.

Evidence is not light, nor air. Evidence would be a prophecy that actually came true. I told you about the difficulties I have with Quranic prophesy and if you had answered them, then you would have put me on the road to Islam. Instead, you completely ignored everything I wrote about prophesy. So I’m going to leave it at this.

What I tried to express is that the issues of Qur’an and religion are not through mathematical formulas and materials. There is no a formula for faith. It is through way of heart and conscience. So you cannot understand the issues of Qur’an just by maths or science. Qur’an do not conflict the laws of universe but Qur’an is beyond of that.

 

[JimmyDFG]

It’s the Royal “We” in Arabic, not meant to be considered plural.

I find this hard to believe because in verses such as 66:22 of the quran
"And [the example of] Mary, the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity, so We blew into [her garment] through Our angel, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His scriptures and was of the devoutly obedient.

Who is the “Our” in the above verse? It cannot be the angels because it says “Our angel”. Nor is the “We” an angel

Also in 45:6
“These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement after Allah and His verses will they believe?”

Who would the “We” be in the above verse? Since its the “We” that’s speaking of allah. The Royal We doesn’t imply

 

[zamyrabyrd]

I find this hard to believe because in verses such as 66:22 of the quran
"And [the example of] Mary, the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity, so We blew into [her garment] through Our angel, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His scriptures and was of the devoutly obedient.
Who is the “Our” in the above verse? It cannot be the angels because it says “Our angel”. Nor is the “We” an angel.
Also in 45:6
“These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement after Allah and His verses will they believe?”
Who would the “We” be in the above verse? Since its the “We” that’s speaking of allah. The Royal We doesn’t imply

The issue is linguistic here, no need to get tangled up in modern English usage.

from Wikipedia:
Several prominent epithets of the Bible describe the Jewish God in plural terms: Elohim, Adonai, and El Shaddai. Many Christian scholars, including the likes of Augustine of Hippo, have seen the use of the plural and grammatically singular verb forms as support for the doctrine of the Trinity. Judaism rejects the notion of the Trinity and argues instead that these cases are merely examples of the majestic plural. Secular scholars consider these forms to be holdovers from early Israelite/Canaanite beliefs, before the development of monolatrism/monotheism. Similarly, God in the Qur‘an employs the Arabic pronoun nahnu (“We”) or its associated verb suffix in many verses.