The Book Which is Most being read:Qur'an

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For instance Sura 10;94. Why would allay tell Muhammad to consult the people of the book if he has doubts about his message.

Many may counter that the scriptures were corrupted. Yet this is impossible as stated in Sura 6;115 and Sura 18;27. Allah says none can change his words. Many say that refers specifically to the Koran yet it does say Koran it says his words.

Humor me I’ll explain.
 
I also explain many issues but I think you ignore.

Greek text is the translation form from Aramaic. We cannot know the fact as long as we have not original text of revelation.

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14

As you see it is not clear “Holy Spirit”. And also there is parallel verse in Qur’an.

22-You will not find a people who believe in Allah and the Last Day having affection for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, even if they were their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their kindred. Those – He has decreed within their hearts faith and supported them with spirit from Him. And We will admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they abide eternally. Allah is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him – those are the party of Allah. Unquestionably, the party of Allah – they are the successful. Al-Müjadillah (58)

The spirit may be interpreted in many ways.

But just notice that God is not used to send a spirit or an angel to preach people. Is that not clear enough?. Ah…Ofcourse if you can think that God had incarnated into human and preach! Hımm… Then you can think in any exotica way. And if Holy Spirit is something which can be send or posted or revealed hence how could that Holy Spirit be God? And yet that Holy spirit had taken form of a dove! Is that dove a god like Jesus? Because Jesus is assumed to be human form of God!

All these are not issues of Thread but you say as if I ignore what you say. Then I ask why do you ignore about all I explain?
Jesus is still speaking. John 14:17 continues.

I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

“Come now; let us leave."

So it’s clear verses avoided. Jesus’ peace was given. I’m praying you’ll admit it soon and listen to the Way The Truth and The Life, Jesus who is Lord and Saviour of mankind including you Hasantas. 🙂

Peace be with you.

MJ
 
I found the quranic verses I’m referring too. 🙂

The first verse
3;55

The second verse
61;14

Both these verses

In a nut shell the first verse is that many believed Jesus’s message the Quran calls them Muslims and some did not believe his message.

The second verse I reference mentions how allay would make the believers dominant until the day of judgement or resurrection. Now, even though the Quran teachings on Jesus are opposite what the Catholic Church believes and professes. I think the Quran is pointing to the Catholic Church for there is now other Christian church that’s been dominant for so long.

Just my opinion have a happy EID.
 
I found the quranic verses I’m referring too. 🙂

The first verse
3;55

The second verse
61;14

Both these verses

In a nut shell the first verse is that many believed Jesus’s message the Quran calls them Muslims and some did not believe his message.

The second verse I reference mentions how allay would make the believers dominant until the day of judgement or resurrection. Now, even though the Quran teachings on Jesus are opposite what the Catholic Church believes and professes. I think the Quran is pointing to the Catholic Church for there is now other Christian church that’s been dominant for so long.

Just my opinion have a happy EID.
You really don’t understand or know Catholicism at all , if thats what you believe
 
Do you think there will be a time when the Pope would be allowed to read the Bible in the kaaba? Or even be allowed in mecca?
Don’t try bringing in a Bible to Saudi Arabia, much less attempt to build a church there. Similar difficulties exist in the rest of the Muslim dominant countries.
 
Jimmy,

To be sure what I believe isn’t in Islam. I’m a Catholic after all. Yet what I’m getting at is to help bring muslims to us not leave them in darkness. If they seriously study the Quran they’ll realize they have to make a choice. To go to moderate interpretation or a more literal one. The moderate view is tolerant in societies with low Muslim populations. The literal view can can be beneficial if viewed in the modern context but dangerous if viewed to return to the past.
 
Please understand I’m not trying to be alarmist. I forgot the saint’s name who said this but. The quote goes something like this,"to study history is to cease to be Protestant. " So if researching church history points and brings others to the Catholic Church why wouldn’t studying the Quran and Islamic history make one more sympathetic to that strain of Islam that spread through the sword.
 
Please understand I’m not trying to be alarmist. I forgot the saint’s name who said this but. The quote goes something like this,"to study history is to cease to be Protestant. " So if researching church history points and brings others to the Catholic Church why wouldn’t studying the Quran and Islamic history make one more sympathetic to that strain of Islam that spread through the sword.
Protestants don’t say Jesus is not God, so not sure where you are going with this. Islam rejects Jesus’ true nature (and I know this because I have Muslim friends who tell me straight that Jesus is not God).

But following our Scripture and understanding our Faith, already should make us feel sympathetic. More time spent with Our Lord, will make us more charitable. I think Islam has to learn from Catholicism, but we as Catholic must show our unconditional love first. because God is Love.

MJ
 
Hasantas one of the points I raised earlier which I didn’t see you respond to, is that your argument essentially leaves the apostles comfortless. That is do you recognise that the words of Jesus you are appealing to take place within a context in the book of John itself. Specifically part in contention begins in chapter 13, where Jesus has gathered his apostles together and is serving them by washing their feat and then when Judas leaves (John 13:30) Jesus begins to preach to his faithful disciples whom he knows will testify about him.

Your interpretation if we accept it, means that Jesus is promising the apostles Muhammad. The problem is that Muhammad came long after the apostles died, yet in 14:18 Christ says he will not leave them orphaned. Does it not make more sense that Jesus is reassuring his apostles that the comforter (who Christ says is the Holy Spirit in 14:26) will remind them of everything he has said to them? That he will bring them into all truth?

If the apostles didn’t receive the comforter, because the comforter is Muhammad then the apostles were comfortless. The whole church was comfortless and when Muhammad died I suppose the Muslim world is now comfortless. The talk Jesus gives his disciples is deeply intimate, Jesus is conveying who he is to them, what he is going to do for them after he has going. Your interpretation seemingly has Jesus do nothing for the apostles and why should we believe that Jesus did nothing for them and subsequently the Church which they spread?
Jesus conveyed the way of consolation and salvation. If someone would follow the disciplines and words of Jesus so he shall be comfort.

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. John 15.

So there is no need for any addition to preachs of Jesus for Disciples. Indeed did Discpiles add(as revelation) anything after Jesus?

By same way if Muslims go on following disciplines of Muhammad so they are never comfortless. Do you follow Jesus or others?

Jesus say many times “spirit of truth”. Spirit may has different meanings. Here:
a. A force or principle believed to animate living beings.
b. A force or principle believed to animate humans and often to endure after departing from the body of a person at death; the soul.
2. Spirit The Holy Spirit.
3. A supernatural being, as:
a. An angel or demon.
b. A being inhabiting or embodying a particular place, object, or natural phenomenon.
c. A fairy or sprite.
4.
a. The part of a human associated with the mind, will, and feelings: Though unable to join us today, they are with us in spirit.
b. The essential nature of a person or group.
5. A person as characterized by a stated quality: He is a proud spirit.
6.
a. An inclination or tendency of a specified kind: Her actions show a generous spirit.
b. A pervasive or essential attitude, quality, or principle: the spirit of 1776.
7.
a. An attitude marked by enthusiasm, energy, or courage: sang with spirit; troops that fought with spirit.
b. spirits A mood or emotional state: The guests were in high spirits. His sour spirits put a damper on the gathering.
c. Strong loyalty or dedication: team spirit.
8. The actual though unstated sense or significance of something: the spirit of the law.
9. often spirits (used with a sing. verb) An alcohol solution of an essential or volatile substance.
10. spirits An alcoholic beverage, especially distilled liquor.
tr.v. spir·it·ed, spir·it·ing, spir·its
  1. To carry off mysteriously or secretly: The documents had been spirited away.
  2. To impart courage, animation, or determination to; inspirit.
Muhammad conveyed all truths about God and religion. He never lied. So Muhammad was spirit of truth.
 
“The oldest extant copy of a complete Bible is an early 4th-century parchment book preserved in the Vatican Library, and known as the Codex Vaticanus. The oldest copy of the Tanakh in Hebrew and Aramaic dates to the 10th century AD. The oldest copy of a complete Latin (Vulgate) Bible is the Codex Amiatinus, dating from the 8th century”

How do you know that this is not from the original?
Is there an islamic verse of the New Testament?
The exact meaning is very likely to change through translation. Jesus was used to speak Aramaic. So the original revelation is unfortunately absent. Were Jesus used to speak in Greek?

The meaning may change by translation. For instance Jesus called God as Father. And that is not literally but metaphorical. Everyone can call God as Father:

9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Matthew 23
 
" Ah…Ofcourse if you can think that God had incarnated into human and preach! "
If you can think about it hasantas, What Jesus said the Holy Spirit/ “Advocate” would do in John 14:15-26 the Holy Spirit has done. Whereas muhammad preach a totally different revelation.
As Jesus said “remind you of all that * told you”

.*

God notice what Jesus said:

6-And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, “O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad.” But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, “This is obvious magic.” As-Saff(61)

Jesus preached people to believe in one God and belive in the life to come and in prophets and in angels and in Heavens and in Hell and in judgement day and to worship God and repent for sins and do good deeds and behave people in good way and to be generous to faults etc. Those are all what Muhammad did!
 
46- And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, “We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him.” Al-Ankabut(29)
 
hasantas,
IgnoatianPhil and MartinJordan had asked you very good questions. I’m looking forward to what your reply will be. Can you also please answer my question…
If muhammad was to testify and glorify Jesus, why did the “comforter”/muhammad deny the Crucifixion? There are Jewish and Roman reports of the Crucifixion of Jesus. The Holy Spirits/“Advocate” testifies to this.
Qur’an do not deny Crucifixion. Qur’an says the man who got crucifixed was not Jesus but he looked like Jesus. So every records would write in that way. All right did Jesus say anything about that He had raisen from death? The story is that Jesus was affirmed by God that Jesus would be arrested and judged for dead penalty. Jesus was not sure if He would be saved from that but He wanted from Father(God):

41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,

42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Luke 22

So before Crucifixion Jesus thought as if He would be killed. Jesus had no clear knowledges about conclusions so He kneeled down(Sajdah) and prayed God to be saved. And Jesus declared that it is will of God to decide it. God had decided to save Jesus and we learn that from Qur’an!
 
"He has decreed within their hearts faith and supported them with spirit from Him. "
Again this is a double standard. Allah has supported them with spirit from him?
Why is it when Jesus said that Spirit of Truth/Holy Spirit/ Advocate will come, you believe it to be muhammad the “comforter”? But allah gives a spirit from himself that decreed’s in their hearts and also supports?
Spirit is generally interpreted as Jibril(angel Gabriel or Holy Spirit). But for comforter it is said “spirit of truth”. And that is not same as it is used for Holy Spirit. Before Jesus informed about Paraclete it was usual to say just Holy Spirit for Gabriel. So why would Jesus call Holy Spirit as Comforter or Paraclete? Jesus said another paraclete but not Holy Spirit who is almost known very well. Jesus said spirit of truth will preach people. So how a spirit would preach people? Muhammad is spirit of truth by all manners. Muhammad was always true and said always true and declared all trues! Muhammad is among us but a spirit could not be among us.
 
46- And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, “We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him.” Al-Ankabut(29)
Who are the people of Scripture?

And again you’ve avoided so much of Jesus’ Holy Words.

Peace be with you.

MJ
 
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