The Book Which is Most being read:Qur'an

[zamyrabyrd]

Thank you for your effort to understand Muslims. Muslims do not reject Torah or Gospel. But there are many comments and statements of writers in both OT and NT. Sometimes those comments are recognised as revelation itself. That is assumed as corruption.

With all due respect the verses in the Quran that mirror the Old or New Testaments that are acknowledged as revelation, could not be “corrupted”. The books of the Bible are various in content: poetry as in the Song of Solomon, wisdom as in the Ecclesiastes, songs of praise as in Psalms, and so on. The problem for Christians alike is to take everything literally when it is not meant to be so. The Bible must be understood in context and that requires some education.

Before the invention of printing, the common person was dependent on the clergy to interpret it. A danger for those without some contextual view is literalism, mistaking the word for the message. An example would mean having to obey all the priestly proscriptions in Leviticus. Some Orthodox Jews feel that it is impossible to change even one letter of the Law. As in usual flawed human communication, typos can be ignored and even forgiven.

 

[jimkhong]

The Bible must be understood in context and that requires some education.

The Bible has a context because it is written by humans, albeit under the guidance of God. It was written by humans with a human background with human intentions (still within God’s plans of course) for human audience with human background happening within human history. The Bible can be placed within the human story because it is written in a human context, through which we interpret God’s plans.

Reading from an non-Muslim scholarship perspective (and even with the eyes of a person of faith) the Quran is obviously existing within a human context. More so when some of the stories are paralleled with those in the Bible, and if those stories in the Bible have a human historical context, then at least that part of the Quran must have a human context.

The problem is that for Muslims, the Quran has no context. Since God in his timelessness wrote it then obviously it must have happened outside of human history. If so, there cannot be any questioning of the intention behind the writing of the Quran as that would be questioning why God wrote the Quran. And man, in his insignificance cannot question or seek to understand the mind of God.

That is why while Christians have Bible study where we learn (for instance) the frame of mind when Paul wrote 1Cor and the events in Corith at that time as well as the sociopolitical background in both the Church as well as in Greece at that time, there cannot be any similar studies on the Quran. Quran studies is limited to the study of 7th century Arabic together with the philology. Any study of the life in 7th century Arabic is limited only to the need to explain the meaning of words.

“It is not permissible for one who holds faith in Allah and the Day of Judgment to speak on the Quran without learning classical Arabic.” - Mujahid ibn Jabr

Tafsir (interpretation) in Islam does not involve full hermeunetics and exegesis like Biblical studies do. Tafsir is very much a straight understanding what God means in the Quran and the words are taken in isolation from the human historical context at the time of writing - the only possible context is the broader context of the Quran and the better scholars would be able to read Quranic verses in conjunction with other verses and explain them together.

Interestingly, I was told that Muslim scholars in the Al-Azhar University Cairo often approach Jesuit Islamic scholars stationed there to help them perform some hermeneutical studies on specific passages in the Quran because they are not allowed to do it (presumably because it is counter to Islamic beliefs)

It is frustrating when discussing with non-scholars (and that includes most of those armed with Islamic studies certificates), is that they respond to a point I raise on one Quranic verse by just referring to another verse without dealing with the verse raised.

That is why it is difficult for someone like hasantas to understand what we mean by the context of a scripture and expect them to explain verses in a broader context, whether just the Quranic context or the historical context.

 

[MartinJordan]

The Bible has a context because it is written by humans, albeit under the guidance of God. It was written by humans with a human background with human intentions (still within God’s plans of course) for human audience with human background happening within human history. The Bible can be placed within the human story because it is written in a human context, through which we interpret God’s plans.

Reading from an non-Muslim scholarship perspective (and even with the eyes of a person of faith) the Quran is obviously existing within a human context. More so when some of the stories are paralleled with those in the Bible, and if those stories in the Bible have a human historical context, then at least that part of the Quran must have a human context.

The problem is that for Muslims, the Quran has no context. Since God in his timelessness wrote it then obviously it must have happened outside of human history. If so, there cannot be any questioning of the intention behind the writing of the Quran as that would be questioning why God wrote the Quran. And man, in his insignificance cannot question or seek to understand the mind of God.

That is why while Christians have Bible study where we learn (for instance) the frame of mind when Paul wrote 1Cor and the events in Corith at that time as well as the sociopolitical background in both the Church as well as in Greece at that time, there cannot be any similar studies on the Quran. Quran studies is limited to the study of 7th century Arabic together with the philology. Any study of the life in 7th century Arabic is limited only to the need to explain the meaning of words.

“It is not permissible for one who holds faith in Allah and the Day of Judgment to speak on the Quran without learning classical Arabic.” - Mujahid ibn Jabr

Tafsir (interpretation) in Islam does not involve full hermeunetics and exegesis like Biblical studies do. Tafsir is very much a straight understanding what God means in the Quran and the words are taken in isolation from the human historical context at the time of writing - the only possible context is the broader context of the Quran and the better scholars would be able to read Quranic verses in conjunction with other verses and explain them together.

Interestingly, I was told that Muslim scholars in the Al-Azhar University Cairo often approach Jesuit Islamic scholars stationed there to help them perform some hermeneutical studies on specific passages in the Quran because they are not allowed to do it (presumably because it is counter to Islamic beliefs)

It is frustrating when discussing with non-scholars (and that includes most of those armed with Islamic studies certificates), is that they respond to a point I raise on one Quranic verse by just referring to another verse without dealing with the verse raised.

That is why it is difficult for someone like hasantas to understand what we mean by the context of a scripture and expect them to explain verses in a broader context, whether just the Quranic context or the historical context.

In other words the Quran verses aren’t alive and active?

MJ

 

[Catholic_farmer]

Many of our comments to the OP, including my own, were written with the attitude of having nothing more than a spirited debate on our respective faiths.

How profound it is that in many countries around the world, our comments could get us sentenced to prison, or even executed, for blasphemy.

I do hope the OP is enjoying this debate as much as we are, but I am still glad we are anonymous.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

Interestingly, I was told that Muslim scholars in the Al-Azhar University Cairo often approach Jesuit Islamic scholars stationed there to help them perform some hermeneutical studies on specific passages in the Quran because they are not allowed to do it (presumably because it is counter to Islamic beliefs)
It is frustrating when discussing with non-scholars (and that includes most of those armed with Islamic studies certificates), is that they respond to a point I raise on one Quranic verse by just referring to another verse without dealing with the verse raised…

Circular reasoning is precisely the reason for the lack of scientific progress in that part of the world for a millennia or so.

 

[hasantas]

But did muhammad know and understand Aramaic?

What God had revealed in Aramaic so later revealed Muhammad that in Arabic. That is so simple. God could not misinterpret

 

[hasantas]

We do not reject Islam totally. We worship the same God.

Does the Quran say most Christians reject Islam?

MJ

Most of Christians do otherwise they would take heed to Qur’an. Qur’an call Christians to reconcile in that believe in one God and do not say Three. And Qur’an notice that doctrine is not from scripture(God).

Now Martin you are so hard which make me not to discuss so further.

 

[hasantas]

Oh, and a word about why only one Gospel. It would seem that Mohammad’s understanding of the Christian scriptures is not from any supernatural coaching but from a Christian priest by the name of Waraqa bin Neufal. Waraqa was an uncle (other sources gave other similar family relationships) of Khatijah, Mohammad’s first wife. Mohammad has often declared Waraqa as an expert in Christian and Jewish scriptures. Waraqa was also the first person that Khatijah and Mohammad went to after Mohammad’s encounter with the angel Jibril in the cave at Hira - he must obviously have great influence over Mohammad. Waraqa went on to declare the encounter as divine and Mohammad as an authentic messenger.

So, who was Waraqa? Muslims held that he was an Assyrian while most non-Muslim sources state he was an Ebionite. What difference does it make? The Assyrian Church still exists today, headed by the Patriarch of Babylon. The Catholic Church has recently declared that no significant doctrinal difference exists with this ancient church. I would think that Waraqa is more likely to be an Ebionite, a heretical Chriistian group which is extinct today. Ebionites are like a halfway house between Judaism and Christianity. They believe in Jesus as messiah but not the Son of God. Therefore, they hold that Jesus did not die on the cross (to say so would have to accept Jesus’ divinity) and he was exchanged for someone else before the crucifixion. Ebionites have a strong adherence to the Torah and the need for loyalty to the Law. All these are the same view that Muslims have today: they call Jesus the messiah (but do not understand it in the same way that Christians understand the term), claim he did not die on the cross, have a strong adherence to the letter of the Shariah Law.

Now, the Ebionites only have one Gospel, the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew (nothing to do with the canonical Gospel of Matthew). So, if Mohammad understanding of Christian scriptures came from Waraqa, then it is no surprise why he referred to a singular Gospel and not four.

After 14 centuries none of these is backed up by hard evidence and one can call my thoughts here as speculations. But then neither do the other side have any hard evidence that will stand up in a court of law. So, if neither of us have hard evidence, at least my exposition here explains things that Muslims do not bother to explain.

While we are here, just to share with you some parallels between the Quranic account of Jesus and the heretical Infancy Gospel of the Arabs. Muslims claim that the Gospel of the Arabs came after the time of Mohammad but this is unlikely as after the Muslim conquest of Arabia, the incredible religious diversity in Arabia stopped (there were many many pagan groups, catholic-orthodox bishops, Jews, and many many heretical Christian groups seeking refuge outside the Roman empire before the Muslim conquest). Most scholars placed the Gospel of the Arabs (which incidentally was an Arabic translation/edit of the heretical 3rd century Infancy Gospel of Thomas, not to be confused with the Gospel of Thomas of the Gnostic fame) in Arabia by the 5th century.

The stories about Jesus in the Quran, not found in the canonical Gospels but found in the Infancy Gospel of the Arabs include the story of the clay birds (the child Jesus made birds out of clay, breathed into them and made them fly), and the baby Jesus speaking in the cradle (that he was sent by God; in the Gospel: for salvation of the world; in the Quran: as a prophet with revelation - more consistent with Islamic doctrine, I guess). Does this provide evidence of the heretical Christian sources for Mohammad’s understanding of the Christian scriptures?

You decide.

The abject lesson I guess that if we Christians have been much more united than the state that Mohammad found us in his days, and had managed to explain the catholic-orthodox teachings of the Church, would the history of the world be different?

Muhammad was taken to Waraqa after revelation came. It was because Waraqa was aware of revelation and angels. That was for one time and Waraqa approved what came to Muhammad as valid revelation. Khadijah was convinced much that Muhammad had got revelation from God. Now you claim that Muhammad was taught by Waraqa! That is non sense. Nobody could learn so mucf just with once and very short meeting. And Pagans would say that “Muhammad had learnt from Jews or Christians”. But they did not say in that way instead thy said “Muhammad claimed to take revelation as previous prophets did.” Muhammad could not read or write and had no any education. Muhammad was taught by Gabriel.

Like Waraqa many other pastors approved Muhammad.

 

[hasantas]

Muhammad just knew Arabic even He could not read or write.There are thousand books and knowledges which were taught through Muhammad. Muhammad got no education. He was usedt not to preach such thing until revelation came. After revelation He became most intellectual. He had not read any book and no taken lessons. If people had had any doubt about Muhammad so they would never believe in Him.

 

[hasantas]

At Pentecost the Holy Spirit came and gave the ability to speak in different language for all to hear the Gospels. As Jesus said in John 14:26 “…and remind you of all that * told you.”

When you said “The power of God’s speak is above all languages”
My above statement already prove this.
But what you were implying in your earlier comment is that people who do not speak Arabic are somewhat left out.*

There is an Hadith in which it is said that: Once Jesus told to His disciples to go far countries to preach. Disciples who were told to go near countries accepted but whom were told to go far regions did not. Disciples who were reluctant looked for an excuse that they did not know the languages of that nations. So Jesus prayed God and God sent Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit did make disciples to know different languages.

So Muhammad said Sahabas that do not behave me as Apostles of Jesus did. And Sahabas went to where they were told. They delivered messages of Muhammad to all nations.

Every Muslim can learn religion in any language. There is no barrier for that. What I mean for Qur’an is that God spoke directly in Arabic and speak of God is eternal and miraculous so Qur’an(words of God) is miracle. We can see that through attributes of Qur’an.

 

[MartinJordan]

Most of Christians do otherwise they would take heed to Qur’an. Qur’an call Christians to reconcile in that believe in one God and do not say Three. And Qur’an notice that doctrine is not from scripture(God).

Now Martin you are so hard which make me not to discuss so further.

First Hasantas respect our Scripture by letting Jesus speak fully. That’s the only way it’s going to work because it is you who bring up Bible verses to support the Quran. You have to face that fact brought on by your own attempts to deny what we take as Sacred Scripture.

It’s easy actually. Take all of Jesus words not parts and pieces. Then we can dialogue about the Quran.

Jesus in the Blble always talks about one God. There is no doubt for us at all.

Peace with you

MJ

 

[JimmyDFG]

What God had revealed in Aramaic so later revealed Muhammad that in Arabic. That is so simple. God could not misinterpret

If the message was the same in Aramaic and Arabic why is the messages between Jesus and muhammad so different?

 

[JimmyDFG]

There is an Hadith in which it is said that: Once Jesus told to His disciples to go far countries to preach. Disciples who were told to go near countries accepted but whom were told to go far regions did not. Disciples who were reluctant looked for an excuse that they did not know the languages of that nations. So Jesus prayed God and God sent Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit did make disciples to know different languages.
.

John 14:26
The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—he will teach you everything and remind you of all that * told you

Matthew 28:19
Go, therefore,and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues, as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim

Can’t you see how the truth is adding up here hasantas?

hasantas, " So Jesus prayed God and God sent Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit did make disciples to know different languages."

So this hadith confirms that it IS the Holy Spirit that Jesus was talking about and not muhammad being the Advocate.*

 

[GUNNER7070]

First Hasantas respect our Scripture by letting Jesus speak fully. That’s the only way it’s going to work because it is you who bring up Bible verses to support the Quran. You have to face that fact brought on by your own attempts to deny what we take as Sacred Scripture.

It’s easy actually. Take all of Jesus words not parts and pieces. Then we can dialogue about the Quran.

Jesus in the Blble always talks about one God. There is no doubt for us at all.

Peace with you

MJ

Hello Martin.
I do agree with you, if we take bits from here and pieces from there that will be inconsistent.

This forum is a great way to share knowledge through and I am afraid debating doctrines will not change a thing.

I have learned that Christians and Muslims differ in defining certain things, even within the same group sometimes and not just between religions, this is why we need to understand the point of view of each other Christians and Muslims.

In my humble opinion, I think this debate started so fast.

 

[jimkhong]

This forum is a great way to share knowledge through and I am afraid debating doctrines will not change a thing.

I have asked hasantas this question before and I did not get any answer. So let me try once more:

HASANTAS

Are you in this forum with an open mind to understand Christianity, where it is similar to Islam and where we differ from Islam? If so, I will be happy to explain to you in terms Muslims understand but you have to have an open mind and accept what Christians say about our scriptures. I don’t expect you to have to agree with us or you to convert as that is between you & God and wherever God leads you is none of my business. But you cannot expect us to read the Bible using a Quranic point of view - doesn’t make sense just as I don’t expect you to read the Quran from a Biblical point of view if you don’t want to - you only do that if you wish to be a Christian. I do expect Christians, though, to understand the Bible and Quran from a Biblical point of view though as to do otherwise would then mean they are no longer Christians.

But if you are here to prove that Quran is right and Christians are wrong, then I am sorry there is no point debating with you. As long as you have a small shred of such intentions, then I will limit my posts to explaining to Christians in this forum why you make the statements that you make and the different logic that untrained Muslims uses to explain their faith as well as the historical reasons why Islam misunderstand Christianity based on our sense of evidence and logic, not the logic of Muslims untrained in our sense of evidence and logic.

I got my understanding of Islam from Muslims who have a lot more understanding of Islam than yourself and those who understands our sense of evidence and logic accept that I have a point even though they do not feel any need to convert to Christianity or do I expect them to. I wish we have more such open Muslims with better understanding of Islam to be on this forum as they would be a much better bridge between Christians in the West and Muslims.

 

[Reuben_J]

Most of Christians do otherwise they would take heed to Qur’an. Qur’an call Christians to reconcile in that believe in one God and do not say Three. And Qur’an notice that doctrine is not from scripture(God).

This is the reason why Christians scorn at the Quran and cannot believe that it is true. It is barking at the wrong tree. Christians do not say three and they already believed in one God, much longer and earlier than the Quran.

 

[jimkhong]

This is the reason why Christians scorn at the Quran and cannot believe that it is true. It is barking at the wrong tree. Christians do not say three and they already believed in one God, much longer and earlier than the Quran.

"And when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?’” (sura 5:116)

According to the Quran, Christians seem to worship the Trinity of Father, Son and ‘my mother’. Somehow, God in the Quran seems confused over what his people in the Christian church was doing. Or maybe we were worshiping the wrong Trinity after all.

To explain this confusion (I have to admit I have not yet researched this enough to consider this a corroborated source: maybe someone can help)

There was in Arabia in the fourth century a sect of fanatical women called Collyridians (Kollurivde"), who rendered divine worship to Mary. Epiphanius, Haer. 79. (Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Volume IV, Chapter III, “Mohammedanism in its Relation to Christianity”, fn. 188; source)

So was the confused guy who wrote the Quran, God or a man who was was exposed to the influence of his contemporary world?

 

[GUNNER7070]

I have asked hasantas this question before and I did not get any answer. So let me try once more:

HASANTAS

Are you in this forum with an open mind to understand Christianity, where it is similar to Islam and where we differ from Islam? If so, I will be happy to explain to you in terms Muslims understand but you have to have an open mind and accept what Christians say about our scriptures. I don’t expect you to have to agree with us or you to convert as that is between you & God and wherever God leads you is none of my business. But you cannot expect us to read the Bible using a Quranic point of view - doesn’t make sense just as I don’t expect you to read the Quran from a Biblical point of view if you don’t want to - you only do that if you wish to be a Christian. I do expect Christians, though, to understand the Bible and Quran from a Biblical point of view though as to do otherwise would then mean they are no longer Christians.

But if you are here to prove that Quran is right and Christians are wrong, then I am sorry there is no point debating with you. As long as you have a small shred of such intentions, then I will limit my posts to explaining to Christians in this forum why you make the statements that you make and the different logic that untrained Muslims uses to explain their faith as well as the historical reasons why Islam misunderstand Christianity based on our sense of evidence and logic, not the logic of Muslims untrained in our sense of evidence and logic.

I got my understanding of Islam from Muslims who have a lot more understanding of Islam than yourself and those who understands our sense of evidence and logic accept that I have a point even though they do not feel any need to convert to Christianity or do I expect them to. I wish we have more such open Muslims with better understanding of Islam to be on this forum as they would be a much better bridge between Christians in the West and Muslims.

Your question was logical,simple and straightforward.
I want to learn the similarities and differences between Christianity and Islam.
I would like to learn the point of view of others and the way of how they perceive things, Specially from people who are knowledgeable and have a better understanding in the topics which attracts me the most.

 

[Reuben_J]

I have asked hasantas this question before and I did not get any answer.

jimkhong, hasantas is lingual challenged, I mean in English, which he so admitted. Some of the things you say, may be beyond him.

If he answers your question directly, it would be good, otherwise he would just say what he wants. One got to admire him though for his perseverance in staying and that would be his value rather than anything else. He gives us the opportunity to express our thought by his presence.

 

[jimkhong]

jimkhong, hasantas is lingual challenged, I mean in English, which he so admitted. Some of the things you say, may be beyond him.

If he answers your question directly, it would be good, otherwise he would just say what he wants. One got to admire him though for his perseverance in staying and that would be his value rather than anything else. He gives us the opportunity to express our thought by his presence.

I fully accept your point, Reuben. From his missing-the-point answers, I have long suspected that he had difficulties understanding my long long posts. But I suspect that is a combination of his lack of fluency in the language but also his inability to visualise alternatives to what he has been taught.

Yes I would agree to your point also about his value in this forum. I would the opportunity to explain the classical Muslim mindset (not all Muslims think like him).

Perseverance in a forum like this is fine. But in my country perseverance has led to many of our Christian youths in the villages being incorrectly converted to Islam and many now come to regret their decision. Problem is there is punishment for apostasy under our laws. So perseverance can sometimes be a vice.

Pray for our youths and many others like them throughout the world at risk of inappropriate conversion