The Book Which is Most being read:Qur'an

[jimkhong]

"And when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?’” (sura 5:116)

According to the Quran, Christians seem to worship the Trinity of Father, Son and ‘my mother’. Somehow, God in the Quran seems confused over what his people in the Christian church was doing. Or maybe we were worshiping the wrong Trinity after all.

Sorry if I sound too dismissive. There were several passages in the Quran that seem to be trying to debunk the notion that Mary is a goddess, reflecting the fact that early Muslims seem to think the Christian Trinity comprises the Jesus, Mary and God. One verses as an example:

“They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three.” And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded." (sura 5:73-75)

There were also a number of Muslim writings from the early Islamic period which reflect this error. One example:

“They argue that he is the third of three in that God says: We have done, We have commanded, We have created and We have decreed, and they say, If He were one He would have said I have done, I have created, and so on, but He is He and Jesus and Mary. Concerning all these assertions the Quran came down.” (Muhammad ibn Ishaq (d761): Sirat Rasul Allah)

So there is plenty of written evidence that in the earliest days, Muslims had the incorrect understanding what constitute the Christian Trinity. So it is not just misundertanding the concept of the Trinity.

 

[MartinJordan]

Hello Martin.
I do agree with you, if we take bits from here and pieces from there that will be inconsistent.

Glad that is clear to you as a Muslim and accept that inconsistency results.

So this also means that using some parts of Jesus’s words therefore makes the Quran connections that Jesus didn’t claim divinity is also inconsistent. Jesus specifically stated he came from above. Hasantas for example doesn’t look at that context because he avoided or just not serious enough to examine properly from the same Gospel of John.

This forum is a great way to share knowledge through and I am afraid debating doctrines will not change a thing.

It is actually not about debating alone but to get Muslims to see that these 2000 years of Christianity is about experiencing God as He revealed himself by sending his Son. We know that because Jesus claimed he had Authority from the Father to save Mankind from the Sin of Adam (it’s connected with Jesus calling himself the Son of Man).

There is much more to say and rejoice in these truths but it must be experienced. Not just reading a Book or about being given a Book. Keep in mind we as Christians are not people of the Book but of Jesus Christ.

That’s why we Baptise our own children in the name of the Trinity. It’s wonderful so very consistent with the teaching we have received from The Church. Jesus started this Church. Amen!

I have learned that Christians and Muslims differ in defining certain things, even within the same group sometimes and not just between religions, this is why we need to understand the point of view of each other Christians and Muslims.

In my humble opinion, I think this debate started so fast.

This deserves its own thread don’t you think? Too much to cover.

Peace be with you.

MJ

 

[JimmyDFG]

Every Muslim can learn religion in any language. There is no barrier for that. What I mean for Qur’an is that God spoke directly in Arabic and speak of God is eternal and miraculous so Qur’an(words of God) is miracle. We can see that through attributes of Qur’an.

You say the quran is miraculous but we have a contradiction in surah 19:67, it states that man was created out of nothing. In 15:26, man is created from clay. Since clay is something, we have a contradiction since “nothing” excludes the possibility of “clay.” Both cannot be true.

Also, If the quran is complete and miraculous why are other books like the hadith needed

 

[GUNNER7070]

Sorry if I sound too dismissive. There were several passages in the Quran that seem to be trying to debunk the notion that Mary is a goddess, reflecting the fact that early Muslims seem to think the Christian Trinity comprises the Jesus, Mary and God. One verses as an example:

“They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three.” And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded." (sura 5:73-75)

There were also a number of Muslim writings from the early Islamic period which reflect this error. One example:

“They argue that he is the third of three in that God says: We have done, We have commanded, We have created and We have decreed, and they say, If He were one He would have said I have done, I have created, and so on, but He is He and Jesus and Mary. Concerning all these assertions the Quran came down.” (Muhammad ibn Ishaq (d761): Sirat Rasul Allah)

So there is plenty of written evidence that in the earliest days, Muslims had the incorrect understanding what constitute the Christian Trinity. So it is not just misundertanding the concept of the Trinity.

Surah Al-Maida 5:73
They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except one God (Allah). If they do not desist from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

If I am not mistaken the Trinity is : The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.

Surah Al-Maida 5:116
And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Did you say to men, ‘worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: "Glory to You! Never could I say what I had no right(to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it You know what is in my heart, though I do not know what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden.

When the creation prays and asks someone or something else besides The Creator ( glorified and exalted be He ) for anything that is worship and is shirk Islam.

 

[GUNNER7070]

Glad that is clear to you as a Muslim and accept that inconsistency results.

So this also means that using some parts of Jesus’s words therefore makes the Quran connections that Jesus didn’t claim divinity is also inconsistent.

As a Muslim I believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) did not claim divinity, and yes using parts of the Bible to prove the Qur’an or vice versa is inconsistent, because that will be cherry picking.

Jesus specifically stated he came from above. Hasantas for example doesn’t look at that context because he avoided or just not serious enough to examine properly from the same Gospel of John.

It is actually not about debating alone but to get Muslims to see that these 2000 years of Christianity is about experiencing God as He revealed himself by sending his Son. We know that because Jesus claimed he had Authority from the Father to save Mankind from the Sin of Adam (it’s connected with Jesus calling himself the Son of Man).

There is much more to say and rejoice in these truths but it must be experienced. Not just reading a Book or about being given a Book. Keep in mind we as Christians are not people of the Book but of Jesus Christ.

In Islam we believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is a messenger of Allah ( glorified and exalted be He ), not only a Prophet, as was David and Moses (peace be upon them) and they were all given a revelation and a Book.

As was stated in another post, the Gospel of John and others were written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit, Books which Muslims do not believe in, and men who chose what is in the Canon and what is not.

This is what we believe:
Surah Al-Maida 5:77
Say: "O People of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by, - who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even Way.

That’s why we Baptise our own children in the name of the Trinity. It’s wonderful so very consistent with the teaching we have received from The Church. Jesus started this Church. Amen!

This deserves its own thread don’t you think? Too much to cover.

Peace be with you.

MJ

Are you referring to the Original sin?

 

[MartinJordan]

As a Muslim I believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) did not claim divinity, and yes using parts of the Bible to prove the Qur’an or vice versa is inconsistent, because that will be cherry picking.

Ok but where did you learn from the Bible Jesus did not equate himself to God? That is the motive for your own Muslim brother Hasantas. Did you not agree with him?

In Islam we believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is a messenger of Allah ( glorified and exalted be He ), not only a Prophet, as was David and Moses (peace be upon them) and they were all given a revelation and a Book.

And you are 100% know this since the time Jesus came? How do you trace this? From experience of early Muslims? Or from a Book that is inanimate?

As was stated in another post, the Gospel of John and others were written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit, Books which Muslims do not believe in, and men who chose what is in the Canon and what is not.

Since when did Islam study Bible canon,? Which authority of Muslims discuss Canon? Do you study the Councils from around 320 AD onwards which were called to defend from from heretics who tried to deny Jesus as fully God and fully man? What does Islam know about this from those days?

This is what we believe:
Surah Al-Maida 5:77
Say: "O People of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by, - who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even Way.

What is this saying? We don’t love God with all our minds soul heart and strength as Jesus reminded us?

Are you referring to the Original sin?

What did Islam teach about this or Mohammed?

MJ

 

[GUNNER7070]

Ok but where did you learn from the Bible Jesus did not equate himself to God? That is the motive for your own Muslim brother Hasantas. Did you not agree with him?

Hello Martin.
I did not learn that from the Bible, I am only stating an Islamic point of view, believe me.
As I would love to read everyone’s point of view in this matter.

And you are 100% know this since the time Jesus came? How do you trace this? From experience of early Muslims? Or from a Book that is inanimate?

Non of us was with Jesus (peace be upon him) before his ascendance, but each one of us has his or her belief.
And my belief comes from the Qur’an and Hadits, I am a Muslim.

Since when did Islam study Bible canon,? Which authority of Muslims discuss Canon? Do you study the Councils from around 320 AD onwards which were called to defend from from heretics who tried to deny Jesus as fully God and fully man? What does Islam know about this from those days?

You and everyone have all the right to ask and judge, because this is not an easy matter.
I was just stating a point of view and tell you why Muslims think that way.

What is this saying? We don’t love God with all our minds soul heart and strength as Jesus reminded us?

Martin, I never said or implied any of that.
I am not the judge, nobody is nor will be, but ( The Judge Himself ) ( The Mighty ).

What did Islam teach about this or Mohammed?

MJ

In Islam we do not have anything about the Original sin but the opposite of it.

Surah Al-Anam 6:164
Say: "Shall I seek for (my) Cherisher other than Allah, when He is the Cherisher of all things (that exist)? Every soul draws the need of its acts on none but itself: no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another. Your goal in the end is toward Allah: He will tell you the truth of the things wherein you disputed.

From an Islamic point of view:
How can the progeny be punished by a sin of someone else’s even though that person repented who is Adam (peace be upon him).

 

[Reuben_J]

Surah Al-Maida 5:73
They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except one God (Allah). If they do not desist from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

If I am not mistaken the Trinity is : The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.

God is one of three in a Trinity is NOT the Trinity is : The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.

If Quran 5:73 believes that it is talking about Christian belief, then it was wrong because that was not a Christian belief.

Like you, who mistake it for a Christian belief, likewise the Quran, when it believed the same.

The doctrine of the Trinity does not say that God is three, nor does it say that God is a part off the Trinity.

God is the Trinity, one God.

The description of God as known to man is the Trinity. It does not mean THREE gods.

Christians would laugh at a statement like Quran 5:73. How could God be wrong on the belief of a religion which was already so entrenched in the 7th century? How could he do not know?

This god must not have read much or perhaps he did not travel to Rome, Alexandria or Antioch then, visiting the churches there and talk to the priests who would surely can tell him about what the Trinity really is.

The possible explanation to Quran 5:73 was that it might be referring not to the main Christianity religion (that was already well established in Europe and North Africa but not in the desert of Arabia), but probably to some heretical Christianity sects in Arabia around the area of Mecca and Medina which opposed to or mistook the Trinity.

The Quran sure can disagree with our belief but at least disagree with what we believe, not what it thought we believe. Right or not?

 

[MartinJordan]

Surah Al-Maida 5:73
They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except one God (Allah). If they do not desist from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

The word Trinity or the basic form of explaining the One God Jesus taught was by the the Church late 2nd century. The Trinity (Father Son Holy Spirit) was only later coined due to reaction to heresies like Adoptionism, Sabellianism, and Arianism.

For example Adoptionism was as beliief that when the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus only then that he became Son of God (at his Baptism) thus born as human being then later became “God” Which is quite odd! This was about 190 AD. It confuses that One God doesn’t it?.

More to come if you ask.

If I am not mistaken the Trinity is : The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.

Yes. Jesus told to his Apostles to baptise that way (One God) and go out the whole world in this mission.

Surah Al-Maida 5:116
And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Did you say to men, ‘worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: "Glory to You! Never could I say what I had no right(to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it You know what is in my heart, though I do not know what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden.

When the creation prays and asks someone or something else besides The Creator ( glorified and exalted be He ) for anything that is worship and is shirk Islam.

Mary was never taught as a God by the Church but she is the most Blessed woman and sinless and ever Virgin. We always honoured her as Mother of Christ the Lord. Thus we her children.

So much more I would love to say but leave it for now.

Peace be with you.

MJ

 

[zamyrabyrd]

In Islam we do not have anything about the Original sin but the opposite of it.
Surah Al-Anam 6:164
Say: "Shall I seek for (my) Cherisher other than Allah, when He is the Cherisher of all things (that exist)? Every soul draws the need of its acts on none but itself: no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another. Your goal in the end is toward Allah: He will tell you the truth of the things wherein you disputed.
From an Islamic point of view:
How can the progeny be punished by a sin of someone else’s even though that person repented who is Adam (peace be upon him).

Sin and evil are certainly large questions but from a psychological point of view, the sins of the fathers and mothers, too, are visited upon the children, and so forth. Original Sin, to my mind, is the best explanation for why the world is so bad. Civilization is but a thin veneer on murderous and anti-social urges. When this is acknowledged in a political system, the need to protect person and property, then any charitable impulse will be a pleasant surprise. A utopian vision of humanity fails miserably every time.

 

[GUNNER7070]

The word Trinity or the basic form of explaining the One God Jesus taught was by the the Church late 2nd century. The Trinity (Father Son Holy Spirit) was only later coined due to reaction to heresies like Adoptionism, Sabellianism, and Arianism.

For example Adoptionism was as beliief that when the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus only then that he became Son of God (at his Baptism) thus born as human being then later became “God” Which is quite odd! This was about 190 AD. It confuses that One God doesn’t it?.

More to come if you ask.

Yes Martin, I do love to know more.

Yes. Jesus told to his Apostles to baptise that way (One God) and go out the whole world in this mission.

Mary was never taught as a God by the Church but she is the most Blessed woman and sinless and ever Virgin. We always honoured her as Mother of Christ the Lord. Thus we her children.

So much more I would love to say but leave it for now.

Peace be with you.

MJ

You do not need to tell me that about Mary (peace be upon her).

I only meant to say that in Islam "praying to and asking " someone or something besides God is worshiping.
For example someone prays to God to heal someone’s illness.

In my belief, from a Hadit:

I was riding behind the Prophet (peace be upon him) on a donkey and he said to me “O Mu’adh, do you know what is the right of Allah on his slaves and what is the right of the slaves upon Allah?” I responded: “Allah and His Messenger know best.”

He continued, “The Right of Allah upon His slaves is to worship Him Alone and never to associate anything with him. The right of slaves upon Him is not to punish any person who does not associate anything with Him.” I said: “O Allah’s Messenger, may I not give the glad tidings to the people?” He replied: "No. Do not inform them lest they rely on (this promise and lapse in their service to Him).”

(Al Bukhari and Muslim)

 

[Reuben_J]

In Islam we believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is a messenger of Allah ( glorified and exalted be He ), not only a Prophet, as was David and Moses (peace be upon them) and they were all given a revelation and a Book.

This belief is definitely wrong about Jesus. He did not write any book nor given a book. What was written about him was by his apostles or scribes of the apostles.

As was stated in another post, the Gospel of John and others were written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit, Books which Muslims do not believe in, and men who chose what is in the Canon and what is not.

This is what we believe:
Surah Al-Maida 5:77
Say: "O People of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by, - who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even Way.

Again, you make a wrong interpretation of Surah 5:77.

The books referred to must be the official book of the Christian scriptures, which as already mentioned the Quran did not know. It alluded to other ‘heretical’ scriptures as the official belief of Christianity.

And if you are right, then the Quran ‘took side’ of the heretical Christian as the Christian belief.

Of course, ‘heretical’ here means the other Christians sect, and to them the Christian churches of Europe, North Africa and Asia Minor then could very well heretical.

 

[jimkhong]

Surah Al-Maida 5:73
They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except one God (Allah). If they do not desist from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

If I am not mistaken the Trinity is : The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.

Surah Al-Maida 5:116
And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Did you say to men, ‘worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: "Glory to You! Never could I say what I had no right(to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it You know what is in my heart, though I do not know what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden.

When the creation prays and asks someone or something else besides The Creator ( glorified and exalted be He ) for anything that is worship and is shirk Islam.

Gunner I really have no interest to debate with you tenets of Christian faith. Explain yes. Argue who is right and who is wrong is really not for me. Some others may choose to do so but for me it is an exercise in futility.

My point is more that when Muslims argue about the Trinity in the early days, they were not even correct in their understanding what they were arguing about, let alone about the concept of the Trinity. Muslims thought (and this is in the Quran) that the Trinity was Father, Son and Mary. If Muslims of the early days (and the Quran) could not even get the correct facts about what Christians believe, what is the basis of arguing that the Christians are wrong?

In a court of law, if you do not even get the allegation correct (say that someone is charged for murder on February 30), it won’t even get to trial. The Trinity of the Father, Son and Mary (as alleged in the Quran) do not exists as a Christian act of worship. There cannot even be a debate.

It then throws in question whether Muslim and the Quran have understood Christianity correctly. What else is misunderstood?

 

[GUNNER7070]

Sin and evil are certainly large questions but from a psychological point of view, the sins of the fathers and mothers, too, are visited upon the children, and so forth. Original Sin, to my mind, is the best explanation for why the world is so bad. Civilization is but a thin veneer on murderous and anti-social urges. When this is acknowledged in a political system, the need to protect person and property, then any charitable impulse will be a pleasant surprise. A utopian vision of humanity fails miserably every time.

In my humble opinion, we reap what we sow, From a non-religious perspective, I do agree with you, as we do inflict these things on ourselves.
Some of us do not forgive others and some inflict horrors upon others.

 

[GUNNER7070]

Gunner I really have no interest to debate with you tenets of Christian faith. Explain yes. Argue who is right and who is wrong is really not for me. Some others may choose to do so but for me it is an exercise in futility.

My point is more that when Muslims argue about the Trinity in the early days, they were not even correct in their understanding what they were arguing about, let alone about the concept of the Trinity. Muslims thought (and this is in the Quran) that the Trinity was Father, Son and Mary. If Muslims of the early days (and the Quran) could not even get the correct facts about what Christians believe, what is the basis of arguing that the Christians are wrong?

In a court of law, if you do not even get the allegation correct (say that someone is charged for murder on February 30), it won’t even get to trial. The Trinity of the Father, Son and Mary (as alleged in the Quran) do not exists as a Christian act of worship. There cannot even be a debate.

It then throws in question whether Muslim and the Quran have understood Christianity correctly. What else is misunderstood?

I was not looking for debate nor an argument only an observation, the claim stated regarding the Qur’an about the Trinity wrong, therefore if it is really God’s words how could it be wrong.

Let me quote the two verses again.

Surah Al-Maida 5:73
They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except one God (Allah). If they do not desist from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

“Trinity is : The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.” One God but three distinctive Persons.
I do respect your belief, and I do see why you think this verse is not referring to what you think the Trinity really is.

Surah Al-Maida 5:116
And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Did you say to men, ‘worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: "Glory to You! Never could I say what I had no right(to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it You know what is in my heart, though I do not know what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden.

Now going through the second verse, I believe this is where you and others thought that it must got the Doctrine wrong and the Trinity does not consist of Mary (peace be upon her), which is not along with Jesus (peace be upon him).

Look for anything implies or speaks about a Trinity in the Verse.

Two key words here ( worship and derogation).
I have already gave an example of what does worshiping mean in Islam, and what is the right of Allah on his slaves and what the right of the slaves upon Allah.

Again, I never meant to debate nor I want to, I am only sharing a point of view as I would love to read yours and everyone’s.

 

[jimkhong]

I was not looking for debate nor an argument only an observation, the claim stated regarding the Qur’an about the Trinity wrong, therefore if it is really God’s words how could it be wrong.

Let me quote the two verses again.

Surah Al-Maida 5:73
They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except one God (Allah). If they do not desist from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

“Trinity is : The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.” One God but three distinctive Persons.
I do respect your belief, and I do see why you think this verse is not referring to what you think the Trinity really is.

Surah Al-Maida 5:116
And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Did you say to men, ‘worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: "Glory to You! Never could I say what I had no right(to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it You know what is in my heart, though I do not know what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden.

Now going through the second verse, I believe this is where you and others thought that it must got the Doctrine wrong and the Trinity does not consist of Mary (peace be upon her), which is not along with Jesus (peace be upon him).

Look for anything implies or speaks about a Trinity in the Verse.

Two key words here ( worship and derogation).
I have already gave an example of what does worshiping mean in Islam, and what is the right of Allah on his slaves and what the right of the slaves upon Allah.

Again, I never meant to debate nor I want to, I am only sharing a point of view as I would love to read yours and everyone’s.

There is nothing in the Quran that refers to the Trinity as Father Son and Holy Spirit. But Sura 5:116 does refer to Mary being wrongfully worship as deities together with Jesus. Muslim writings (and I gave one example here but I think al-Zamakhshar is even more explicit but controversial) clearly states Mary as one of the Trinity. Also, a number of Muslim scholars today do accept that early Muslims do view the Trinity as including Mary.

However, of course as a Muslim I cannot expect you to accept my understanding of the Trinity. Your starting point is that Quran is written by the hand of God himself and so it cannot be wrong. If it contradicts any other understanding, then the other understanding is clearly wrong. For us we do not think that, so our starting point is that Quran is written by men, not God. As long as our starting point is different, anything steming from that difference will be different as well. So no point both Muslims and Christians trying to explain things from two different sets of logic.

So no point trying to prove what Quran says. I understand where you come from and I only ask that you accept that this is what Christians think - we do NOT worship three Gods no matter what it seems to you. Put it down to a difficulty in communicating the understanding of prior generations of two billion Christians today - maybe we are not articulate enough or you cannot break away from what you have been incorrectly taught about what Christians believe.

 

[GUNNER7070]

This belief is definitely wrong about Jesus. He did not write any book nor given a book. What was written about him was by his apostles or scribes of the apostles.

Again, you make a wrong interpretation of Surah 5:77.

The books referred to must be the official book of the Christian scriptures, which as already mentioned the Quran did not know. It alluded to other ‘heretical’ scriptures as the official belief of Christianity.

And if you are right, then the Quran ‘took side’ of the heretical Christian as the Christian belief.

Of course, ‘heretical’ here means the other Christians sect, and to them the Christian churches of Europe, North Africa and Asia Minor then could very well heretical.

Hello Reuben.

I did not quote a verse in the Bible, it was a verse from the Qur’an.
I did read in a previous post, something about a Hebrew Gospel of Mathew!

Why is Islam perceived as a heretical side of Christianity?

There are many other verses and not just that one.
For example:

Surah 2:79
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: “This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for a miserable price! - Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

 

[GUNNER7070]

There is nothing in the Quran that refers to the Trinity as Father Son and Holy Spirit. But Sura 5:116 does refer to Mary being wrongfully worship as deities together with Jesus. Muslim writings (and I gave one example here but I think al-Zamakhshar is even more explicit but controversial) clearly states Mary as one of the Trinity. Also, a number of Muslim scholars today do accept that early Muslims do view the Trinity as including Mary.

However, of course as a Muslim I cannot expect you to accept my understanding of the Trinity. Your starting point is that Quran is written by the hand of God himself and so it cannot be wrong. If it contradicts any other understanding, then the other understanding is clearly wrong. For us we do not think that, so our starting point is that Quran is written by men, not God. As long as our starting point is different, anything steming from that difference will be different as well. So no point both Muslims and Christians trying to explain things from two different sets of logic.

So no point trying to prove what Quran says. I understand where you come from and I only ask that you accept that this is what Christians think - we do NOT worship three Gods no matter what it seems to you. Put it down to a difficulty in communicating the understanding of prior generations of two billion Christians today - maybe we are not articulate enough or you cannot break away from what you have been incorrectly taught about what Christians believe.

Please do not get me wrong, I do understand your point of view and I totally respect it, what I did is just stating what worshiping consist on and mean in an Islamic point of view.
This is a very sensitive issue.

Please accept my apology, I did not mean to accuse Christians about worshiping 3 Gods or anything like that, it was not my intention nor will ever be.
I am really sorry, truly am.

And it is true that I believe if anything contradicts the Qur’an then the Other thing is wrong, But I was not commenting to disprove you or anyone, that was not the point.

I was just giving the other opinion on this matter, what do we think about these things and why is that.

I almost forgot about al-Zamakhshar, I have read that he was a Mu`tazilite.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

I was riding behind the Prophet (peace be upon him) on a donkey and he said to me “O Mu’adh, do you know what is the right of Allah on his slaves and what is the right of the slaves upon Allah?” I responded: “Allah and His Messenger know best.”

He continued, “The Right of Allah upon His slaves is to worship Him Alone and never to associate anything with him. The right of slaves upon Him is not to punish any person who does not associate anything with Him.” I said: “O Allah’s Messenger, may I not give the glad tidings to the people?” He replied: "No. Do not inform them lest they rely on (this promise and lapse in their service to Him).”

(Al Bukhari and Muslim)

In no way are Christians supposed to be “slaves” of God. (Abd’allah) We are supposed to be a free, even royal, people. The Jews celebrate during their Passover festival that they used to be slaves (avadim) and are no more.

 

[jimkhong]

Please do not get me wrong, I do understand your point of view and I totally respect it, what I did is just stating what worshiping consist on and mean in an Islamic point of view.
This is a very sensitive issue.

Please accept my apology, I did not mean to accuse Christians about worshiping 3 Gods or anything like that, it was not my intention nor will ever be.
I am really sorry, truly am.

And it is true that I believe if anything contradicts the Qur’an then the Other thing is wrong, But I was not commenting to disprove you or anyone, that was not the point.

I was just giving the other opinion on this matter, what do we think about these things and why is that.

I almost forgot about al-Zamakhshar, I have read that he was a Mu`tazilite.

No problem Gunner. I take you as sincere unless proven otherwise.

The different starting point is why I talk to Muslims in inter-religious dialogue using the Quran and not the Bible unless they want to understand what I think and they are open of mind. But it is difficult for a Muslim to break away from the thinking that only the Quran is the benchmark for the truth.

In this forum, I am talking more to Christians using our sense of logic and evidence.

Yes, as I mentioned, al-Zamakhshar is a little controversial.