The Book Which is Most being read:Qur'an

[GUNNER7070]

In no way are Christians supposed to be “slaves” of God. (Abd’allah) We are supposed to be a free, even royal, people. The Jews celebrate during their Passover festival that they used to be slaves (avadim) and are no more.

I guess this is one of the differences between both point of views.

Surah Maryam 19:93
Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (Allah) Most Gracious as a servant.

This is how we perceive the relationship between The Creator and the creation.

 

[GUNNER7070]

No problem Gunner. I take you as sincere unless proven otherwise.

The different starting point is why I talk to Muslims in inter-religious dialogue using the Quran and not the Bible unless they want to understand what I think and they are open of mind. But it is difficult for a Muslim to break away from the thinking that only the Quran is the benchmark for the truth.

In this forum, I am talking more to Christians using our sense of logic and evidence.

Yes, as I mentioned, al-Zamakhshar is a little controversial.

Thank you very much, I really appreciate that.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

I guess this is one of the differences between both point of views.
Surah Maryam 19:93
Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (Allah) Most Gracious as a servant.
This is how we perceive the relationship between The Creator and the creation.

Well, there is a difference between slave and servant. “Khadam(a)” is used in Arabic for servant, as far as I know. Christians still have to obey but in the framework of free will. In other words we have to choose to submit.

 

[MartinJordan]

I was not looking for debate nor an argument only an observation, the claim stated regarding the Qur’an about the Trinity wrong, therefore if it is really God’s words how could it be wrong.

Let me quote the two verses again.

Surah Al-Maida 5:73
They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except one God (Allah). If they do not desist from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

“Trinity is : The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.” One God but three distinctive Persons.
I do respect your belief, and I do see why you think this verse is not referring to what you think the Trinity really is.

Surah Al-Maida 5:116
And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Did you say to men, ‘worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: "Glory to You! Never could I say what I had no right(to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it You know what is in my heart, though I do not know what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden.

Now going through the second verse, I believe this is where you and others thought that it must got the Doctrine wrong and the Trinity does not consist of Mary (peace be upon her), which is not along with Jesus (peace be upon him).

Look for anything implies or speaks about a Trinity in the Verse.

Two key words here ( worship and derogation).
I have already gave an example of what does worshiping mean in Islam, and what is the right of Allah on his slaves and what the right of the slaves upon Allah.

Again, I never meant to debate nor I want to, I am only sharing a point of view as I would love to read yours and everyone’s.

Gunner this is a repeat of what you’ve already stated and I’ve responded. Please answer it.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14060883&postcount=384

Peace be with you.

MJ

 

[hasantas]

"And when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?’” (sura 5:116)

According to the Quran, Christians seem to worship the Trinity of Father, Son and ‘my mother’. Somehow, God in the Quran seems confused over what his people in the Christian church was doing. Or maybe we were worshiping the wrong Trinity after all.

To explain this confusion (I have to admit I have not yet researched this enough to consider this a corroborated source: maybe someone can help)

There was in Arabia in the fourth century a sect of fanatical women called Collyridians (Kollurivde"), who rendered divine worship to Mary. Epiphanius, Haer. 79. (Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Volume IV, Chapter III, “Mohammedanism in its Relation to Christianity”, fn. 188; source)

So was the confused guy who wrote the Quran, God or a man who was was exposed to the influence of his contemporary world?

Qur’an do not talk about a wrong Trinity but you do not understand. That is true that Qur’an says do not take Maryam and Jesus as deities besides God but also in Qur’an God says do not take scholars and monks as deities. Here:

31-They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him. At-Tawba(9)

So Qur’an reject all kinds of Shirk. And Trinity. Here:

78- And indeed, there is among them a party who alter the Scripture with their tongues so you may think it is from the Scripture, but it is not from the Scripture. And they say, “This is from Allah,” but it is not from Allah. And they speak untruth about Allah while they know.

79- It is not for a human [prophet] that Allah should give him the Scripture and authority and prophethood and then he would say to the people, “Be servants to me rather than Allah,” but [instead, he would say], “Be pious scholars of the Lord because of what you have taught of the Scripture and because of what you have studied.”

80- Nor could he order you to take the angels and prophets as lords. Would he order you to disbelief after you had been Muslims? Al-Imran(3)

Qur’an say do not take angels and prophets as deities. Jesus was a prophet and Holy Spirit is Gabriel who is an angel. Did you get?

 

[JimmyDFG]

As a Muslim I believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) did not claim divinity, and yes using parts of the Bible to prove the Qur’an or vice versa is inconsistent, because that will be cherry picking.

In Islam we believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is a messenger of Allah ( glorified and exalted be He ), not only a Prophet, as was David and Moses (peace be upon them) and they were all given a revelation and a Book.

As was stated in another post, the Gospel of John and others were written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit, Books which Muslims do not believe in, and men who chose what is in the Canon and what is not.

This is what we believe:
Surah Al-Maida 5:77
Say: "O People of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by, - who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even Way.

Are you referring to the Original sin?

I can give you verses from the Gospels indicating Jesus’ Divinity and shows that Jesus is God in flesh…

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth

John 8:24
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM,you will die in your sins.

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.”

John 10:30-33
The Father and I are one.”
The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him.
Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?”
The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God.

I question why you are here since ( as you said ) “As was stated in another post, the Gospel of John and others were written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit, Books which Muslims do not believe in,”
This doesn’t sound like open dialogue but more of a one sided argument

 

[MartinJordan]

Gunner this is a repeat of what you’ve already stated and I’ve responded. Please answer it.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14060883&postcount=384

Peace be with you.

MJ

Need to correct this. You did answer it but my expectation was different so I took it as not answered. My apologies.

Meanwhile I would want to ask you a deeper point about the Quran mention of the Trinity to be more precise.

The Trinity term came later but it was never a point of question that Christians had any doubt about God being One. So the Quran mention of the term Trinity is not accurate. As I said the Trinity term only came due to ideas that cropped up saying that Jesus was not fully God but part God part Man yet still divine. Things like that.

You also ssid youd like to know more so that’s a good thing yet state the Quran and Hadiths is where Muslims draw the line so to speak and not from Bible. You do realize then that the Trinity term is not in the Bible. So we are at the crossroad of understanding without using a Book as reference.

Therefore let’s be more focused on the technicality of where ideas came from that is to say where did the Quran get the Term Trinity from? Who were the people who said "God is three " and so forth?

Looking forward to your views and clarification.

Peace be with you.

MJ

 

[hasantas]

I have asked hasantas this question before and I did not get any answer. So let me try once more:

HASANTAS

Are you in this forum with an open mind to understand Christianity, where it is similar to Islam and where we differ from Islam? If so, I will be happy to explain to you in terms Muslims understand but you have to have an open mind and accept what Christians say about our scriptures. I don’t expect you to have to agree with us or you to convert as that is between you & God and wherever God leads you is none of my business. But you cannot expect us to read the Bible using a Quranic point of view - doesn’t make sense just as I don’t expect you to read the Quran from a Biblical point of view if you don’t want to - you only do that if you wish to be a Christian. I do expect Christians, though, to understand the Bible and Quran from a Biblical point of view though as to do otherwise would then mean they are no longer Christians.

But if you are here to prove that Quran is right and Christians are wrong, then I am sorry there is no point debating with you. As long as you have a small shred of such intentions, then I will limit my posts to explaining to Christians in this forum why you make the statements that you make and the different logic that untrained Muslims uses to explain their faith as well as the historical reasons why Islam misunderstand Christianity based on our sense of evidence and logic, not the logic of Muslims untrained in our sense of evidence and logic.

I got my understanding of Islam from Muslims who have a lot more understanding of Islam than yourself and those who understands our sense of evidence and logic accept that I have a point even though they do not feel any need to convert to Christianity or do I expect them to. I wish we have more such open Muslims with better understanding of Islam to be on this forum as they would be a much better bridge between Christians in the West and Muslims.

If you are certain about your thoughts hence you should not be bothered and confused because of criticisms. If I would not struggle to understand Christianity so I would not effort so much which take much time of me.

You talk about open mind. I wonder if Christians consider what I argue with them which I do through logic and much by Bible.

Evidences of Christians are their interpretations of Bible. In same way I do other interpretation under light of Qur’an. And Christians claim to do that under leading of Holy Spirit. But that is not so clear and valid. If you talk about logic so you should be unto solid ground. Claiming that Holy Spirit always lead scholars or Church is not reliable and certain. I know many wrongs of people in scholars and Church.

 

[hasantas]

This is the reason why Christians scorn at the Quran and cannot believe that it is true. It is barking at the wrong tree. Christians do not say three and they already believed in one God, much longer and earlier than the Quran.

Then instead Trinity you should say Unity.

 

[hasantas]

Sorry if I sound too dismissive. There were several passages in the Quran that seem to be trying to debunk the notion that Mary is a goddess, reflecting the fact that early Muslims seem to think the Christian Trinity comprises the Jesus, Mary and God. One verses as an example:

“They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three.” And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded." (sura 5:73-75)

There were also a number of Muslim writings from the early Islamic period which reflect this error. One example:

“They argue that he is the third of three in that God says: We have done, We have commanded, We have created and We have decreed, and they say, If He were one He would have said I have done, I have created, and so on, but He is He and Jesus and Mary. Concerning all these assertions the Quran came down.” (Muhammad ibn Ishaq (d761): Sirat Rasul Allah)

So there is plenty of written evidence that in the earliest days, Muslims had the incorrect understanding what constitute the Christian Trinity. So it is not just misundertanding the concept of the Trinity.

Look at post #400 in this Thread.

 

[MartinJordan]

Then instead Trinity you should say Unity.

It is Unity. As Jesus said " I and the Father are One". The Term Trinity iis also about the Love of God.

God is Love

Holy Holy Holy Lord. God of power and might!

Thrice Holy. Unlimited in Power and Mercy and Justice.

Amen!

Peace be with you.

Caritas!

MJ

 

[hasantas]

You say the quran is miraculous but we have a contradiction in surah 19:67, it states that man was created out of nothing. In 15:26, man is created from clay. Since clay is something, we have a contradiction since “nothing” excludes the possibility of “clay.” Both cannot be true.

Also, If the quran is complete and miraculous why are other books like the hadith needed

67-Does man not remember that We created him before, while he was nothing? Maryam(19)

Humanbeing was nothing before he was not created. What is wrong with that? Human was nothing but Qur’an do not say we create human from nothing. God here highlight that God had created human and God will animate human back after death. You should start from previous verse:

66-And the disbeliever says, “When I have died, am I going to be brought forth alive?” Maryam

And God created human from clay. It is very miraculous statement that human body transfrom into clay after death.

26- And We did certainly create man out of clay from an altered black mud. Al-Hijr(15)

Hadiths and Sunnah are implementation of Qur’an. Muhammad was the straight way of living Qur’an. People need a model to live miracle. Jesus was perfect model to follow also.

 

[hasantas]

285- The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], “We make no distinction between any of His messengers.” And they say, “We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination.”

Muslims believe in both OT and NT. So Muslims have right to argue in any way. Nobody could claim that Bible is only mine. Bible is belong to believers.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

Hadiths and Sunnah are implementation of Qur’an. Muhammad was the straight way of living Qur’an. People need a model to live miracle. Jesus was perfect model to follow also.

I have a very good Muslim friend who emphasizes the humanity, therefore fallibility, of Muhammed (peace be on him). The same could be said of Abraham, David, all the way up to and including Martin Luther. Pontius Pilate, the Prefect of Judea, said he found no fault in Jesus. Christians may have been militarily aggressive during their 2000 year history, but apart from self-protection, they were violating their prescripts, not fulfilling them. Jesus never led raids against certain tribes. Maybe the less said about that, the better…

 

[JimmyDFG]

Surah Al-Maida 5:116
And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Did you say to men, ‘worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: "Glory to You! Never could I say what I had no right(to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it You know what is in my heart, though I do not know what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden.

Catholics/Christians do not worship Mary. This is a misconception the quran and islam has about Christianity

 

[JimmyDFG]

67-Does man not remember that We created him before, while he was nothing? Maryam(19)

Humanbeing was nothing before he was not created. What is wrong with that? Human was nothing but Qur’an do not say we create human from nothing. God here highlight that God had created human and God will animate human back after death. You should start from previous verse:

66-And the disbeliever says, “When I have died, am I going to be brought forth alive?” Maryam

And God created human from clay. It is very miraculous statement that human body transfrom into clay after death.

26- And We did certainly create man out of clay from an altered black mud. Al-Hijr(15)

Hadiths and Sunnah are implementation of Qur’an. Muhammad was the straight way of living Qur’an. People need a model to live miracle. Jesus was perfect model to follow also.

What was man created from: blood, clay, dust, or nothing?
1.“Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood,” (96:2).
2."We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
3.“The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: “Be”. And he was,” (3:59).
4.“But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?” (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
5."He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).

 

[arthra]

Well it’s interesting to read the Quranic verses…

1. Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay);
2. Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed;
3. Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then We made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then We developed out of it another creature: so blessed be Allah, the Best to create!
4. After that, at length, ye will die.
   
   (The Qur’an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 23)

Maybe we should be cognizant of the Arabic words as well…

quran.com/23

 

[GUNNER7070]

Need to correct this. You did answer it but my expectation was different so I took it as not answered. My apologies.

Meanwhile I would want to ask you a deeper point about the Quran mention of the Trinity to be more precise.

The Trinity term came later but it was never a point of question that Christians had any doubt about God being One. So the Quran mention of the term Trinity is not accurate. As I said the Trinity term only came due to ideas that cropped up saying that Jesus was not fully God but part God part Man yet still divine. Things like that.

Hello Martin.
There is noting to apologize for.
The word Trinity or the term,sentence ( in a Trinity ) found in the translation of that verse was an odd addition in my humble opinion by the translator.

I am interested in how the term was developed.

You also ssid youd like to know more so that’s a good thing yet state the Quran and Hadiths is where Muslims draw the line so to speak and not from Bible. You do realize then that the Trinity term is not in the Bible. So we are at the crossroad of understanding without using a Book as reference.

Therefore let’s be more focused on the technicality of where ideas came from that is to say where did the Quran get the Term Trinity from? Who were the people who said "God is three " and so forth?

Looking forward to your views and clarification.

Peace be with you.

MJ

Yes as I said, I would love to know more and I meant what I said.

Looking forward for your replay.

 

[GUNNER7070]

Well, there is a difference between slave and servant. “Khadam(a)” is used in Arabic for servant, as far as I know. Christians still have to obey but in the framework of free will. In other words we have to choose to submit.

You are correct, there is a difference between the word slave and the word servant in Arabic, but I think “slave” the correct word of choice when choosing a translation of that verse.

 

[GUNNER7070]

I can give you verses from the Gospels indicating Jesus’ Divinity and shows that Jesus is God in flesh…

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth

John 8:24
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM,you will die in your sins.

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.”

John 10:30-33
The Father and I are one.”
The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him.
Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?”
The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God.

I question why you are here since ( as you said ) “As was stated in another post, the Gospel of John and others were written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit, Books which Muslims do not believe in,”
This doesn’t sound like open dialogue but more of a one sided argument

Hello Jimmy.
History and Religion are two of things that I love to read about,I got that from my Mother, because she made me love history.

I do believe that everyone is free to choose and be whatever he or she wants to be, after all we were given a free will.

I never meant to argue or debate and I do not want to, I just wanted to clear some of the things that are said about Islam, giving the other voice so to speak.

I tried to make the point of view of a Muslim known to others, like how do we think about the issue A and the Issue C for example.

Sharing knowledge does not mean that you have to believe in my religion nor do I have to believe yours, so how is this one sided?

I was sharing an observation in my post and no more.
It is normal for people to disagree in issues and specially if the matter is as sensitive and important as religion.

I would like to read those verses you provided in context, which one do you recommend?

And last I believe that you have not given me an answer on a question I asked previously.