The "born again" argument

[rev_kevin]

The other mother was leading the daughter into heresy while the girl’s mother was leading the other mother to the truth, and I consider that different. You thought it was ***the act of trying to convert someone ***that was at issue? Not for me at any rate. Come on, this is America. Everybody is always trying to convert everybody else to all sorts of things all the time - toothpaste, trans-fats, insurance, religion, smoking, and the list goes on.

**I wonder what the Catholic mother would have thought if the other mother tried to get the girl enrolled in the Brown Scapular or join a rosary club or something Catholic.

**Gitanesteel, what do you think?

You think its heresy,which it is not.

You are contradicting yourself here. You say that the other mother was “leading” the daughter into heresy while the girl’s mother was “leading” the other mother to the truth.
Both are “leading” one another which is the same thing. You believe your’s is the truth, we believe our’s is the truth. Just because we don’t believe the same things you believe, you automatically think its heresy. Turning someone on to Christ is not heresy. Believing in Christ is not heresy. Following Christ is not heresy. Its only heresy to you because we are not Catholic and don’t go by the Catholic teachings.
Then you say, Come on, this is America. “Everybody” (this would include both mothers) is always trying to convert everybody else to all sorts of things all the time…religion. With this statement one is to believe that both mothers were trying to convert each other.
Why would the mother send her daughter to a non-Catholic camp if she didn’t want her daughter taught heresy, (as you put it)? Did she think the non-Catholic camp was going to teach Catechism? Most of the blame would have to go to the Catholic mother 1. for sending her daughter to a non-Catholic school. 2. sending her daughter to a non-Catholic camp. And she upset because of her own lack of judgment.

I don’t know you would have to ask the other mother that question.

 

[East_Anglican]

Being born again.

Romans 6:3
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Romans 6:4-5
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.

We were reborn through baptism.

Of course the next problem you have is either “infant baptism is invalid” (which is like saying child circumcision was invalid) or “It has to be total immersion” at which point you can ask them if they really do believe in grace.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

4squarebaby asked
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Squarebaby
So if I am following this right if a child is lead in prayer renouncing her sins and accepting “Jesus into her heart” as part of something like Vacation Bible Camp then she is thought to have left the Catholic Church? To which you replied

Yes, because this is the membership ceremony into another denomination. It is not possible to be a member of two different denominations, at the same time.

I have over one thousand posts on this forum and I disagree with a lot of what the CC teaches, but I am having a real hard time wrapping my brain around this one. It seems to me that if a precious child is lead in prayer to renounce their sins and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior that they are being lead from disbelief into beleif and that they are NOT being lead into another denomination but into Christianity. So, when you say that “this is the membership ceremony into another denomination.” You are saying that Catholics are not Chistians. I can’t for the life of me figure out why anyone would be insensed about someone leading their children to Christ.

 

[Apollos]

Just because we don’t believe the same things you believe, you automatically think its heresy. Turning someone on to Christ is not heresy.

No, two people can disagree and both be wrong. I automatically think it’s heresy because I know what your religion teaches.

But turning on to Christ - whatever that means - is not heresy. The girl was already turned on to Christ when she was baptized, and the other mother’s behavior was firmly grounded in the false belief that baptism does not regenerate. ***The other mother believed that the girl was a non-Christian. ***(What did Jesus say about sins against the Holy Spirit?)

 

[Apollos]

…(which is like saying child circumcision was invalid)…

If infant circumcision were invalid and you had to get re-circumcised as an adult … :stretcher:

 

[rev_kevin]

No, two people can disagree and both be wrong. I automatically think it’s heresy because I know what your religion teaches.

But turning on to Christ - whatever that means - is not heresy. The girl was already turned on to Christ when she was baptized, and the other mother’s behavior was firmly grounded in the false belief that baptism does not regenerate. ***The other mother believed that the girl was a non-Christian. ***(What did Jesus say about sins against the Holy Spirit?)

You say its heresy thats your opinion and I’m not going to argue the matter because I know its not.

Turning on to Christ, means letting them know about Christ. Sorry the hippie came out in me.

Maybe the girl was baptized but it wasn’t because she chose to be. Her parents chose it for her.

The OP didn’t say that the non-Catholic mother thought they were not Christian, that was the assumption of the Catholic mother.

What sin was commited?

Now I noticed that you did not respond to several points I made about the Catholic mother about sending her daughter to a non-Catholic camp. About if she thought the non-Catholic camp was going to teach Catechism. That most of the blame is on the Catholic Mother for sending her daughter to a non-Catholic school and to a non-Catholic camp.

What do you mean by "I wonder what the Catholic mother would have thought if the other mother (non-Catholic) tried to get the girl enrolled in a Brown Scapular or join a rosary club or something Catholic. Can you please explain this one?

 

[jmcrae]

I have over one thousand posts on this forum and I disagree with a lot of what the CC teaches, but I am having a real hard time wrapping my brain around this one. It seems to me that if a precious child is lead in prayer to renounce their sins and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior that they are being lead from disbelief into beleif and that they are NOT being lead into another denomination but into Christianity.

Jesus Christ is already her Lord and Saviour, from the moment that she was baptized, and He forgives her her sins every time she makes use of the Sacrament of Reconciliation, and every time she goes to Mass.

So, when you say that “this is the membership ceremony into another denomination.” You are saying that Catholics are not Chistians. I can’t for the life of me figure out why anyone would be insensed about someone leading their children to Christ.

The expectation is that, once she completes the Altar Call, she is to get baptized (re-baptized, in her case) and start attending Sunday services at the hosting Church, rather than going to Mass at her Catholic Church any more, is that not correct? So, yes, it is a renunciation of her Catholic faith and practice, in order to take up the practice of a different denomination.

 

[Bluegoat]

The expectation is that, once she completes the Altar Call, she is to get baptized (re-baptized, in her case) and start attending Sunday services at the hosting Church, rather than going to Mass at her Catholic Church any more, is that not correct? So, yes, it is a renunciation of her Catholic faith and practice, in order to take up the practice of a different denomination.

I’m not sure that was the expectation in the case of the OP. It sounded to me more like the woman expected Catholics would be just as interested in their children having this kind of experience.

 

[Apollos]

You say its heresy thats your opinion and I’m not going to argue the matter because I know its not. Turning on to Christ, means letting them know about Christ. Sorry the hippie came out in me. … The OP didn’t say that the non-Catholic mother thought they were not Christian, that was the assumption of the Catholic mother. … Now I noticed that you did not respond to several points I made about the Catholic mother about sending her daughter to a non-Catholic camp. …

What do you mean by "I wonder what the Catholic mother would have thought if the other mother (non-Catholic) tried to get the girl enrolled in a Brown Scapular or join a rosary club or something Catholic. Can you please explain this one?

Funny how something becomes an “opinion” when someone disagrees with it. Anyway, why would the other mother try to lead the girl to Christ if she thought the girl was already a Christian? Hello?

But I was wondering whether the OP would have a problem with a Catholic mother trying to turn the girl on to a Catholic way of thinking. Because if OP would be ok with that, then the problem was not with the act of convincing, but with what the convincing was about. And that’s a question for the OP, as was the rest of what I skipped in your post.

…a hippie? I thought I smelled something check it out: wfmu.org/365/2003/110.shtml a little tunage about turning on in a new way - fun intro dialog and a clever ditty about a new kind of high

 

[jmcrae]

I’m not sure that was the expectation in the case of the OP. It sounded to me more like the woman expected Catholics would be just as interested in their children having this kind of experience.

Probably, but at the same time, she also probably thinks there’s no real difference between going to Mass and going to whatever they do at her church, and since the Altar Call was probably being sponsored by her church, the next step would be to get the kids to “start coming to Church, now that you’re finally a Christian,” at her church.

 

[freerf]

Where is “accepting Jesus into your heart” in the Bible?

I love hearing this from a Catholic. You don’t have any problem accepting the multitude of Mary dogmas, and other wildly non-biblical (that is not based on the bible) catholic teachings, Traditions, etc. , yet the Prot. teaching of “accepting Jesus into your heart” is problematic.

How could this idea possibly be offensive to a christ-follower?

 

[freerf]

Actually, they wouldn’t. Now, at the same time, the non-Catholic child would be expected to attend Religion classes, and any religious events going on at the school during school hours, but no one would approach the child to invite them to go to RCIA, or anything like that - unless the child started to ask, “How can I start to be allowed to receive the Sacraments?” - and then, if the child asked, then someone would explain the RCIA process to the child, and invite them to ask their parents permission to attend an RCIA program for children and teens.

Since when is requiring a child to attend mass and religion classes not evangelical?

 

[jmcrae]

Since when is requiring a child to attend mass and religion classes not evangelical?

If the child were open to the experience, it certainly would be evangelical - however, if they sleep through it (and nobody would stop them from doing that) then it would be just like every other class they take in school.

 

[freerf]

Now if the parents didn’t want their child exposed to a non-Catholic religion they should not have put the child there in the first place.

You’d think this would be obvious.

 

[freerf]

So if I am following this right if a child is lead in prayer renouncing her sins and accepting “Jesus into her heart” as part of something like Vacation Bible Camp then she is thought to have left the Catholic Church?

Exactly why is the prayer harmful? Or why is proclaiming publicly that she believes Jesus is God harmful?

Exactly. Encouraging a child to accept Jesus into their heart is apparently offensive among Catholics and worthy of condemnation, disdain, and snide remarks.

i don’t get it. she was going to a protestant camp? what’d you think they did there? would it have been better if she told you that your daughter learned nothing about Christ the entire weekend?

 

[freerf]

The other mother was leading the daughter into heresy while the girl’s mother was leading the other mother to the truth, and I consider that different. You thought it was ***the act of trying to convert someone ***that was at issue? Not for me at any rate. Come on, this is America. Everybody is always trying to convert everybody else to all sorts of things all the time - toothpaste, trans-fats, insurance, religion, smoking, and the list goes on.

**I wonder what the Catholic mother would have thought if the other mother tried to get the girl enrolled in the Brown Scapular or join a rosary club or something Catholic.

**Gitanesteel, what do you think?

Oh boy, I’d love to know what was “heresy”?

 

[freerf]

If the child were open to the experience, it certainly would be evangelical - however, if they sleep through it (and nobody would stop them from doing that) then it would be just like every other class they take in school.

Sigh. Being evangelical doesn’t depend on a recipient’s willingness. If it did, the OP would have no leg to stand on as his daughter wasn’t interested.

 

[Reuben_J]

I love hearing this from a Catholic. You don’t have any problem accepting the multitude of Mary dogmas, and other wildly non-biblical (that is not based on the bible) catholic teachings, Traditions, etc. , yet the Prot. teaching of “accepting Jesus into your heart” is problematic.

How could this idea possibly be offensive to a christ-follower?

More importantly which is relevant to the thread - the context is, where does this lead to? Will it make the girls loves the Sacraments as the source of outward sign of inward grace; will she loves her Church more; will she appreciate the Pope more? If it will not lead her to these, worst still to an opposite direction, then it will be of no use to her, as far as the perspective of her parents is concerned.

There are many ways where ‘accepting Jesus’ is done in the Church, one being Baptism. There is no higher way that one can accept Jesus other than this; others being merely follow-ups. You have to define what ‘accepting Jesus’ means. This is not found explicitly in the Bible though one can interpret verses to confirm to this view, but it is not explicit. For those who believe thing must be literally found in the Bible, then there is a problem with this phrase.

 

[freerf]

More importantly which is relevant to the thread - the context is, where does this lead to? Will it make the girls loves the Sacraments as the source of outward sign of inward grace; will she loves her Church more; will she appreciate the Pope more? If it will not lead her to these, worst still to an opposite direction, then it will be of no use to her, as far as the perspective of her parents is concerned.

There are many ways where ‘accepting Jesus’ is done in the Church, one being Baptism. There is no higher way that one can accept Jesus other than this; others being merely follow-ups. You have to define what ‘accepting Jesus’ means. This is not found explicitly in the Bible though one can interpret verses to confirm to this view, but it is not explicit. For those who believe thing must be literally found in the Bible, then there is a problem with this phrase.

This is a great, great thread. It is really helping me understand what Catholic’s believe. You ask “where will accepting Jesus into your heart lead”? I think the obvious answer is towards a love for Christ. And yet, to you, the more important issue is a love towards the Sacraments, the Catholic Church, and Pope.
To which I see clearly, that if a love of Christ does not lead towards these things (sac, cc, and pope). . . well, the implication is obvious.
There is no problem with the phrase “accepting jesus in your heart” just as there is no problem with the idea of the trinity. yours is an arguement without substinance.

 

[Reuben_J]

Oh boy, I’d love to know what was “heresy”?

If I am the mother of the girl, anything that can lead her daughter away from the Catholic Church, is a heresy.

We must be concerned of unwelcome effort to bring a child into deeper belief unto someting that may contradict the teaching of the Catholic Church.

In the other post, we mentioned about ‘accepting Jesus’. This is very Protestant way of doing thing. If it means to believe deeper in Jesus and loving him and to be actively living the faith, Catholic has the Sacrament of Confirmation for that. This Sacrament is received when the child is in her teen and it is often preceeded by a few days program of ‘camp’ or seminar whereby at the end of it she will receive the Sacrament from a Bishop so that the work of the Holy Spirit is strengthened in her life. This grace will equip her to be soldier for Christ in her Christian life.