The "born again" argument

[Reuben_J]

Yes, accepting Jesus into your heart is a prayer. That is the action you asked about. How a prayer is done and what it entails is obvious. There is no ritual associated.

Do i think I’m being silly, being that “accepting jesus in your heart is only a prayer”? no. that is the point. catholics are saying this is offensive. i’m saying if you find this offensive, there is a deeper problem with your christianity or you don’t understand what “accepting jesus” means.

What I mean it is no big deal. A person can say any type of prayers and some of the prayers that we personally say must surely touch on something that you call ‘accepting Jesus in your heart’. So it’s no big deal. That kind of prayer is ongoing every time we want to renew our faith or asking Jesus to strengthen us or just anytime.

The Catholic child most probably has said that kind of prayer long before you decide to ‘evangelize’ her.

We however become Christians when we were baptized in the Sacrament of Baptism. It is a one-off event.

We are talking about a young child being sent to a protestant camp and being evangelized by protestants. This is what Protestants do. to everyone at Protestant Camp.

Again, a Catholic child going to a Protestant camp will be taught about jesus as Protestants teach about Jesus. Part of that is an encouragement to accept jesus into your heart. “When in Rome. . .” Do you order Italian food in a Mexican resturant? Don’t criticise Protestants for being Protestants at a Protestant Camp. Thats just silly.

Come on, the discussion earlier on is much more than this. You only have refer to the earlier posts.

I agree with you then as too what another Protestants said – don’t send our child to a Protestant school if they do not want to be evangelized to be a Protestant. If I may, I wish to add that this would never be the Catholic school objective to change a child religion to ours.

At least this is new information for me. Thank you.

 

[freerf]

John 3:5, actually. Here’s the whole passage:

John 3

1 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit** gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[e] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.**

ok. um, probably a better debate in a diff. thread.

 

[freerf]

What I mean it is no big deal. A person can say any type of prayers and some of the prayers that we personally say must surely touch on something that you call ‘accepting Jesus in your heart’. So it’s no big deal. That kind of prayer is ongoing every time we want to renew our faith or asking Jesus to strengthen us or just anytime.

The Catholic child most probably has said that kind of prayer long before you decide to ‘evangelize’ her.

We however become Christians when we were baptized in the Sacrament of Baptism. It is a one-off event.

Thank you.

Well, we are in agreement. It shouldn’t be a big deal for someone already a Christian! It’s a big deal for a non-Christian however. That was what I found so surprising on this thread is that many people here seemed to find the idea that saying the prayer was offensive. Or that the child was somehow “a good catholic” for not saying the prayer. What I’m saying is that “accepting Jesus into your heart” is fundamentally Christian, no matter if you are Catholic, Protestant, etc… A Catholic might object to the idea that one would be “saved” via the prayer, but not to the actual prayer itself. That is why I think the parent should be a bit concerned about the state of his daughter’s Christianity, Catholic or not.

For us, a ritualized prayer is not necessarily a true prayer. We recognize many Children might be taught how to say a prayer and never know what it means (not that this is the case with the OP). This is particularily true with Children that often just go through the motions. Again, not to be offensive here, but kids will be kids.

 

[freerf]

I agree with you then as too what another Protestants said – don’t send our child to a Protestant school if they do not want to be evangelized to be a Protestant. If I may, I wish to add that this would never be the Catholic school objective to change a child religion to ours.
.

This evangelical event was at a Protestant Camp, not a school. I think in a school it would be different. It was reported to the parent at a protestant school.

 

[Reuben_J]

Well, we are in agreement. It shouldn’t be a big deal for someone already a Christian! It’s a big deal for a non-Christian however. That was what I found so surprising on this thread is that many people here seemed to find the idea that saying the prayer was offensive. Or that the child was somehow “a good catholic” for not saying the prayer. What I’m saying is that “accepting Jesus into your heart” is fundamentally Christian, no matter if you are Catholic, Protestant, etc… A Catholic might object to the idea that one would be “saved” via the prayer, but not to the actual prayer itself. That is why I think the parent should be a bit concerned about the state of his daughter’s Christianity, Catholic or not.

I asked you whether you are sure that this is the correct information you are giving here. What I heard from Protestant friends is that ‘accepting Jesus’ means to be Christians. Thus it offends us for Protestants to evangelize us to accept Jesus, for we (Catholics) are already Christians by virtue of our Baptism.

For us, a ritualized prayer is not necessarily a true prayer. We recognize many Children might be taught how to say a prayer and never know what it means (not that this is the case with the OP). This is particularily true with Children that often just go through the motions. Again, not to be offensive here, but kids will be kids.

What do you mean by a ritualized prayer? What has this got to do with Catholics praying? I hope you are more candid here in what you are driving at. Having said that, however, there are prayers that are specifically taught in the Gospels and the Bible that can be said verbatim. Are you saying that these are not true prayer?

Impromptu prayer verbally said may not necessarily be superior because it can be influenced by our emotion. If you ask the child to say the prayer of ‘accepting Jesus’, well, isn’t that a memorized prayer? Most probably you have to teach her to say it for her to know what to say. What difference is it then to any ‘ritualized’ prayer?

This evangelical event was at a Protestant Camp, not a school. I think in a school it would be different. It was reported to the parent at a protestant school.

Then the OP was rightly concerned and unhappy at the way your Protestant sister said to her. Please refer to the Original Post below.

gitanesteel:

The other day a mother of one of the other students was telling me how** “I was so close to leading your daughter to Christ at camp this summer”. **“I kept asking her if she was ready to accept Jesus into her heart”.

I have to say I was 1) taken aback by her actions and 2) ticked off at her ignorance of our faith. I took the conversation to be we’re not Christian because I’m Catholic. Maybe my interpretation was wrong. But it also got me thinking, what are some of the better arguments to use with a Protestant over the “you have to accept Jesus in your heart” to be Christian. I know it’s part of their evangelization but it’s still irritating that she’s coming after my kids like that.

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Tone down the rhetoric. And do keep in mind forum rules on proselytizing and contempt for the Catholic faith will result in an instant boot.

 

[rev_kevin]

Funny how something becomes an “opinion” when someone disagrees with it. Anyway, why would the other mother try to lead the girl to Christ if she thought the girl was already a Christian? Hello?

But I was wondering whether the OP would have a problem with a Catholic mother trying to turn the girl on to a Catholic way of thinking. Because if OP would be ok with that, then the problem was not with the act of convincing, but with what the convincing was about. And that’s a question for the OP, as was the rest of what I skipped in your post.

…a hippie? I thought I smelled something check it out: wfmu.org/365/2003/110.shtml a little tunage about turning on in a new way - fun intro dialog and a clever ditty about a new kind of high

What other word should be used other than “opinion”?

My point about the Christian part was you said that the non-Catholic mother thought that she was not Christian. I was only pointing out to you that the non-Catholic mother never said that it was the Catholic mother that said that.
I believe, although I could be wrong, that the non-Catholic mother was saying is the girl almost made the decission herself to accept Christ and not the decission of her parents.
See no one can make that decission for you, only you can accept Christ or not. Its your decission to make and yours alone, no one can decide for you. Using your word Hello?

I wonder that myself. And for the rest, fair enough.

Thanks for the site, I’ll check it out.

 

[rev_kevin]

I asked you whether you are sure that this is the correct information you are giving here. What I heard from Protestant friends is that ‘accepting Jesus’ means to be Christians. Thus it offends us for Protestants to evangelize us to accept Jesus, for we (Catholics) are already Christians by virtue of our Baptism.

What do you mean by a ritualized prayer? What has this got to do with Catholics praying? I hope you are more candid here in what you are driving at. Having said that, however, there are prayers that are specifically taught in the Gospels and the Bible that can be said verbatim. Are you saying that these are not true prayer?

Impromptu prayer verbally said may not necessarily be superior because it can be influenced by our emotion. If you ask the child to say the prayer of ‘accepting Jesus’, well, isn’t that a memorized prayer? Most probably you have to teach her to say it for her to know what to say. What difference is it then to any ‘ritualized’ prayer?

Then the OP was rightly concerned and unhappy at the way your Protestant sister said to her. Please refer to the Original Post below.

Christians by virtue of your baptism. Who made the decission for the girl to be a Christian? The parents
No one can make that decission for you, only you can make that decission and a infant can’t decide nor can your parents for you. Its up to you and you only.

About ritualized prayer here, I have to side with you on that one. It don’t matter how you pray whether by memory or a impromptu prayer. Prayer is prayer.

Now about the refer to the original post.
Who made the decission to send her daughter to a Protestant school? The Catholic mother.
Who made the decission to send her daughter to a Protestand camp? The Catholic mother.
And she’s taken back, she’s ticked off, and she’s irritated by this. She put her daughter in that possion in the first place. All the blame is on her for putting her daughter in that possion. What did she expect, Catechism?

[/INDENT]

 

[Z_Ninja]

My children are attending our local non-denominational Christian school (smaller classes, better overall social message, etc.) in our small town. If there was a Catholic option we’d definitely be there.

The other day a mother of one of the other students was telling me how “I was so close to leading your daughter to Christ at camp this summer”. “I kept asking her if she was ready to accept Jesus into her heart”.

just gotta throw in a couple of pennies. It seems to me that the OP’s kids are attending a Non-denominational School/Camp (read: it doesn’t matter what denomination you belong to). So, there shouldn’t be any evangelizing. I can see if they are talking about Jesus or what it is to be a good Christian, but NOT evangelizing.
Another point is where the mother says, “I kept asking her if she was ready to accept Jesus into her heart”. So, she KEPT on asking. I may be off base, but this sounds like the issue. If the daughter said something like, “I already have Jesus in my heart.” Or explained that she was Catholic, the whole thing should have been left alone, but she kept on asking.
Someone else said, but if the non-Catholic mother’s child was asked to do something Catholic, how would that mother feel?

I could be wrong, it’s been known to happen from time to time. Just ask my wife.

 

[jmcrae]

just gotta throw in a couple of pennies. It seems to me that the OP’s kids are attending a Non-denominational School/Camp (read: it doesn’t matter what denomination you belong to). So, there shouldn’t be any evangelizing. I can see if they are talking about Jesus or what it is to be a good Christian, but NOT evangelizing.

Uh - no. “Non-denominational” doesn’t mean the same thing as “interdenominational.” There is nothing ecumenical about the non-denominational movement.

Non-denominational Christians are “new dispensation” (aka “fundamentalist”) Christians who have cut off all ties of every kind with both Catholicism and Protestantism. They call themselves “non-denominational,” not because all are welcome, but because they see themselves as a new kind of fundamental Christianity, beyond what they see as the chaos of “denominational Christianity” - and they include Catholics (and Baptists as well, by the way) as “denominational Christians” - that is, persons in need of “heart conversion.”

 

[pismopal]

This is a method used by non Catholic denoms (some) for exclusivity. If one has not had a thunderbolt emotional experience connected with a sudden realization of Christ’s gift of salvation…however they may word it…you are not considered a Christian by them. This perception of theirs does not make reality…happily.

 

[Z_Ninja]

thanks jmcrae, I guess I never understood when someone said non-denominational. I just never paid it any mind since I knew where I stood regarding my faith.

Z

 

[brumano]

Need a little help here. I did a search for this topic but came up empty.

My children are attending our local non-denominational Christian school (smaller classes, better overall social message, etc.) in our small town. If there was a Catholic option we’d definitely be there.

The other day a mother of one of the other students was telling me how “I was so close to leading your daughter to Christ at camp this summer”. “I kept asking her if she was ready to accept Jesus into her heart”.

I have to say I was 1) taken aback by her actions and 2) ticked off at her ignorance of our faith. I took the conversation to be we’re not Christian because I’m Catholic. Maybe my interpretation was wrong. But it also got me thinking, what are some of the better arguments to use with a Protestant over the “you have to accept Jesus in your heart” to be Christian. I know it’s part of their evangelization but it’s still irritating that she’s coming after my kids like that.

Thanks in advance for the help.

This is an example of the self righteous ignoring the more truly Christian appreciation and respect that should have been observed to you and your husband as parents, alot of non-Catholics disregard principles like this,I’ve noticed. I don’t know how exactly to advise you because given the circumstances you’re likely to have more incidents of this kind, and you have to be able to get along and your kids have to get along and so forth and that’s a good and necessary arrangement, but you’re going to have to make it understood that the spiritual and faith upbringing of your children is your business, not theirs. If you don’t they’ll soon be telling them things like: “you know Jesus did’nt really make the Catholic church”, or, the catholics go against what Jesus said in the Bible" or whatever you can imagine.

 

[DocJ]

Obviously, the arrogance of the woman is baffling. But, it does raise questions. Questions that need to be discussed with your own daughter. This is a conversation between you and her.

I’m not a Catholic, but am trying to understand it. Salvation can be lost, and I believe that is what the Catholic Church teaches as well. If your daughter has lost her salvation, you need to have a serious chat with her to see what you can do to bring her back on course.

Kids don’t always tell us everything, and are often more open in a church-camp setting with peers of their own age. Especially without their parents. Perhaps she revealed something at the camp to the effect of being unsaved?

The details of your conversation were unclear on this. If it strictly had to do with being Catholic, then you may need to educate her on Catholicism. If it did not, you NEED to have a talk with your daughter. Regardless, a little chat would not be a bad idea.

 

[jmcrae]

Perhaps she revealed something at the camp to the effect of being unsaved?

Maybe she just didn’t know what they were talking about, when they said “get saved” or “accept Jesus into your heart” - it’s not that she’s never done this, but just probably never called it by those names - and they would have taken her lack of familiarity with the terminology as meaning that she doesn’t know Jesus.

 

[jshill544]

Well, I would hope that you would not put all protestants in the same category. I myself am protestant, full blown PentecostaI came from a back ground in Church of Christ, Assembles of God, and Pentecost.

I for one believe that the orginized religion has let the people down all around. We should seek out our own salvation with fear and trembling. (with caution).

I have no doubt in my mind that there are Christians in the Catholic Church as well as every other religion. I believe we shall see people of all races and religions in Heaven.

But still even through this lady’s ignorance and approach…

Could she not have had God’s will in mind…

I hope so, and I would hope that you would approach her and not leave a distaste of her in your thoughts.

I would like your thoughts on baptism, I have review many types of baptism and am very interested in why The Synod of Cologne, AD 1280 Changed baptism from immersion to pouring on or sprinkling.
I am not wanting a argument just have been researching this for sometime now and can’t seem to find a link that will bring me to the documentation that can be viewed. Along with baptizing in the name of Jesus vs Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Thanks for your thoughts or directions.

jeff Hill
TEXAS

 

[jmcrae]

I would like your thoughts on baptism, I have review many types of baptism and am very interested in why The Synod of Cologne, AD 1280 Changed baptism from immersion to pouring on or sprinkling.

If you have access to the documents of the Synod of Cologne (could you post your links to them, please?) then no doubt it explains in the document why they did whatever they did.

We see paintings in the Roman Catacombs dating back to the time of St. Peter, showing people being baptized by pouring, by the very Apostles themselves, so we know from that, that it wasn’t a “new” thing in 1280 AD. In any case, keep in mind that the Early Church resided in a desert area - it’s not likely that they had access to deep water, most of the time. Can you imagine if the 5,000 who were converted and baptized on Pentecost had all been baptized by immersion - they would have polluted all of the drinking water for many miles in every direction. It’s a lot more likely that they used pouring rather than immersion, with such a large crowd.

Along with baptizing in the name of Jesus vs Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

It is Christ Himself who teaches us to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, in Matthew 28:19.

 

[Reuben_J]

Well, I would hope that you would not put all protestants in the same category. I myself am protestant, full blown PentecostaI came from a back ground in Church of Christ, Assembles of God, and Pentecost.

I for one believe that the orginized religion has let the people down all around. We should seek out our own salvation with fear and trembling. (with caution).

I have no doubt in my mind that there are Christians in the Catholic Church as well as every other religion. I believe we shall see people of all races and religions in Heaven.

But still even through this lady’s ignorance and approach…

Could she not have had God’s will in mind…

I hope so, and I would hope that you would approach her and not leave a distaste of her in your thoughts.

I would like your thoughts on baptism, I have review many types of baptism and am very interested in why The Synod of Cologne, AD 1280 Changed baptism from immersion to pouring on or sprinkling.
I am not wanting a argument just have been researching this for sometime now and can’t seem to find a link that will bring me to the documentation that can be viewed. Along with baptizing in the name of Jesus vs Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Thanks for your thoughts or directions.

jeff Hill
TEXAS

Hi Jeff Hill. Welcome to the Forum.

We have been discussing with the Non-Denominational. Apparently the term Protestant is more generalized but when it is being used wrongly it is appreciated if you all can clarify, like in your case.

Baptism is an initiation into Christianity. I thought some non-Catholics use the term ‘accepting Christ’ as a sort of equivalent. This however is denied by one poster here, which in a way strengthens your case in that we cannot lump all Protestants into the same category.

Baptism is commanded by the Lord in Mathew 28:19. This however is disagreed by posters here though indirectly by saying that a child must make her own decision about her faith.

Thus this is to answer them and also your post since you’re asking for our thought.

The general wisdom that a child does not know how to make a decision until she reaches the age of reason is not the issue in Catholicism. Baptism is a grace. The Lord will not ask for it if He does not equip a baptized person to live the faith.

Bearing in mind when Catholic couple get married one of their matrimonial vows is to bring up their children according to the faith. This begins in Baptism. You can say it is where the seed is planted (1 Cor 3). Others may water it but God makes the seed to grow.

In the life of Catholics the learning process of the child into the faith begins in day one until she fully understands it and practices it. There are too many programs and formats and activities as to how this comes about, not to mention the parents’ responsibility to ensure that the child truly knows her faith.

The formation of a child to her adulthood is the responsibility of the parents – that’s why in this thread the mother of the child is particularly irked by a Christian of another faith to ‘steal’ her child’s faith. If the child’s mind is being poisoned from an early age when she is not ready to really understand the implication, how can that be right for anybody else to intrude into this privacy? It is a matter of respect for the other’s belief actually.

I hope this answers some of the ignorance about Catholicism here.** A child is not languishing in the faith after Baptism because the Catholic Church has everything in her disposal to ensure that Catholic grows in faith.** In one of the post I asked, “What does Protestants have that Catholics do not have?” The answer is of course, nothing. The Catholic Church has everything – she is not lacking in grace and the wisdom to ensure that the faithful grows in faith and wisdom.

God bless.

Reuben

 

[freerf]

I asked you whether you are sure that this is the correct information you are giving here. What I heard from Protestant friends is that ‘accepting Jesus’ means to be Christians. Thus it offends us for Protestants to evangelize us to accept Jesus, for we (Catholics) are already Christians by virtue of our Baptism.

What do you mean by a ritualized prayer? What has this got to do with Catholics praying? I hope you are more candid here in what you are driving at. Having said that, however, there are prayers that are specifically taught in the Gospels and the Bible that can be said verbatim. Are you saying that these are not true prayer?

Impromptu prayer verbally said may not necessarily be superior because it can be influenced by our emotion. If you ask the child to say the prayer of ‘accepting Jesus’, well, isn’t that a memorized prayer? Most probably you have to teach her to say it for her to know what to say. What difference is it then to any ‘ritualized’ prayer?

Then the OP was rightly concerned and unhappy at the way your Protestant sister said to her. Please refer to the Original Post below.

[/INDENT]

Ooops! I had a reply all worked out but when i went to “submit” it was lost. . .oh well. i’m too tired now to redo it. I’ll just say a bit on the “ritualized prayer”: I poorly worded my statement. I’m not trying to say ritualized prayer is bad. But, it can be meaningless. Most christian children are taught the “our father,” but havent’ you noticed that very often they have no idea what it means?
Also, i agree impromptu prayer can be emotional, and sometimes this is a bad thing, but often a very good thing. crying out to God is a good thing. We try to encourage a sentiment, not an exact prayer (the prayer i gave was only an example of what one might sound like). that sentiment being a surrender to God, a repentance of sin, a recognition of Jesus as God and Savior, etc. . If the prayer i posted is said by someone who doesn’t mean that prayer, or is only saying it for another’s benefit, or to hear oneself speak, it becomes meaningless. when it is genuine and when it is not is for God to decide.

 

[freerf]

If you don’t they’ll soon be telling them things like: “you know Jesus did’nt really make the Catholic church”, or, the catholics go against what Jesus said in the Bible" or whatever you can imagine.

if the kid is going to a protestant camp, this has probably already occured.