The "born again" argument

[Reuben_J]

Ooops! I had a reply all worked out but when i went to “submit” it was lost. . .oh well. i’m too tired now to redo it. I’ll just say a bit on the “ritualized prayer”: I poorly worded my statement. I’m not trying to say ritualized prayer is bad. But, it can be meaningless. Most christian children are taught the “our father,” but havent’ you noticed that very often they have no idea what it means?
Also, i agree impromptu prayer can be emotional, and sometimes this is a bad thing, but often a very good thing. crying out to God is a good thing. We try to encourage a sentiment, not an exact prayer (the prayer i gave was only an example of what one might sound like). that sentiment being a surrender to God, a repentance of sin, a recognition of Jesus as God and Savior, etc. . If the prayer i posted is said by someone who doesn’t mean that prayer, or is only saying it for another’s benefit, or to hear oneself speak, it becomes meaningless. when it is genuine and when it is not is for God to decide.

Hi. Peace.

I have two children, a girl and a boy. Now they are entering into their teens. Since toddlers they already knew how to pray. By the time they are four they could already bless me and lay hands on me when i am not well. I could very well understand the words they pray and those prayers were from the hearts. Sure we also say the Rosary in the family which is more of a memorized prayer but that is to facilitate the meditation on the many episodes in the Gospels.

I just want to ask you: do you have children of your own and if you do, do they pray or know how to pray? I am just curious. This seems to be quite a problem for you.

 

[freerf]

Uh - no. “Non-denominational” doesn’t mean the same thing as “interdenominational.” There is nothing ecumenical about the non-denominational movement.

Non-denominational Christians are “new dispensation” (aka “fundamentalist”) Christians who have cut off all ties of every kind with both Catholicism and Protestantism. They call themselves “non-denominational,” not because all are welcome, but because they see themselves as a new kind of fundamental Christianity, beyond what they see as the chaos of “denominational Christianity” - and they include Catholics (and Baptists as well, by the way) as “denominational Christians” - that is, persons in need of “heart conversion.”

I agree with this with a few exceptions. i went to a nondenom for 7 years or so. they believe all true christians experience a baptism of the Holy Spirit, but not that this only occurs in a non-denom church. they do teach however, sola scriptura, and that the further a church strays from this teaching the further it strays from Christ. Thus, the animosity towards catholicism. . .but not towards other Protestants, typically. Baptists are not grouped in with catholics by the way. Denominations are associated with traditions, and traditions associated with extra-biblical beliefs, and extra-biblical beliefs are taught to be. . .unnecessary (and often plain bad).

(I reject much of this teaching now and no longer go to a non-denom church. )

 

[freerf]

Hi. Peace.

I have two children, a girl and a boy. Now they are entering into their teens. Since toddlers they already knew how to pray. By the time they are four they could already bless me and lay hands on me when i am not well. I could very well understand the words they pray and those prayers were from the hearts. Sure we also say the Rosary in the family which is more of a memorized prayer but that is to facilitate the meditation on the many episodes in the Gospels.

I just want to ask you: do you have children of your own and if you do, do they pray or know how to pray? I am just curious. This seems to be quite a problem for you.

Yes i have children. their prayer life is not what i’d call a “problem” for me but it is a concern. They love to pray at dinner, but often at night they don’t want to pray. I teach them to pray but not any memorized prayers. . .with the exception of the “our father”, which they seem to enjoy. Mostly we pray together for such things as good dreams, “keep you angels all around me”, good health for grandma and grandpa, etc. I certainly realize the benefits of memorized prayer. Just like a memorized song that plays over and over in your head without you even realizing it. I enjoy quite a few myself, many of which are Catholic in origin. It’s like playing music. If you only play your own stuff, you’ll never be exposed to motzart, bach, etc. . .so no, i’m not against memorized prayer.

I guess i have always associated a “genuine christianity” as one in which the Holy Spirit speaks directly to your heart, and genuine prayer similarily as one that comes from ones own heart. . .not prepackaged and assembled by someone else. i suppose that might be a bit of irrational bias coming out. . .

i happen to enjoy them, so maybe i should teach my kids a few more.

Your children sound wonderful, btw.

 

[Reuben_J]

Yes i have children. their prayer life is not what i’d call a “problem” for me but it is a concern. They love to pray at dinner, but often at night they don’t want to pray. I teach them to pray but not any memorized prayers. . .with the exception of the “our father”, which they seem to enjoy. Mostly we pray together for such things as good dreams, “keep you angels all around me”, good health for grandma and grandpa, etc. I can certainly imagine the benefits of memorized prayer. Just like a memorized song that plays over and over in your head without you even realizing it. I enjoy quite a few myself, many of which are Catholic in origin. It’s like playing music. If you only play your own stuff, you’ll never be exposed to motzart, bach, etc. . .so no, i’m not against memorized prayer. maybe i should teach my kids a few more.

Your children sound wonderful, btw.

In Catholicism there are not that many memorized prayer. It is no big deal. If a person really prays, these prayers can become very natural as part of their prayers. Memorized prayer like the Our Father or the Hail Mary can be said at the end of a prayer session or not at all. There is no rule that they must be said. But if one loves to pray, saying them would be quite natural.

My children are exposed to the life of Christian, thanks God, from the very beginning after we were married. Prayers become part of our household and I guess they naturally pick on this. At an early age, you can laugh at the words of their prayers but as they grow bigger their prayers also increase in maturity.

As I experienced myself and I do often speak on this subject to people, that there is no sure method in praying. There is no sure format of prayers that is the best. It depends on the individuals and what type of prayers that suits them most. It is such a wide subject that books is written about it. The most important thing is to pray!

My girl now plays the keyboard and involves with other children in the children ministry. Sometimes she takes care of the younger ones. She also takes part in the youth worship team. The boy is more independent; it is always heart-warming every time as he hops into the car as I send him to school every morning, he would start with a prayer for both of us as I am driving.

I think Christianity should be lived, not just talked about.

 

[freerf]

I think Christianity should be lived, not just talked about.

I need to remind myself of this every day.

I should post it on my wall or on my computer so I don’t spend so much time on these forumns debating minutiae!

Anyway, it’s time to sleep.

God Bless You and Your Children

 

[brumano]

if the kid is going to a protestant camp, this has probably already occured.

Well if you read her op this is supposedly a non-denominational Christian school and camp and whatever…she says due to their situation this is the best alternative they have at this time for the education of their kids.
Yeah, I don’t know what all they might have already been telling her kids, but what I try to suggest in the post that you qouted is in view of the situation that she’s in. She can’t just always be having confrontations about Catholicism versus Protestantism or whateverism because that’s not going to be good for the kids or her, on the other hand she can’t allow her children to be indoctrinated with anti-Catholic teachings or false spirituality of any sort. There’s no doubt she’s in a difficult situation…I suggested she make it known to them that religious training is to be from her, not them.

 

[benidict]

what Marian dogmas are wildly unbiblical?

i guess the answer would be…NONE

 

[jpaul1953]

Need a little help here. I did a search for this topic but came up empty.

My children are attending our local non-denominational Christian school (smaller classes, better overall social message, etc.) in our small town. If there was a Catholic option we’d definitely be there.

The other day a mother of one of the other students was telling me how “I was so close to leading your daughter to Christ at camp this summer”. “I kept asking her if she was ready to accept Jesus into her heart”.

I have to say I was 1) taken aback by her actions and 2) ticked off at her ignorance of our faith. I took the conversation to be we’re not Christian because I’m Catholic. Maybe my interpretation was wrong. But it also got me thinking, what are some of the better arguments to use with a Protestant over the “you have to accept Jesus in your heart” to be Christian. I know it’s part of their evangelization but it’s still irritating that she’s coming after my kids like that.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Hey gitanesteel.

Ask her: " where’s that in the bible". And always ask her to give you the bible verse for her said belief. When they say : “Have you been born again” You say: " Absolutely at the moment my parents had me baptized." They catch us by our lack of understanding their catch phrases. Remember, everything they say that is anti-Catholic in the bible is their incorrect interpretation of the bible verse(s) they are using.

If she asks you something about your faith that you do not know, say: " I’m not sure, but I will find out if you want me to and I’ll get back to you."

Most Protestant faiths are based are just a small amount of bible verses, making it easy for them to make you look stupid about your faith. It takes a lot of time to get a good understanding of our Church’s(Jesus’) Teaching. And that’s because our Church is based on the whole bible, not just a few memorized verses.

I mean no ill toward any and all Protestants. I’m only trying to help you feel better about the True Church of Christ, which is the one you already belong to.

FYI, John Martinogni, has a website with some truly great 2-minute answers you will be questioned on by a variety of non-Catholics. …Great help for a quick-study. It’s called biblechristiansociety.com. You will not be wasting your time…I promise you.

May God Bless you and your family. Words of advice… think twice before sending your children to a non-Catholic facility, especially Evangelical, because many are trying to convert you away from your ‘supposed fallen Church’…not out of hate, but out of desire. If there is no Catholic facility nearby you may consider the Public option, only because Protestants are in the word itself protesters of our faith.

Again, I’m only trying to help a fellow Catholic. My intent is not to ridicule or insult Protestantism as a whole.

JPaul1953

 

[jpaul1953]

Well, I would hope that you would not put all protestants in the same category. I myself am protestant, full blown PentecostaI came from a back ground in Church of Christ, Assembles of God, and Pentecost.

I for one believe that the orginized religion has let the people down all around. We should seek out our own salvation with fear and trembling. (with caution).

I have no doubt in my mind that there are Christians in the Catholic Church as well as every other religion. I believe we shall see people of all races and religions in Heaven.

But still even through this lady’s ignorance and approach…

Could she not have had God’s will in mind…

I hope so, and I would hope that you would approach her and not leave a distaste of her in your thoughts.

I would like your thoughts on baptism, I have review many types of baptism and am very interested in why The Synod of Cologne, AD 1280 Changed baptism from immersion to pouring on or sprinkling.
I am not wanting a argument just have been researching this for sometime now and can’t seem to find a link that will bring me to the documentation that can be viewed. Along with baptizing in the name of Jesus vs Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Thanks for your thoughts or directions.

jeff Hill
TEXAS

Hey Jeff,

Just a guess. Remember, we believe in infant baptism since Peter says “in baptism we are now saved”. So I would guess the reason to be so that little babies don’t choke on the baptismal water while being submerged.

Just a guess.

JPaul1953

 

[Martlut]

Need a little help here. I did a search for this topic but came up empty.

The Council of Trent declared:

“ . . . if they [men] were not born again in Christ, they would never be justified, since in that new birth there is bestowed upon them, through the merit of His passion, the grace by which they are made just . .

Sacraments of Baptism and Conformation

 

[pismopal]

Hey Jeff,

Just a guess. Remember, we believe in infant baptism since Peter says “in baptism we are now saved”. So I would guess the reason to be so that little babies don’t choke on the baptismal water while being submerged.

Just a guess.

JPaul1953

There seems to be another reason for the accepted practice of Baptism (without immersion).
In an emergency…anyone is allowed…and encouraged, to Baptize another, unbaptized person. There may not always be a font, or a pond at the scene of necessity. It is the words and the use of water ( God uses the physical to demonstrate the spiritual) that completes the ritual.

 

[Planet_Claire]

Actually, catholic.com has a faith tract on “Are Catholics born again” in their library tab, it may be helpful. catholic.com/library/Are_Catholics_Born_Again.asp

Personally, I think that we Catholics do have a personal relationship with Jesus, although we may not use that particular language to describe it. Just as one example, Pope Benedict says: “If we are in relation with him who does not die, who is Life itself and Love itself, then we are in life. Then we “live”.”

The quote above is from Pope Benedict XVI’s new encyclical, “Spe Salvi.” I know it’s long but look at the end of item 27. vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

Sometimes I think Catholics and Evangelical Protestants use different words to describe the same things. (I’ve spent time in both worlds.) However, one huge difference is the Eucharist, so I hope that you daughter understands the real presence (as much as any of us can). I was poorly catechized on that, which is why I spent 7-8 years in an Evangelical church, but I am glad to be home…and do not regret the detours in my journey, as it all helped me get where I am now.

 

[freerf]

i guess the answer would be…NONE

Just not interested in traveling down that tangent on this thread. . . I’m sure some of the Catholic’s here will be offended, which is why i prefer not to discuss it in too much depth here.

The simple fact is a lot of Marian dogma is based on extra-biblical sources, i.e. sources outside the principle of sola scriptura. . .for example the assumption, immaculate conception, etc.

This shouldn’t be offensive, and yet it is to many Catholics. Although i think more seasoned Catholics aren’t offended. . . because it’s simply true. You can say scripture supports it, doesn’t contradict it, etc, but not that it’s based on scripture alone.

I consider the basis of the dogma for Mary’s assumption wildly outside of biblical sources, or “wildly unbiblical”, if you will. (Not meaning contrary to the bible – rather not based, or only loosely supported by the bible. Don’t get too caught up in the term unbiblical)

Anywho, hope that clears it up.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I consider the basis of the dogma for Mary’s assumption wildly outside of biblical sources, or unbiblical, if you will.
.

[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 12:1-5[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 12:14[/BIBLEDRB]

And I consider the denial of the dogma for Mary’s assumption to be wildly outside of biblical sources, or unbiblical, if you will.

 

[Cat_Herder]

The simple fact is a lot of Marian dogma is based on extra-biblical sources, i.e. sources outside the principle of sola scriptura. . .for example the assumption, immaculate conception, etc.

Would you please explain why it is that your church has a building and why you worship there on Sunday, when the Bible says that the Sabbath is Saturday and that Christians should worship at home and sell all their possessions, like that church building, to benefit the poor?

This whole “we follow the Bible alone and you have traditions of men!” dance is getting old.

 

[rev_kevin]

Would you please explain why it is that your church has a building and why you worship there on Sunday, when the Bible says that the Sabbath is Saturday and that Christians should worship at home and sell all their possessions, like that church building, to benefit the poor?

This whole “we follow the Bible alone and you have traditions of men!” dance is getting old.

You ask the question but do you follow what you are asking?
The Bible says the Sabbath is Saturday, do you go to church on Saturday or Sunday? And which do you consider the Sabbath? What does the CC consider to be the Sabbath?
Why do they have mass on Sunday as the main day?
Do you go to a Church (building) and worship or do you stay at home and not go to church (building)?
Does your church sell all their possessions. like the church building to benefit the poor?
Lets see the CC has some of the most expensive churches around, all the gold and glitter. Is that benefitting the poor? Shouldn’t they sell all that stuff and give the money from that to the poor?
There are a lot of things that are getting old like 2000 years we been around, Authority, We are the one true church founded by Christ. and so on. So lets not talk about getting old, it goes both ways.

 

[jmcrae]

You ask the question but do you follow what you are asking?
The Bible says the Sabbath is Saturday, do you go to church on Saturday or Sunday? And which do you consider the Sabbath? What does the CC consider to be the Sabbath?
Why do they have mass on Sunday as the main day?
Do you go to a Church (building) and worship or do you stay at home and not go to church (building)?
Does your church sell all their possessions. like the church building to benefit the poor?
Lets see the CC has some of the most expensive churches around, all the gold and glitter. Is that benefitting the poor? Shouldn’t they sell all that stuff and give the money from that to the poor?
There are a lot of things that are getting old like 2000 years we been around, Authority, We are the one true church founded by Christ. and so on. So lets not talk about getting old, it goes both ways.

The difference is that Catholics rely also on the Apostolic Tradition, and make no claim to “Bible alone” - we know that the Apostles commanded us to assemble together to hear Mass on Sundays, so that’s why we go to Mass on Sundays. But they didn’t write that down anywhere, and certainly not in the Bible, so we know it by Tradition.

But if you go by the Bible alone, then why are you following the Tradition in some things (going to Church on Sundays) but not in others (recognizing the Pope as Peter’s lawful successor, and being obedient to him).

 

[rev_kevin]

The difference is that Catholics rely also on the Apostolic Tradition, and make no claim to “Bible alone” - we know that the Apostles commanded us to assemble together to hear Mass on Sundays, so that’s why we go to Mass on Sundays. But they didn’t write that down anywhere, and certainly not in the Bible, so we know it by Tradition. Where does it say the Apostles commanded us to assemble together to hear Mass on Sunday’s?

But if you go by the Bible alone, then why are you following the Tradition in some things (going to Church on Sundays) but not in others (recognizing the Pope as Peter’s lawful successor, and being obedient to him).

We don’t believe some of the things the CC teaches, Note the word “some.”
Now what about the other questions?

 

[jmcrae]

Where does it say the Apostles commanded us to assemble together to hear Mass on Sunday’s?

It doesn’t, at all - that’s my whole point. All we have are some of the ECFs mentioning in passing that our tradition of Sunday worship comes from the Apostles. It’s Tradition; not Scripture.

We don’t believe some of the things the CC teaches, Note the word “some.”

Yes, but on what basis? If the Tradition has authority, then you should follow the whole thing, but if it doesn’t, then why follow any of it?

Come to think of it, it’s really only on the basis of Tradition that we even know that the Bible is reliable - so even when you’re going by Bible alone, you’re still making use of the Tradition’s teaching that the Bible is reliable.

The tradition of using Church buildings comes from the Early Church’s custom of meeting together in the Catacombs - we even still build our Altars out of marble, and bury the relics of various Saints in them, to remind ourselves that our first Altars were the marble tombs of those who had died for the faith in the Colosseum.

We make the buildings beautiful to remind ourselves that Jesus is our King, and deserves to reside in a beautiful palace.

 

[Cat_Herder]

You ask the question but do you follow what you are asking?

Absolutely. My Church has authoritative Sacred Tradition which legitimizes all of those practices. Your church also has those practices, those traditions—and your list proves that you got them from the Catholic Church!—and you can bend yourself into a pretzel trying to deny that all day but it won’t get you anywhere.