The bravest Muslim girl..

[dzheremi]

If Christianity cannot survive in the Middle East because piety is all about attire over there, then not only does that say something about the mentality of the modern Middle East (it is all about showing your faith on the outside ), but it also says quite a lot about the person who would claim that.

Luckily, Hadi is wrong. Every Middle Eastern Christian I have ever known has been a great witness for their faith not by making sure to veil themselves (though generally they do, in accordance with orthodox Christianity, not Islam), but by living their lives in accordance with their religion. That’s what we’re really talking about here, and to the extent that western Christians don’t do that, I think Hadi is right that western Christianity is not a good fit for the Middle East. But then, it never has been!

I would say that it is probably more accurate to say that the West is a poor fit for Christianity than that Christianity is a poor fit for the East. Christianity was born in the East. It grew up there first before going anywhere else. The great tragedy of these times is that the Muslims and ignorant westerners have both re-imagined Christianity as being a purely or more naturally western phenonmenon, making Christianity in the East seem “exotic” and “strange”, and maybe subconsciously creating and sustaining the idea that it doesn’t really belong there, that it is a foreign imposition (really? Moreso than Islam or any other, later movement?!), and/or that the communities that practice it are odd little accidents of history, marginal descendents of people passing through the area, rather than the people who founded entire societies.

Makes me sick, the whole damn retroactive exercise. Anyone who has a problem with Christianity in their country should probably do some research. Many of the Muslim world’s most famous mosques are previous churches (this is the case with the Umayyad Mosque in Syria visited by the Pope in 2001). In some places like Turkey, virtually all the churches were taken and converted as such. So who is going to tell me now that Christianity doesn’t belong in the region?! If it doesn’t, it’s because Muslims took everything and forced everyone else to leave or live as second class citizens.

 

[Sam_777]

But the way Christian here admiring a Muslim girl in taking off the scarf and becoming a kind of libertine in rejecting the moral standards of her community…makes me suspicious of Christianity.

Since my soul is Christian, I DON’T admire a Muslim girl taking off her scarf at all, I personally think unless the Girl/Woman is a devoted Christian and unless our hearts are protected by YHWH’s Word then she should wear conservative clothes, because temptation by devil would lead her to sin like what we see in the secular world and what we read even here on CAF (Family Life section) about young girls losing their virginity without marriage.

I personally think the Nuns clothes outperform all other clothes including Nikab in Islam:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[GraceDK]

Shin;
I sympathize with you, while I do not hold with the traditional Muslim dress as a standard, I do hold with modest dress standards which are required by Christianity, that have largely been destroyed in Western culture.

Please point me to a quote in the New Testament or the Catechism where “the standards which are required by Christianity”, are mentioned.

Many Western Catholics, do not hold to their religion and traditions, they live a life based largely on the corruption of culture through the media. They are truly brainwashed by their cultures, so much so they do not even understand or hold to the standards of modesty clearly witnessed to from their religion. It is not a Christian life, however much they may call themselves this or even think it is.

So you believe that Christianity is about what you wear. Interesting. You know what… maybe you should look into Islam or Judaism, … in these you are saved through a religious law.

The modesty of Our Lady and Christ is the example for all. Our Lady’s dress is the guideline for modesty for women. Some good nuns wear dress similar to, though not quite as restrictive as Muslim dress.

Cool. Please post for us a picture of your self in a long tunic and long beard, and also with your head covered while you pray like the Jews have always done. Can’t produce a Gallilean tunic… then a picture of you in a fransiscan habit will have to do. Since Christ is your role model when it comes to proper dress…

Muslim traditional dress may go too far, but it is better to go too protection against sin than to go into sin. And it is hard to change a tradition into a more modest one without people going over the line into license once they are less restricted.

Have you even watched the movie? Here is a 13 year old child - who probably haven’t got her period yet, nor even developed breats, if that even matters - who cant have her hair free in the wind because sexuality is filled with so much unnatural tension and horrific terror in Islam that whole cultures and people got sick in the head by it.

In these times we have to be all the more careful about boldness and audacity in freedom of dress, and in relations between men and women.

Go to Yemen then…I hear they have nice posters of Bin Laden on the streets there… he is also wearing something that could be inspired by the Mother of Jesus. You can even become a Muslim, then you will have all the Muslims cheering like they always do when they talk about islamic freedom to be respected while you hide everything that God created in His wisdom lest the men around you should become like wild beasts. Much moslem wear is due to social pressure, not a reflected choice. If you were called a “slu*t” by all of society and perscuted because you did not cover your head at all times, would you not cover it? You would indeed, but it would not be out of modesty.

Shalom:shrug:

 

[GraceDK]

Since my soul is Christian, I DON’T admire a Muslim girl taking off her scarf at all, I personally think unless the Girl/Woman is a devoted Christian and unless our hearts are protected by YHWH’s Word then she should wear conservative clothes, because temptation by devil would lead her to sin like what we see in the secular world and what we read even here on CAF (Family Life section) about young girls losing their virginity without marriage.

I personally think the Nuns clothes outperform all other clothes including Nikab in Islam:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b330/MikeRIch/nun.jpg

How about temptation of the young men Sam? And how about the virginity of the young men??? For every girl that looses her virginity there is also a boy. Dont forget that. the sin of a woman and the sin of a man is equal in God’s eyes. He makes no difference and neither should human beings.

I would like to ask you…
The little girl in the video is playing with her bike and enjoying the sun on her face. She is not a sexual person, all she wants is to be left in peace, to play with her friends without being inside some tent because of a stupid outdated social pressure-system.

Then there is a boy in the video… his head is uncovered, he can speak to everyone at any time… and he says: “If that girl was my sister I would slap her”.

Who is more guilty? The young boy or the young girl???

I see any kind of dominant supression of women and women sexuality, through means of clothes, social pressure or violence as a sin against God Himself.

And Sam… if you like the clothes in that picture… then you wear it yourself… then maybe when we see your pious modesty we will join you… But probably not… because we have empathy… we dont want you to be in a cage, rather we want to teach people to respect you.

 

[GraceDK]

I feel attached to the Haredi Jewish communities and feel happy for them…I hope they grow in size and become an example to other communities…

I find similar shared values with them…in terms of traditions and values …

But the way Christian here admiring a Muslim girl in taking off the scarf and becoming a kind of libertine in rejecting the moral standards of her community…makes me suspicious of Christianity.

On the other hand , they call the other Muslim women in the video who wear a head scarf BRAINWASHED

Hadi. I am concerned about you. Really I am.

Today I was working with my Muslim friend and colleage Hatun. She is a Muslim and from Turkey. When I told her about the video she - referring to the Yemenites in the video- said: “How MEAN they are to the little girl!”
I highly respect Hatun, she is a Muslim who prays in her heart throughout the day, she is always kind and understanding, unjugemental and respects the democracy etc. She also does not wear the veil… She is my friend and her faith is a beautiful thing in her life. Your islam, on the other hand, makes people shudder and feel the chills.

You critisise the young girl in the video. And only her, while she is the one being persecuted, mocked and insulted. Her basic rights are under severe pressure, and all you do is defend a population which in this way harasses anyone who chooses an unislamic dress code.
You want to have your democratic rights and you want to be free do wear the scarf, but you don’t advocate another creature’s right to follow her own conscience, which in this case means to have her ponytail uncovered… for crying out louud, What kind of people are you? How have you come so far away from the love, trust, joy and freedom to which we were created?

And yes… people who bother and harass a girl for not wearing the scarf are brainwashed. they have no concept of the freedom that you take for granted.
By the way… why dont you go to Yemen… or maybe SaudiArabia? Then you could try out the freedom of the Muslim women…

I really can’t believe you… its post like yours that make me an ardent opponent of Islam.

 

[SalomeBintullah]

I feel attached to the Haredi Jewish communities and feel happy for them…I hope they grow in size and become an example to other communities…

I find similar shared values with them…in terms of traditions and values …

But the way Christian here admiring a Muslim girl in taking off the scarf and becoming a kind of libertine in rejecting the moral standards of her community…makes me suspicious of Christianity.

On the other hand , they call the other Muslim women in the video who wear a head scarf BRAINWASHED

A libertine? A thirteen-year-old girl who likes to ride her bike and play games? :ehh: And the niqab is not required by the Qur’an. Look, I really could care less if a woman or girl freely chooses to wear hijab or even niqab. I have a Muslimah friend who wears hijab, and she’s happy with it, and that’s great. I’m all for modesty in dress, which is something required by Christianity. I even visit Islamic sites and blogs for modest fashion tips and ideas, and actually own a few head scarves myself. That child in the video was wearing long sleeves and pants. She wasn’t going around half naked.

 

[ferdie]

I feel attached to the Haredi Jewish communities and feel happy for them…I hope they grow in size and become an example to other communities…

I find similar shared values with them…in terms of traditions and values …

But the way Christian here admiring a Muslim girl in taking off the scarf and becoming a kind of libertine in rejecting the moral standards of her community…makes me suspicious of Christianity.

On the other hand , they call the other Muslim women in the video who wear a head scarf BRAINWASHED

Libertine? I think she is just happy to play around with her friends. If a girl feels like wearing scarf, so be it, if not then let us not force her. It’s not like she is scantly dressed.
Let there be religious freedom in your country, that way people will not say that Muslims are just brainwashed people.

 

[Agabriel]

Zoroastrians are still around.

Yes, but not in the ME. They exist in parts of Russia and maybe some of the countries that separated from Russia a few decades ago. But, they along with other groups were wiped out of the ME.

 

[SalomeBintullah]

Yes, but not in the ME. They exist in parts of Russia and maybe some of the countries that separated from Russia a few decades ago. But, they along with other groups were wiped out of the ME.

Actually, I watched a documentary a while ago (don’t remember which one) and it showed some modern-day Zoroastrians worshiping in Iran. They do it in secret in the mountains because they’ll be persecuted otherwise. It was very interesting, but I felt sad for them.

 

[imasinner]

Since my soul is Christian, I DON’T admire a Muslim girl taking off her scarf at all, I personally think unless the Girl/Woman is a devoted Christian and unless our hearts are protected by YHWH’s Word then she should wear conservative clothes, because temptation by devil would lead her to sin like what we see in the secular world and what we read even here on CAF (Family Life section) about young girls losing their virginity without marriage.

I personally think the Nuns clothes outperform all other clothes including Nikab in Islam:

Sam, pls explain your reasoning here. How does wearing a scarf protect her from the tempations of the devil? If a scarf is all it takes why not force it on men as well? I would only recommend she wear it for her “physical” protection living in a society that will condemn her as morally decadent if she chooses not to. God would not condemn her for not wearing a scarf as He would not condemn her for wearing a bikini to the beach. She is a child and should not be looked at as a sexual being by those who will enforce it on her.

Modesty is the key but covering a woman’s whole body (it doesn’t just stop with the scarf) as a religious requirement is based of man’s fears towards the power of a woman’s sexuality over their basic intinct. The man places the burden of his sin on the woman. It is HER fault that HE lusts after HER because SHE won’t cover HER body. Does that really make sense to you?

 

[ferdie]

Sam, pls explain your reasoning here. How does wearing a scarf protect her from the tempations of the devil? If a scarf is all it takes why not force it on men as well? I would only recommend she wear it for her “physical” protection living in a society that will condemn her as morally decadent if she chooses not to. God would not condemn her for not wearing a scarf as He would not condemn her for wearing a bikini to the beach. She is a child and should not be looked at as a sexual being by those who will enforce it on her.

Modesty is the key but covering a woman’s whole body (it doesn’t just stop with the scarf) as a religious requirement is based of man’s fears towards the power of a woman’s sexuality over their basic intinct. The man places the burden of his sin on the woman. It is HER fault that HE lusts after HER because SHE won’t cover HER body. Does that really make sense to you?

Thanks, men should really think about this, specially those who kill for the sake of tradition.

 

[Eucharisted]

I think women not wearing veils in Saudia Arabia is to women wearing only underwear in America. You get used to things, and when something else happens, it shocks you.

 

[Hadi]

God*** would not condemn her for wearing a bikini to the beach. ***

the most interesting thing I have ever read in this forum…yet only proves my point

 

[imasinner]

the most interesting thing I have ever read in this forum…yet only proves my point

That’s may be because you judge what I have stated through your islamic beliefs. A child is a child whether she is 6, 9 or 13 years old and no man (or woman) has any business looking at her as a sexual being which is what you are doing. Hadi, the only reason a child is a woman in your islamic eyes is because of Mohammad’s marriage to Aisha which he claimed as ordained by God. Even so a woman (as all men) is given freewill by the Creator Himself to accept Him or to not accept Him yet Islam claims not covering your body is not a choice but a sin?. Should we put Islam before God? God does not need to judge a person by how much hair or skin they reveal in public He knows you intimately already whether you be clothed or not.

Welcom e to CAF, Hadi. Peace and God bless

 

[Sam_777]

How about temptation of the young men Sam? And how about the virginity of the young men??? For every girl that looses her virginity there is also a boy. Dont forget that. the sin of a woman and the sin of a man is equal in God’s eyes. He makes no difference and neither should human beings.

I totally agree with you. :aok:

I would like to ask you…
The little girl in the video is playing with her bike and enjoying the sun on her face. She is not a sexual person, all she wants is to be left in peace, to play with her friends without being inside some tent because of a stupid outdated social pressure-system.

Yes I also agree with you “all she wants is to be left in peace” BUT the problem that the men in her society are not pr**otected by YHWH’s Word yet, so they might look at her in a sexual way like the what Muhammed used to do, and so she might get raped.

Then there is a boy in the video… his head is uncovered, he can speak to everyone at any time… and he says: “If that girl was my sister I would slap her”.

Who is more guilty? The young boy or the young girl???

Of course the boy.

I see any kind of dominant supression of women and women sexuality, through means of clothes, social pressure or violence as a sin against God Himself.

:nope: No Grace No, its not a matter of social pressure or violence, its protection for her from the devils around her, if that girl lives in the Vatican then she can do whatever she wants, because she will be roaming with Children of God whom will never look at her in a sexual way, but in all the other countries she should wear conservative clothes.

And Sam… if you like the clothes in that picture… then you wear it yourself… then maybe when we see your pious modesty we will join you… But probably not… because we have empathy… we dont want you to be in a cage, rather we want to teach people to respect you.

Again its not a cage Grace :hug1:, its a protection from the devils in this earth, we are not in Paradise, there are devils roaming around us to tempt us in sinning in one way or another, so if there is something that we can do to lower those chances then why not, we frustrate Satan and we give bright image for Christianity.

 

[Sam_777]

Sam, pls explain your reasoning here. How does wearing a scarf protect her from the tempations of the devil? If a scarf is all it takes why not force it on men as well?

I just explained that in my reply to Grace, and yes men also should wear conservative clothes.

I would only recommend she wear it for her “physical” protection living in a society that will condemn her as morally decadent if she chooses not to.

And I recommend she wear it in places where there are no Children of God around her, because they are the only people with heavenly thinking.

God would not condemn her for not wearing a scarf as He would not condemn her for wearing a bikini to the beach.

When we say conservative clothes that doesn’t mean that she should wear a scarf, any clothes which will not lead men to look at her in a sexual way will do.

She is a child and should not be looked at as a sexual being by those who will enforce it on her.

But her society will…, following Muhammed Sunah:

Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3309:
“'A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah’s Messenger (, may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him.”

صحيح مسلم - النكاح - تزويج الأب البكر الصغيرة:
تزوجني رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏لست سنين ‏ ‏وبنى بي ‏ ‏وأنا بنت تسع سنين قالت فقدمنا ‏ ‏المدينة ‏ ‏فوعكت ‏ ‏شهرا ‏ ‏فوفى ‏ ‏شعري ‏ ‏جميمة ‏ ‏فأتتني ‏ ‏أم رومان ‏ ‏وأنا على أرجوحة ومعي صواحبي فصرخت بي فأتيتها وما أدري ما تريد بي فأخذت بيدي فأوقفتني على الباب فقلت هه هه حتى ذهب نفسي فأدخلتني بيتا فإذا نسوة من ‏ ‏الأنصار ‏ ‏فقلن على الخير والبركة وعلى خير ‏ ‏طائر ‏ ‏فأسلمتني إليهن فغسلن رأسي وأصلحنني فلم ‏ ‏يرعني ‏ ‏إلا ورسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏ضحى فأسلمنني إليه ‏
​

(E) (A)

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:
“*Narrated 'Aisha:*that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).”

صحيح البخاري - النكاح - إنكاح الرجل ولده الصغار:
حدثنا ‏ ‏محمد بن يوسف ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏سفيان ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏هشام ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبيه ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عائشة ‏ ‏رضي الله عنها ‏
أن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏تزوجها وهي بنت ست سنين وأدخلت عليه وهي بنت تسع ومكثت عنده تسعا ‏
​

(E) (A)

Musnad Ahmed:
Muhammad saw Um Habiba the daughter of Abbas while she was fatim (age of nursing) and he said, “If she grows up while I am still alive, I will marry her.”

مسند أحمد:
أن رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏رأى ‏ ‏أم حبيبة بنت عباس ‏ ‏وهي فوق الفطيم قالت فقال ‏ ‏لئن بلغت بنية ‏ ‏العباس ‏ ‏هذه وأنا حي لأتزوجنها
​

(E) (A)

The man places the burden of his sin on the woman. It is HER fault that HE lusts after HER because SHE won’t cover HER body. Does that really make sense to you?

The woman is like a gem, shining and beautiful, so if some devil possessed men would look at this gem in a lust, then she should protect herself by covering her body AND we leave those sinful men to YHWH to deal with them in the judgement day.

 

[Shin]

God would not condemn her for not wearing a scarf as He would not condemn her for wearing a bikini to the beach.

A good Christian woman does not wear a bikini on the beach, whatever her age is. You don’t dress children like hookers anymore than you do as adults.

I did not judge the girl in the video’s clothing, I am speaking generally.

There is a shared responsibility between men and women, men to restrain and overcome wrong desires, and women not to wear clothing that inflames these desires. The worldly standards of fashion are not the standards of Christians.

And that is the settled teaching of the Church, it goes both ways, not just one or the other. Any other way would not be the love of neighbor and hatred of sin for the sake of the love of God proper to Christians.

Purity has its source in the heart, but it is in the body that its material results take shape, and therefore it may be forfeited both by the exterior senses and by the thoughts and desires of the heart. All lack of modesty in seeing, hearing, speaking, smelling, or touching, is impurity, especially when the heart takes pleasure therein.

St. Paul says without any hesitation that impurity and uncleanness, or foolish and unseemly talking, are not to be “so much as named” among Christians. Remember that there are things which blemish perfect purity, without being in themselves downright acts of impurity. Anything which tends to lessen its intense sensitiveness, or to cast the slightest shadow over it, is of this nature; and all evil thoughts or foolish acts of levity or heedlessness are as steps towards the most direct breaches of the law of chastity. Avoid the society of persons who are wanting in purity, especially if they are bold, as indeed impure people always are.’

St. Francis de Sales

 

[Sam_777]

Shin, it seems that the Holy Spirit is shining in you…:hug1:

 

[GraceDK]

A good Christian woman does not wear a bikini on the beach, whatever her age is. You don’t dress children like hookers anymore than you do as adults.

[/INDENT]

Thank you Shin. So you call me a hooker. It does not bother me… because in my world you have absolutely no authority. Your blatant arrogance, generalisations and jugement are just repulsive… Like the little girl in the film told the man who would not leave her in peace, I wanna say to you: “Beware that you strapped your sandals well”.

Are the men who wear no shirt on the beach hookers too? Oh of course not… nono… they are men…

Go live somewhere in the middle east man… or deal with the fact that your eye is the sin, not the people around you.
Your thoughts only reflect you own impurity…

 

[Jay53]

Thank you Shin. So you call me a hooker. It does not bother me… because in my world you have absolutely no authority. Your blatant arrogance, generalisations and jugement are just repulsive… Like the little girl in the film told the man who would not leave her in peace, I wanna say to you: “Beware that you strapped your sandals well”.

Are the men who wear no shirt on the beach hookers too? Oh of course not… nono… they are men…

Go live somewhere in the middle east man… or deal with the fact that your eye is the sin, not the people around you.
Your thoughts only reflect you own impurity…

Apparently Eve in the Garden of Eden was a hooker too. ???

Hopefully this thread won’t degenerate into an argument on clothing and what women should and shouldn’t wear - I think there was another thread on it in the Moral Theology forum.

I was happy to see the independence of this girl. I don’t think her failure to wear an Islamic veil or her friendships with boys in any way diminishes her worth in the eyes of God.