The bravest Muslim girl..

[GraceDK]

I just explained that in my reply to Grace, and yes men also should wear conservative clothes.

So why the burka for women and not for men? Why the men don’t cover their hair and mouth? And don’t tell me that women dont have sexual longings and only men are tempted, because that is not true.

And I recommend she wear it in places where there are no Children of God around her, because they are the only people with heavenly thinking.

I want to give you a reality shock: there is no place on this earth where people have a mind of heaven. Every person is in a battle until the end of their life. A Christian man does not assault a woman verbally or physically, because he has learned to love, to have compassion and to respect women. This is also a cultural thing…

When we say conservative clothes that doesn’t mean that she should wear a scarf, any clothes which will not lead men to look at her in a sexual way will do.

Men will always look at women in a sexual way, no matter what she wears… So too with women. Any woman who wants to lust at you will lust at you, no matter what you wear

**But her society will…, following Muhammed Sunah… **

Some Muslims get very surprised when they come to the West. Here, the women flare their long hair in the wind, they wear pants, ride bikes, wear fashinable clothes and sometimes even clothes that reveal too much skin. So do men… but we leave each other in peace. The societies are working well, the busses arrive on time, there are not very many accidents, not much harrassment and not much rape… When women are beaten in their home they have the support of the whole society and the man is trown in prison.
In Islamic countries you think everything will be a disaster unless you dominate women into submission. But you have already made a more unhuman society than anywhere else…

The woman is like a gem, shining and beautiful, so if some devil possessed men would look at this gem in a lust, then she should protect herself by covering her body AND we leave those sinful men to YHWH to deal with them in the judgement day.

No, and NO, and absolutly NO. A woman should never become a slave because of a few men’s lack of selfrespect. Why do you want to punish women for the sins of men???
As I said to some iranian man once, the first time I heard this Muslim nonsense. I said to him:
“If you are perverted and a criminal then YOU should lock your self up in a prison. Don’t let your surroundings suffer because of your own perversion. The person with the problem should be the one who is covering his own eyes instead of covering up women so they become dehumanised, without face, identity, voice or form”.

And no… Shin is not filled with the Holy Spirit on this point. He is filled with extremism which has made him sick in his thinking.

You deeply disappoint me …

 

[GraceDK]

:
I was happy to see the independence of this girl. I don’t think her failure to wear an Islamic veil or her friendships with boys in any way diminishes her worth in the eyes of God.

It’s not a matter of maybe or maybe not. Its simply so. This girl is an innocent creature in a society that is filled with demonic fear… fear of losing ones honour, fear of losing social status and maybe even ones livelihood, fear that ones rumour may be blemished, fear of no future, marriage or acceptance in society.

 

[ferdie]

Christianity is about inner conversion. When I was younger, I look at women as sex objects, it didn’t matter what they were wearing… they were simply sex objects. But once you overcome yourself, once you learn to discipline yourself, once you learn to change your thinking and attitude towards women, once you learn to admire the beauty of women, to look with admiration instead with desire, to treat them as creature of God instead of sex objects, then it wouldn’t matter what they are wearing.
Yes, the way people conduct themselves is an occasion of sin. It will be best if all are conservatives, but we are not. St. Francis at one time walked the street naked taking off all material things and possessions. We must master ourselves for we are not in control of the next person’s life.

 

[GraceDK]

the most interesting thing I have ever read in this forum…yet only proves my point

Hadi, it’s always fascinating to see just how little you can get out of many pages of writing.

 

[GraceDK]

Christianity is about inner conversion. When I was younger, I look at women as sex objects, it didn’t matter what they were wearing… they were simply sex objects. .

See this is what I dont get… I simply dont understand it. Did you not have a mother? Did you not have sisters? Did you not have classmates and friends and etc…?
When I was younger I did not think of people as sexual beings. I thought of them as individuals with a mind, a personality, a lifestory. Actually I thought they were all good and full of good intentions.
I always get sad when i hear about young Catholics who had such thoughts… were their families not Christian? I guess I never met anyone like that in real life… or maybe I continue to be naive.

 

[ferdie]

See this is what I dont get… I simply dont understand it. Did you not have a mother? Did you not have sisters? Did you not have classmates and friends and etc…?
When I was younger I did not think of people as sexual beings. I thought of them as individuals with a mind, a personality, a lifestory. Actually I thought they were all good and full of good intentions.
I always get sad when i hear about young Catholics who had such thoughts… were their families not Christian? I guess I never met anyone like that in real life… or maybe I continue to be naive.

You are not naive, maybe you are just angry. People have different experiences, we have different thought process, different upbringing, different ideas, different culture, different traditions, different personalities. different understanding.
If people think like you then good, but it seems like you do not believe in occasion of sins. There are different forms of occasion of sins. Not all are disciplined to fight temptations, the occasion of sins, whether they come in the form of money, material things, sex, sexual objects, power, wealth, desires and others. As I’ve said before. it will be great if all are conservative in all way, but we are not. We don’t have the same view of the world.
If someone in particular confess to you that by seeing you in bikinis make him sin. Will you still wear it in front of this particular person?

 

[GraceDK]

You are not naive, you are just angry. People have different experiences, we have different thought process, different upbringing, different ideas, different culture, different traditions, different personalities. different understanding.
If people think like you then good, but it seems like you do not believe in occasion of sins. There are different forms of occasion of sins. Not all are disciplined to fight temptations, the occasion of sins, whether they come in the form of money, material things, sex, sexual objects, power, wealth, desires and others. As I’ve said before. it will be great if all are conservative in all way, but we are not. We don’t have the same view of the world.
If someone in particular confess to you that by seeing you in bikinis make him sin. Will you still wear it in front of this particular person?

Actually I rarely get angry. I just get sad… I think you would be too if you kept meeting girls who said: “I used to see guys merely as sexual objects”. If thats not something sad, then I dont know what is.
Believe me, I try to make my self hard sometimes and not give a thing about any of the decadence or arrogance that goes on around me… but I most often fail and get disapointed…

As for your last question, the asnwer is no. I would not go to the beach with this particular person. I would in fact advice him to go to men-only or private beaches, for his own sake. I can go to the beach without lusting after others, although I can find male half naked bodies very fascinating indeed, so I wont stop going to the beach… Also I wont stop wearing my bikini, though ONLY on the beach. I would not have bought it in the first place if I found it immodest or offensive in any way. In fact I dont think I have ever seen any man or women on the beach in their bathingoutfits who were covered to the extent that I am in my bikini. I must also say to you that there are men who could and would say to me that I am not modest enough for his personal taste. Then I will assess that with my own personal belief and taste and agree or not. In the end we do follow our own conscience and its a fact that some people have an unhealthy relationship to sexuality and body, like for instance people like shin, or muslim extremists.

I have to take full responsibilty of my eyes and my actions… I have borne my own amount of shame for taking this approach of responsibility also in my own life. We are very rarely put in a near occasion of sin, but most often enter them on our own two feet… God never tests us beyond capability.
As any human being I find sexuality extremely interesting. I live in a over-sexualised culture where people really seem to think with their genital organs. Thus I must either discipline my eyes, ears and words, or emigrate. I have chosen both.

 

[imasinner]

Shin, it seems that the Holy Spirit is shining in you…:hug1:

Sam:

You and Shin are both deluded in this regard. Shin stated in effect that a Christian woman should not wear clothes that will inflame a man’s lust (like it is HER fault that HE lusts!)whereas you claim a Muslimah should veil because Muslim men do not have YHWH’s Word in them (like it is HER fault that HE is ignorant!).

Men have been blaming women for their inadequacies since Adam blamed Eve for his eating of the forbidden fruit.

 

[Shin]

After Adam and Eve fell, the first thing they did was blush with shame and put on clothing.

And Adam and Eve were married. That’s how serious this is.

The first thing God did for Adam and Eve, after judging them for their crime. . .

Was to make them better clothing. God Himself, the first thing He did for them was this. That’s how serious purity is.

There’s a point to this, that if you do not learn, you are all the way back to the very beginning and not going anywhere good.

Men and women are different, any pretense or obscuration of the different ways they are predisposed to be more greatly tempted and react, is of the devil, and not of God.

This matter is of such incredible importance that more adult souls go to Hell for impurity than any other vice. Those who do not care about this, or not understand this, have to try to understand again. It is not negotiable, it is that important, so that all else pales.

A good Christian woman does not, absolutely does not, wear lingerie, a swimsuit bikini or not, or similar revealing clothing, in front of men in the general public. She wears modest clothing. She conceals her body, and the proper reaction to not concealing herself properly is from the natural law – a blush of shamefacedness.

I sympathize with those mistrained by the worldly culture – but educate yourself! For the sake of souls – Read what the holy people have to say.

This is the lesson from Adam and Eve. One does not get to walk around and act as if everyone else was a saint and one bears no responsibility for how one appears to others. To appear badly is the sin of scandal at least.

We are told – woe to those who bring scandal to the little ones, it is better to have a millstone around one’s neck. Woe to those who make it more difficult than it should be for young men to be pure of heart, just as it is woe to those young men for failing to be pure of heart.

Innocence is that valuable, purity of heart that valuable.

It is not love of neighbor to claim that because men easily fall into this sin, that all of the responsibility for the sin is on the men. A person who places a cake in front of a starving man bears part of the responsibility for the man’s sudden salivation and great desire for the cake.

It is a sin to tempt others to sin. One does not have to mean to do it directly, one has to simply not care about it.

It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that men and women are to dress modestly, and that to not do so for a woman, and not care about tempting others, is a mortal sin.

This may not be convenient, but God did not make this world for our convenience, and such values are of the world, not of love of God.

It is a mortal sin for a woman to dress immodestly in the general public, as a general rule – because it can lead to the death of the souls of men. There are exceptions, when in an emergency it cannot be helped, but these do not break the general rule.

We must have purity and work against the passions working improperly through the senses. We have to hate concupiscence.

Men and women are different. For a man to see a woman dressed immodestly, cannot be directly compared to a woman seeing a man dressed so. Rather, a woman would feel something closer to a man in regards to temptation only if she was directly touched. I said this before, though I do not like to say it and people should not focus on it – but the closest comparison is, a woman should not unclothe any part of her body she would have difficulty with a man touching.

Some people pretend because there are exceptions for emergencies general rules do not exist and there is never any sin. This is a lie. The exceptions prove the rule, its reason for existence.

Good Christians when told they are sinners, reflect upon the matter and make certain to have knowledge of what it is so they may correct itself if need be.

I pray we all be good Christians.

I am not here because I want to ruin any woman’s day or upset her, I want to help… I want beautifully modest women that the Lord loves to see the modesty of. That is what is beautiful to God in women’s appearances – modesty, not fashion. That is what He loves. Sometimes help is painful. But the Lord’s path is one of the cross, not the road of convenience – though it truly is, in the long run, the easiest road.

‘He who dwells continually within his own heart is detached from the attractions of this world, for he lives in the Spirit and cannot know the desires of the flesh. Such a man henceforward walks up and down within the fortress of the virtues which keep guard at all the gates of his purity. The assaults of the demons are now ineffective against him, even though the arrows of sensual desire reach as far as the doorways of his senses.’

St. Diadochos of Photiki

‘You carry your snare everywhere and spread your net in all places. You allege that you never invited others to sin. You did not indeed by your words, but you have done so by your dress and your deportment. And much more effectively than you could by your voice. When you have made another sin in his heart, how can you be innocent? Tell me whom does this world condemn? Whom do the judges in court punish? Those who drink poison or those who prepare it and administer the fatal potion? You are more criminal than those who poison the body. You have given the death-dealing drink. You murder not the body but the soul, and it is not to enemies do you do this nor are you urged on by any imaginary necessity nor provoked by injury. But you do it out of foolish vanity and pride.’

St. John Chrysostem, Bishop, Doctor, Father of the Church to women who dress immodestly.

Among adults there are few saved because of sins of the flesh.

St. Regimius or Rheims

I was watching souls going down into the abyss as thick and fast as snowflakes falling in the winter mist.

St. Benedict Joseph Labre

 

[imasinner]

It still boils down to the fact that you put the burden of a man’s sin on what a woman wears! Adam and Eve were embarassed by their nakedness because their innocence was destroyed by their disobedience to God’s command.

 

[Sam_777]

A good Christian woman does not, absolutely does not, wear lingerie, a swimsuit bikini or not, or similar revealing clothing, in front of men in the general public. She wears modest clothing. She conceals her body, and the proper reaction to not concealing herself properly is from the natural law – a blush of shamefacedness.

I sympathize with those mistrained by the worldly culture – but educate yourself! For the sake of souls – Read what the holy people have to say.

This is the lesson from Adam and Eve. One does not get to walk around and act as if everyone else was a saint and one bears no responsibility for how one appears to others. To appear badly is the sin of scandal at least.

We are told – woe to those who bring scandal to the little ones, it is better to have a millstone around one’s neck. Woe to those who make it more difficult than it should be for young men to be pure of heart, just as it is woe to those young men for failing to be pure of heart.

Innocence is that valuable, purity of heart that valuable.

It is not love of neighbor to claim that because men easily fall into this sin, that all of the responsibility for the sin is on the men. A person who places a cake in front of a starving man bears part of the responsibility for the man’s sudden salivation and great desire for the cake.

It is a sin to tempt others to sin. One does not have to mean to do it directly, one has to simply not care about it.

It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that men and women are to dress modestly, and that to not do so for a woman, and not care about tempting others, is a mortal sin.

This may not be convenient, but God did not make this world for our convenience, and such values are of the world, not of love of God.

It is a mortal sin for a woman to dress immodestly in the general public, as a general rule – because it can lead to the death of the souls of men. There are exceptions, when in an emergency it cannot be helped, but these do not break the general rule.

We must have purity and work against the passions working improperly through the senses. We have to hate concupiscence.

Men and women are different. For a man to see a woman dressed immodestly, cannot be directly compared to a woman seeing a man dressed so. Rather, a woman would feel something closer to a man in regards to temptation only if she was directly touched. I said this before, though I do not like to say it and people should not focus on it – but the closest comparison is, a woman should not unclothe any part of her body she would have difficulty with a man touching.

Some people pretend because there are exceptions for emergencies general rules do not exist and there is never any sin. This is a lie. The exceptions prove the rule, its reason for existence.

Good Christians when told they are sinners, reflect upon the matter and make certain to have knowledge of what it is so they may correct itself if need be.

I pray we all be good Christians.

I am not here because I want to ruin any woman’s day or upset her, I want to help… I want beautifully modest women that the Lord loves to see the modesty of. That is what is beautiful to God in women’s appearances – modesty, not fashion. That is what He loves. Sometimes help is painful. But the Lord’s path is one of the cross, not the road of convenience – though it truly is, in the long run, the easiest road. ‘He who dwells continually within his own heart is detached from the attractions of this world, for he lives in the Spirit and cannot know the desires of the flesh. Such a man henceforward walks up and down within the fortress of the virtues which keep guard at all the gates of his purity. The assaults of the demons are now ineffective against him, even though the arrows of sensual desire reach as far as the doorways of his senses.’

St. Diadochos of Photiki

‘You carry your snare everywhere and spread your net in all places. You allege that you never invited others to sin. You did not indeed by your words, but you have done so by your dress and your deportment. And much more effectively than you could by your voice. When you have made another sin in his heart, how can you be innocent? Tell me whom does this world condemn? Whom do the judges in court punish? Those who drink poison or those who prepare it and administer the fatal potion? You are more criminal than those who poison the body. You have given the death-dealing drink. You murder not the body but the soul, and it is not to enemies do you do this nor are you urged on by any imaginary necessity nor provoked by injury. But you do it out of foolish vanity and pride.’

St. John Chrysostem, Bishop, Doctor, Father of the Church to women who dress immodestly.

Among adults there are few saved because of sins of the flesh.

St. Regimius or Rheims

I was watching souls going down into the abyss as thick and fast as snowflakes falling in the winter mist.

St. Benedict Joseph Labre

 

[Sam_777]

You deeply disappoint me …

Men have been blaming women for their inadequacies since Adam blamed Eve for his eating of the forbidden fruit.

:console:

:hug1:

 

[GraceDK]

:console:

:hug1:

I advice you in the name of Jesus to leave all the slavery of Islam behind.
You have accepted the Lord, then accept the freedom too. Do not place laws and rules on others which you yourself would not dream of touching with a stick.

To the men who ask women to wear burkhas. you are weak. You lack charity and empathy. Indeed… you havent understood that in order to be Christian you treat others like you want to be treated. None of you would think it was fair if I told you: You are a man, you are sexually attractive to me, therefore YOU must wear a tent or I will slander, beat or even kill you.

 

[Sam_777]

None of you would think it was fair if I told you: You are a man, you are sexually attractive to me, therefore YOU must wear a tent or I will slander, beat or even kill you.

No, I think its fair and I would wear a tent for you.

 

[churchdefender]

God bless you!

 

[Shin]

It is good to hear.

I would gladly wear whatever clothing necessary to help souls. It would in fact, be a pleasant discovery that through one’s clothing one could help souls rather than hinder them and please God.

A black robe would be fine. Whatever it takes.

"As long as modesty is not put into practice the society will continue to degrade. Society reveals itself by the clothes it wears. . . To say that ‘modesty is a matter of custom’ is just as wrong as to say that ‘honesty is a matter of custom’.’

‘O Christian mothers, if you only knew what a future of worries and dangers, of ill subdued doubts, of hardly suppressed shame you lay up for your sons and your daughters by imprudently accustoming them to live barely attired, making them lose the nature sense of modesty, you yourselves would blush, and take fright at the shame you inflict upon yourselves, and the harm which you occasion to your children, entrusted to you by Heaven to be brought up in a Christian manner.’

‘We repeat to many women among the faithful, and pious women at that, who by showing their approval of this or that fashion, by their example lay low the last barriers which hold back from that fashion a mass of their sisters for whom it may be a source of spiritual ruin. As long as certain audacious modes of dress remain the sad privilege of women of dubious reputation and almost a sign by which they may be known, no one else would dare to wear that same dress herself: but the moment that it appears upon persons beyond all reproach, she will hesitate no longer to follow the current, a current which will drag her perhaps to the worst falls.’

‘O how truly it was said that if some Christian women could only suspect the temptations and falls they cause in others with modes of dress and familiarity in behavior, which they unthinkingly consider as of no importance, they would be shocked by the responsibility which is theirs.’

‘They have lost the very concept of danger; they have lost the instinct of modesty.’

‘We read in the Passion of Perpetua and Felicity – rightly regarded as one of the most precious gems of early Christian literature – that in the ampitheatre at Carthage, when the martyr Vibia Perpetua, thrown high into the air by a savage cow, fell to the ground, her first thought and action was to rearrange her dress to cover her thigh, because she was more concerned for modesty than pain. . .’

Pope Pius XII

 

[dolphinlove]

Yes i can just see it now, im not going to get into heaven because i wear a bikini
But seriously folks, we are not judged by what we wear, its by what we do.
If men and/or women have trouble keeping their urges under control because of what we wear, its not our fault.
It took me 4 years to grow my hair, there is no way im going to keep it under some scarf!
Why would God give us hair anyway? to cover it? unlikely!!!
Its all about self control and some people fail this test, they just have to pray and ask for God’s help to make them stronger.

 

[GraceDK]

It is good to hear.

I would gladly wear whatever clothing necessary to help souls. It would in fact, be a pleasant discovery that through one’s clothing one could help souls rather than hinder them and please God.

A black robe would be fine. Whatever it takes.

‘.’

No, please dont wear a tent. Because if someone ever tells you to wear a tent I will stand up for your right not to wear it. I will stand up for your human right and your dignity to be seen and treated as a person of absolute value no matter what you wear.

It’s fascinating for me to see that in the countries where women are covered most, are the same countries where they have least rights. In SaudiArabia women are not allowed to do gymnastics, they are not allowed to vote, they are not allowed to drive or go outside their home without a male companion. All over the middle east women are battered and violated, honour killed (3 DAILY in Pakistan Every DAY) and forcefully married off, while the systems are on the side of the perpetrators. Its all part of the islamic system. A back ward world view: I cant urge you enough to listen to this arab woman for 3 minutes while she talks about this precise issue:
youtube.com/watch?v=ouztv-tRPKM&feature=PlayList&p=90361C213F0F8200&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=14

You may have your fine ideas theoretically, but I assure you, the day women start to tell Christian men to waer a burkha or chador, you will start questioning the intention of these women… and you should. because their aim would be to dominate you. To overstep your personal freedom actually.

Today I have been walking around in a warm city… the sun was shining and I was sweating in my two layers of clothes. I walked by a number of Muslims who wore three layers of clothes and a full scarf to cover them tighly to their face. These women think they are free and modest… respected. But what a heavy price to pay for respect. Actually I dont even want the respect of men who want to supress women this way. Should I want to marry and raise the children of a man who wants me dressed up and sweating heavily because he didnt trust me? And dont tell me they dont think like that. I have had an Arab boyfriend. He said: “You dont have to wear a scarf, because I do trust you”.

I’d rather go naked than being respected by people who want to supress my womanhood and dehumanise me and silence me.

By the way… where is your pic? I asked for it the other day. You said we should look like Mary and Jesus… so where is your pic where you wear a long tunic. I assume you also have a full beard… because many a Nazarean man would have felt greatly immodest and naked without one.

Your thinking is SICK. Sorry, but it really is.

 

[Shin]

No, please dont wear a tent. Because if someone ever tells you to wear a tent I will stand up for your right not to wear it. I will stand up for your human right and your dignity to be seen and treated as a person of absolute value no matter what you wear.

This has nothing to do with secular or feminist human rights and dignity, it has to do with Christian morals.

All over the middle east women are battered and violated, honour killed (3 DAILY in Pakistan Every DAY) and forcefully married off, while the systems are on the side of the perpetrators.

Do you know how much sex crime is committed in the United States, and how much sexual sin?

You may have your fine ideas theoretically, but I assure you, the day women start to tell Christian men to waer a burkha or chador, you will start questioning the intention of these women… and you should. because their aim would be to dominate you. To overstep your personal freedom actually.

My mother told me I had to wear good clean clothes to school, and I listened to her. I did not feel dominated, only mothered, nor was that a germane concern.

Actually I dont even want the respect of men who want to supress women this way. Should I want to marry and raise the children of a man who wants me dressed up and sweating heavily because he didnt trust me?

I’d rather go naked than being respected by people who want to supress my womanhood and dehumanise me and silence me.

So it doesn’t matter if the Pope or God tells you, you have to wear certain clothing, you won’t do it no matter what? Would you listen to anyone about this?

I am sorry but you should change what you’ve put in your religion listing if this is your perspective on the matter. You are not forming your morals based on religious principles but on the world’s values.

Cultures change, corruptions happen, it can be hard to wake up but it has to be done.

In Christianity the soul is more important than the whole world, than life itself. It is more important than clothing, and God’s laws do mean we have to restrict our behaviors and do certain things, like wear modest clothing.

We do have to care about our neighbors, and how to help them not to sin, rather than our own selves and our selfish conveniences.

Your thinking is SICK. Sorry, but it really is.

You’re not trying to walk in anyone else’s shoes are you, or understand this? You’re so full of this passion supporting this cause of yours.

Where is your modest consideration that you might have made a mistake and your cause might not be of God?

 

[GraceDK]

This has nothing to do with secular or feminist human rights and dignity, it has to do with Christian morals.

…You’re not trying to walk in anyone else’s shoes are you, or understand this? You’re so full of this passion supporting this cause of yours.

Where is your modest consideration that you might have made a mistake and your cause might not be of God?

Actually, yes I am passionate. I am passionately agaisnt suppressive ideologies and laws of slavery that people who call them selves Christian want to put down on others.

I am at peace with God thank you. I wear what I find to be modest. However, you should be concerned about your soul because in your mind you judge and wish to enslave other people.

My cause is from God. I am sure that if God wanted me to wear a burkha he could tell me. Instead what I hear Him saying is: The Muslims are in slavery. they try to dominate their women in a unhealthy way.

Again… where is you pic? You loose credibility if you dont apply your standards to your self…