The bravest Muslim girl..

[GraceDK]

I hope some real Catholic men will soon enter this debate and say the truth. If shin is representative to Catholic males then I am going to marry outside the faith. In all my life as a protestant I never heard such shuvanism as on this thread and others here. The more I encounter such oppinions by Catholic men the more I understand how feminism became a movement in the first place. I do not agree with feminism but the views presented here are equally tragic.

 

[dolphinlove]

In Christianity the soul is more important than the whole world, than life itself. It is more important than clothing

Exactly, so do you think God will judge us by the way we dress? If a person wishes to dress how they want to, they can do so. Its not our fault if people may lust or get the wrong idea in their heads, its THEIR fault.
We are not the ones who are sinning, its the person with the lustful thoughts.

 

[GraceDK]

Exactly, so do you think God will judge us by the way we dress? If a person wishes to dress how they want to, they can do so. Its not our fault if people may lust or get the wrong idea in their heads, its THEIR fault.
We are not the ones who are sinning, its the person with the lustful thoughts.

I think there is a balance.
If a person intends to incite lust by showing her cleavage or whatever… then she is sinning.
However, we all must take care of our own thoughts and actions. Because in the end that is the only thing we are going to answer about. The other persons sin is his/her own. I have mine… no one was ever forced to sin…
The other day I saw a group of naked indians on tv… did they sin? No I dont think so actually. Their society worked… there was no more sexual abuse, fornication or adultery there than elsewhere.
As Christians in a culture like ours we have a responsibility for how we dress and act, both men and women. I dont think cleavage is right, but I would not legislate on it. thats not my business. As a Christian I seek to evangelise and when people understand their worth and the worth of their bodies, of purity and sexuality, then they dont want to wear very challenging clothes… Its a mindset change we need, not a new religious law…

There is this important balance… and that is the one that Shin totally oversteps when he says women should wear clothes that actually take away their identity and person. It was said that a woman who wears a bikini is a hooker. Such words judge the person who said them himself.

If I walk around here naked on a hot summers day then I am not a good role model for the children in society, nor do I respect my body and the marriage where this body should only be seen… I talk about private parts, because the body in itself is not unclean.

Peace.
I think we should close this thread.
I posted this video because I wanted to celebrate the freedom of a young girl in a sick culture. What I have seen is people explaining it away or even advocating that a little girl cant have her hair free as she plays on the street.
This thread has turned into a thread advocating islamic wear. It shows that there really is some sick tendencies that religious men can get caught in.

 

[Shin]

Exactly, so do you think God will judge us by the way we dress? If a person wishes to dress how they want to, they can do so. Its not our fault if people may lust or get the wrong idea in their heads, its THEIR fault.
We are not the ones who are sinning, its the person with the lustful thoughts.

Modesty: the Virtue That Guards Purity

We can’t be so irresponsible as to say we can do nothing that helps others to sin, and we cannot be so selfish as not to care about other people who are weak to sins and not watch out for our brothers and sisters.

God loves lily like purity and the modesty of a lamb. People who are immodest, who let it all hang out in their emotions, passions, or dress, are not acting as Christ desires.

We must care about our neighbor’s souls! More than we even care about their bodies and bodily life itself! That is why clothing is not important relative to the soul – for the sake of our souls, not in spite of it! If we do not care about others’ souls and wear whatever we want, then God will judge us for our selfishness. If we care about other’s souls, and wear what is modest, God will approve our modesty.

Loving God restricts our personal freedom. It’s a choice. We choose to not do certain things that are sinful, that cause others to sin.

God loves everyone and calls everyone to come to see Him. To see Him you must be pure. No one else is allowed in, but everyone is called to become so.

There are always standards of modesty that exist across all cultures.

I think many women have become used to and do not understand how many kinds of dress are provocative. If they looked back a few years, to different cultures, they’d know it – the standard now is no standard, no modesty, ‘sexy’ is good. But it is not, it is evil.

If you remember that, and listen to the standards in the audio above, it will help.

Some things we should only feel for a spouse. Men and women need to work on restraining themselves. Men from taking what they should not take with their eyes, and women from offering what they should not offer with their bodies.

 

[Shin]

Let me repeat, just remember: The fashion standard of ‘sexy’ is evil. Modest is good.

Do not dress in the ways the magazines tell you, do not feel, or provoke in the ways they tell you.

And for men, stop pursuing women for the sake of their appearances. It is the soul that matters. If you marry a woman for her looks, it is not likely to last.

For the sake of your soul if you’re at all easily tempted as a man, you should only court women who are unattractive to you. Then you will not be tempted and she will be the best for your soul.

But frankly a man should not be considering marriage or any sort of prelude for it until he is certain he can commit to one woman and stops looking at all of them adulterously. It is a deadly sin. If you cannot commit to restraint beforehand, what makes you think you will be faithful after?

And both of you will learn what real love is, and not superficial lust.

If you only want to marry someone who looks good, then the real reason you want to marry is revealed – and it is not a good reason, nor one proper for marriage.

I am not saying that it is not alright to look good, or be admired for it. But I am saying that you can only do so properly when dressed modestly, and looking modestly, and that you cannot value it too much.

People should only briefly admire others for such things, and for the sake of God only.

 

[Hadi]

Imagine a group of people who wear immodest clothes ,imagine the reaction of people toward them,now this group was mixed with other group who wear modest clothes…the reaction toward the first group would increase…(the modest group has become a reference point)

now I understand why some don’t want to see the scarf around…

 

[GraceDK]

Imagine a group of people who wear immodest clothes ,imagine the reaction of people toward them,now this group was mixed with other group who wear modest clothes…the reaction toward the first group would increase…(the modest group has become a reference point)

now I understand why some don’t want to see the scarf around…

Hadi,
I dont have a problem with the scarf. I sometimes wear a scarf myself (however I do it in the Jewish- and orthodox Christian way and mostly in Church)… however, what does bother me is when the scarf covers a bunch of sin.
I will illustrate: a girl may wear a scarf and while she wears it she is thinking: “I am just and pure and good, everyone that don’t look like me are like prostitutes, they are impure and bad”.
This girl is a sinner. She has comitted far greater sins that immodesty, because her mind is full of evilness towards her neighbour.
Jesus said that people who are proud and self-righteous in their mind are like graves inside.
Only God knows your mind and heart. If you view everyone with love and understanding and you seek to excuse them when you see them do something less than good, then you are a good person. If your morality is only in your hallal-rules and your salaat and your scarf, and the rest of your heart is poison, then your presence does not bless the world and your religion benefits you nothing.

Peace.

 

[Hadi]

Hadi,
I dont have a problem with the scarf. I sometimes wear a scarf myself (however I do it in the Jewish- and orthodox Christian way and mostly in Church)… however, what does bother me is when the scarf covers a bunch of sin.
I will illustrate: a girl may wear a scarf and while she wears it she is thinking: “I am just and pure and good, everyone that don’t look like me are like prostitutes, they are impure and bad”.
This girl is a sinner. She has comitted far greater sins that immodesty, because her mind is full of evilness towards her neighbour.
Jesus said that people who are proud and self-righteous in their mind are like graves inside.
Only God knows your mind and heart. If you view everyone with love and understanding and you seek to excuse them when you see them do something less than good, then you are a good person. If your morality is only in your hallal-rules and your salaat and your scarf, and the rest of your heart is poison, then your presence does not bless the world and your religion benefits you nothing.

Peace.

no,no Muslimah I know here walks around saying “I am just and pure and good, everyone that don’t look like me are like prostitutes, they are impure and bad”

this is absurd,otherwise, no one should go to the Church , since in their walk to the church they say “I’m holy and the others are unholy” !!

You said you have no problem with the scarf,but in your orignial post,you labeled Muslim women Brainwashed, why ?? it’s because they wear a scarf …

Why is it that a woman who wears a scarf is labeled "Brainwashed, backward, extremist, oppressed …etc) while one who wears a bikini is "Brave, free ,God is ok with her wearing bikini …etc)

the same reasoning you have ,is used in Turkey to ban scarf, (having women who wear a scarf in university, puts pressure on the women who don’t wear)

this absurd reasoning ,otherwise,
don’t go to the church,
don’t wear crucifix,
don’t read the bible in public ,

 

[GraceDK]

**Hadi;
no,no Muslimah I know here walks around saying “I am just and pure and good, everyone that don’t look like me are like prostitutes, they are impure and bad” **

I am not saying that all Muslims look down on those who dont wear a scarf, but for those who do - like the ones in the video who wanted to pressure the girl to take on the veil - I say they have a bigger sin than immodesty. Also its a known fact that many muslim women who immigrated to the West actually do go around bashing normal western woman in their daily talk and call them sluts.

You said you have no problem with the scarf,but in your orignial post,you labeled Muslim women Brainwashed, why ?? it’s because they wear a scarf …

No. Its not because they wear a scarf, that they are brainwashed, although I personally believe that there is a huge difference between a burka and a scarf . I said they were brainwahsed because they did not respect the freedom and integrity of a girl who choses not to wear the scarf. please look at the facts and dont put words in my mouth. Why is it that you have failed to say that the behaviour in the video was unacceptable and that everyone should have a right to choose freely??. you have only silence on the persecution of the girl… I see people that dont respect the freedom of others as people who are indeed brainwashed to some extent. at least they are not healthy and compassionate individuals anymore.
I want you to see this short speech about islam and psychology by the Syrian
Wafa Sultan: youtube.com/watch?v=yrP5fB0UXNk&feature=fvw.
She really makes my points, but maybe you will listen to her while you dont want to listen to me.

Why is it that a woman who wears a scarf is labeled "Brainwashed, backward, extremist, oppressed …etc) while one who wears a bikini is "Brave, free ,God is ok with her wearing bikini …etc)the same reasoning you have ,is used in Turkey to ban scarf, (having women who wear a scarf in university, puts pressure on the women who don’t wear)

Again you put words into my mouth that I didnt say. You are free to argue with your self…
I dont know much about Turkey, but I imagine that they have banned scarfs from certain public offices because the scarf has become a symbol of an anti-democratic totalitarian system.

this absurd reasoning ,otherwise,
don’t go to the church,
don’t wear crucifix,
don’t read the bible in public ,

You are speaking nonsense…
Its okay. I guess you have not grown up in a culture where you learned to argue for your points or to hold up some topic and look at it critically without getting emotional and irrational.

Peace to you Hadi…

 

[rtconstant]

This has nothing to do with secular or feminist human rights and dignity, it has to do with Christian morals.

That’s true but morality comes from within, not from without. Certainly modesty is good, and one should try to tempt someone else. However, that individual still bears responsibility for themselves, and it is up to them to not sin. If woman walks naked in front of me it is up to me to not lust and/or attack her. The blame lies totally with me.

I will however state that some communities are less enlightened than others. In the Muslim world, men don’t carry honor only women. I man can be as big an idiot as he wishes and no loss of honor is incurred. A woman though bares the honor of the family and society. So one could argue that its in her best interest to wear the veil since it might protect her from the predators surrounding her. However, the veils have not done a good job historically of protecting Muslim woman from any sort of indignity.

Do you know how much sex crime is committed in the United States, and how much sexual sin?

Yes about the same as in ME. The difference is that we actually call crime and violence, crime and violence in the West. Legally it isn’t possible for a woman to be raped in much of the ME, though in reality it happens about as often as here, maybe more, and it will continue as long as men are not expected to control themselves.

My mother told me I had to wear good clean clothes to school, and I listened to her. I did not feel dominated, only mothered, nor was that a germane concern.

I don’t think anyone is saying that clean clothes or modesty is bad. However, hiding your identity simply because the men around you can’t control themselves. Or because they’re afraid of their own personal reputations is repugnant.

So it doesn’t matter if the Pope or God tells you, you have to wear certain clothing, you won’t do it no matter what? Would you listen to anyone about this?

Well, I don’t think there are disciplines form the pope on clothing, and God created us naked so I don’t think it matters a great deal to them. The key is in seeing yourself and others as something more than mere sexual objects.

I am sorry but you should change what you’ve put in your religion listing if this is your perspective on the matter. You are not forming your morals based on religious principles but on the world’s values.

That is uncharitable.

Cultures change, corruptions happen, it can be hard to wake up but it has to be done.

Indeed cultures do change and become corrupted. Our world is far to driven by lust it has been for must of our history. Skimpy clothing is symptom not a cause. When we make it scape goat we ignore the real problem.

In Christianity the soul is more important than the whole world, than life itself. It is more important than clothing, and God’s laws do mean we have to restrict our behaviors and do certain things, like wear modest clothing.

Well, yes that is advisable however no one was ever damned for what they wore.

We do have to care about our neighbors, and how to help them not to sin, rather than our own selves and our selfish conveniences.

True, and if a particular neighbor is lust driven that just seeing a woman causes him to sin then yes as other posters have said it would be a good idea to not be around them. But anyone that is driven to sin just because they can see a woman has much larger problems.

You’re not trying to walk in anyone else’s shoes are you, or understand this? You’re so full of this passion supporting this cause of yours.

Its true that people have different problems and it is certainly wise to keep these in mind. However, it is not unreasonable to expect a certain level of responsibility in behavior in others.

Where is your modest consideration that you might have made a mistake and your cause might not be of God?

The world has tried putting the blame on fashions of the day in the past. These have not rid the world of sin, or even lessened it for that matter. Because it avoids the problem. As long as we allow others to not take responsibility for themselves. No amount of clothes will change anything.

 

[imasinner]

No, I think its fair and I would wear a tent for you.

Sam, It’s fine if you want to wear a tent but for me to force it on you in case I should sin is immoral. It saddens me that you cannot fathom this for a 13yr old child. How much skin do you think is morally (according to your morals i.e) acceptable for her to show in public? To speak out like she does is courageous considering the very real consequences she faces from people who think as you (and Shin) do but will cause her harm. You do not respect her decision to unveil because of what a muslim man may or may not think. It’s more than sad really it’s insane.

When missionaries first set foot on my homeland the first thing they did was put clothes on my people. What was previously viewed as natural was now seen as immoral. But it was only immoral in the eyes of the missionary and my people had to learn to view it as such. Today, in my homeland, even though they are Christians a woman is not allowed to wear singlets, trousers or shorts in public which is a punishable crime by way of a fine or lost of a good reputation for repeated offences. My homeland is similar to yours in that it is ruled by men. Men make the decisions and women are second-class citizens. My homeland is not a democracy but a geriocracy and a male is considered an elder at 60 years of age. What I find ridiculous is my mother who is 79 is simply an old woman not an elder because she is female. She is only an elder to other woman but to men it is in name only. So what am I saying? Simply this…It is MAN who will restrict a woman’s freedom because of whatever reason NOT God.

 

[GraceDK]

Sam, It’s fine if you want to wear a tent but for me to force it on you in case I should sin is immoral. It saddens me that you cannot fathom this for a 13yr old child. How much skin do you think is morally (according to your morals i.e) acceptable for her to show in public? To speak out like she does is courageous considering the very real consequences she faces from people who think as you (and Shin) do but will cause her harm. You do not respect her decision to unveil because of what a muslim man may or may not think. It’s more than sad really it’s insane.

When missionaries first set foot on my homeland the first thing they did was put clothes on my people. What was previously viewed as natural was now seen as immoral. But it was only immoral in the eyes of the missionary and my people had to learn to view it as such. Today, in my homeland, even though they are Christians a woman is not allowed to wear singlets, trousers or shorts in public which is a punishable crime by way of a fine or lost of a good reputation for repeated offences. My homeland is similar to yours in that it is ruled by men. Men make the decisions and women are second-class citizens. My homeland is not a democracy but a geriocracy and a male is considered an elder at 60 years of age. What I find ridiculous is my mother who is 79 is simply an old woman not an elder because she is female. She is only an elder to other woman but to men it is in name only. So what am I saying? Simply this…It is MAN who will restrict a woman’s freedom because of whatever reason NOT God.

Excatly.

 

[Sam_777]

You do not respect her decision to unveil because of what a muslim man may or may not think. It’s more than sad really it’s insane.

No imasinner no :hug1:, not because of what a Muslim man may or may not think, but because she would protect herself from others, even if the others are wrong, for example when you drive your car and another car makes a bad turn on you, will you try to avoid it or you will let it hit you and say its that car mistake.

 

[GraceDK]

No imasinner no :hug1:, not because of what a Muslim man may or may not think, but because she would protect herself from others, even if the others are wrong, for example when you drive your car and another car makes a bad turn on you, will you try to avoid it or you will let it hit you and say its that car mistake.

Sam this is why all Muslim women should drop their tents at the same time and stand up for their right to be seen as women. That is what you should be advocating. Also, one brave girl will wake up more brave girls… together they can protest the sick system.

 

[imasinner]

No imasinner no :hug1:, not because of what a Muslim man may or may not think, but because she would protect herself from others, even if the others are wrong, for example when you drive your car and another car makes a bad turn on you, will you try to avoid it or you will let it hit you and say its that car mistake.

Sam, the fact that any woman MUST wear a veil in public to protect herself from physical harm from her fellow Muslim citizens is not from God. Your car analogy doesnt make sense as we both have equal rights to drive a car. Even so, the driver who makes a bad turn is not a deliberate attempt to limit my freedom on the road but human error (poor judgement). A muslim woman is not given a choice to veil or unveil nor is she given a choice to drive a car in your homeland. If your mother was to decide to unveil in public would you lose respect for her and if another seeks to harm her physically would you think the violence perpetrated on her is justified? Should we not seek to change the mentality of those who would use violence rather than blame the victim of violence and look for excuses to justify it? Not wearing a veil is not inviting (which is what you imply) or desiring others to harm her but borne of her desire to be FREE (to be a child ).

Anyhow, thanks for the :hug1: I’m sure your intentions are pure but your reasoning is kinda :whacky: . May Our Lord bless you and keep you safe. :hug3:

 

[Shin]

Unless you agree with a woman being blameless for walking naked through the streets, you agree with the principle of clothing being necessary.

All the rest is simply a matter of arguing over the degree of application.

Hopefully no one is so shameless here.

 

[GraceDK]

Unless you agree with a woman being blameless for walking naked through the streets, you agree with the principle of clothing being necessary.

All the rest is simply a matter of arguing over the degree of application.

Hopefully no one is so shameless here.

Nudity is not intrinisically evil.

And I am still waiting for your picture showing you in long tunic and full beard since you think people should be dressed like Jesus and Mary.

Another thing… a rhetorical advice. I you want to speak about modesty or lack thereof, do so mentioning not only one, but both genders. There are a huge number of men, also christians, who sit down on their but and violate the modesty command severel times a week while they watch porn, or speak dirty about women with their buddies in order to be accepted…

 

[imasinner]

Unless you agree with a woman being blameless for walking naked through the streets, you agree with the principle of clothing being necessary.

All the rest is simply a matter of arguing over the degree of application.

Hopefully no one is so shameless here.

Shin:

Can you read a person’s mind and intent, Shin? You likened a bikini clad woman on a beach to a prostitute so your opinion is extreme and unChristian. But most of all you, like the elders in my homeland, you use Christianity to try and impose your will over what a woman should or should not wear in public. We are not imbeciles that we cannot judge for ourself what is modest or immodest. I think you would be happier in a cult.

 

[Hadi]

GraceDK ,

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[dzheremi]

This thread has become ridiculous. Why are we all arguing over different culturally-informed standards of dress? If Sam thinks that a nun’s habit is better to preserve the modesty of a woman than the burqa or hijab, then what is the problem? Frankly, I agree with him. Is it that he is a man, so having an opinion is somehow being “unfair” to women? I don’t understand. Modesty is everybody’s business. I thought that the point of the hijab being a “problem” is not that women are wearing it starting at a young age (Orthodox women do too!), but that they are forced to wear it by social custom and risk injury and insult if they do not, so that it ceases to be a statement about their personal commitment to modesty and piety and is instead done in order to avoid punishment from the wicked earthly authorities that act as God at all times in the Islamic lands. Am I wrong here?

I don’t see a problem with that sign that Hadi posted. It is just requesting that women observe the local religious dress code when they are in the neighbhorhood…not really that much different than asking your son or daughter (or husband or wife, for that matter!) to dress in a clean, modest way for Mass. That is our religious custom (or it should be), borne of our love for and fidelity to God. Who can honestly object to it?