The bravest Muslim girl..

[GraceDK]

This thread has become ridiculous. Why are we all arguing over different culturally-informed standards of dress? If Sam thinks that a nun’s habit is better to preserve the modesty of a woman than the burqa or hijab, then what is the problem? Frankly, I agree with him. Is it that he is a man, so having an opinion is somehow being “unfair” to women? I don’t understand. Modesty is everybody’s business. I thought that the point of the hijab being a “problem” is not that women are wearing it starting at a young age (Orthodox women do too!), but that they are forced to wear it by social custom and risk injury and insult if they do not, so that it ceases to be a statement about their personal commitment to modesty and piety and is instead done in order to avoid punishment from the wicked earthly authorities that act as God at all times in the Islamic lands. Am I wrong here?

I don’t see a problem with that sign that Hadi posted. It is just requesting that women observe the local religious dress code when they are in the neighbhorhood…not really that much different than asking your son or daughter (or husband or wife, for that matter!) to dress in a clean, modest way for Mass. That is our religious custom (or it should be), borne of our love for and fidelity to God. Who can honestly object to it?

Sam did not advocate just nun’s habit over the hijab or burka. He advocated it in generel using even the “logic” that such modesty “protects” the women against assault and therefore they should wear it.
Also, there is a huge difference between an orthodox woman who wears a scarf tied at the back of her head - even I wear this sometimes - and a hijab or burka.
A burka or nuns habit preserve the modesty of a woman, you say… I dont agree with this statement whatsoever, because I think the mindset behind such extreme covering is not inline with the Gospel-freedom, nor does it show anything truly about modesty. If you want to be modest then wear something normal and natural, not treating your body as something unclean.
And look, I would like for you as a man to pose this simple question to yourself: If someone asked me to wear a hijab or burka and told me this was modest and selfrespecting for me, how would I feel about that?

Luckily women can respect a man even if his hair is free and he holds his head high. Why cant we just have the same respect ?

 

[GraceDK]

GraceDK ,

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Sx9cWcW6ihI/R4YpUZTMWSI/AAAAAAAAAS4/Y0v8m-EykJU/s320/IMMODEST-CLOTHES.gif

Aha Hadi… so you have been in Meashearim? So have I, I have stood face to face with these signs and wondered if my long sleves were long enough and my long dress long enough… I knew that this particular Jewish minority is ruthless against people of other faiths and people who are not perceived to be modest enough. Even people from this group spat at my priest, who was by the way wearing a all covering black cassock, and they make life difficult for Jesus-believing Jews in the Holy Land.
So I understand why you would indeed, as a Muslim, identify with this certain minority group of Jews who in fact look down on you and everyone who are not one of them.

 

[imasinner]

GraceDK ,

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Sx9cWcW6ihI/R4YpUZTMWSI/AAAAAAAAAS4/Y0v8m-EykJU/s320/IMMODEST-CLOTHES.gif

The sign is addressed to “women and girls”, is there an equivalent sign for men and boys nearby?

 

[GraceDK]

The sign is addressed to “women and girls”, is there an equivalent sign for men and boys nearby?

hehehe… well, if you look closer that the poster, it is actually also directed at men: it says: “NO TRAUSERS PLEASE” hahahahaha … wonder what their men wear then… dear me… it’s ridiculous. I remember very clearly that day in warm Jerusalem when I actually got lost in MeaShearim… I was so scared… really, scared like I would be in an Islamic state, that someone might harass me on the street because my dress was not angle length but only till under the knee … When I saw two secular Jews, a young man and women both with short hair and pants, I ran to them and nearly embraced them. How happy I was to see secular people… they kindly helped me find my way out of that place where people were way too covered for the season.
To be honest I think the Jewish men in that community ought to be ashamed of themselves. Who of them will stand up for women rights and a reasonable mindset about these things?.. no one… sometimes I am not surprised that feminism actually came into existence. It’s due to sick systems that men don’t object to, systems that maltreat and supress women. Where are the men in the Islamic world eg. that are willing to risk their lives for the women in their families to have equal rights to education, attire and vote.
You may ask: what does this have to do with clothes. Well, certain clothes is a symptom of very wrong world views… like the one that keeps the Arabic countries backward.

I post this again because I think everyone ought to see it… there are some breathtaking stories about what happens in cultures ruled by worldviews that have a sick view of women and sexuality. I highly respect this Syrian woman:
youtube.com/watch?v=up3yuQDAWKQ

 

[dzheremi]

Also, there is a huge difference between an orthodox woman who wears a scarf tied at the back of her head - even I wear this sometimes - and a hijab or burka.

The difference, I should think, is in the obedience that the Orthodox woman shows to God that the Muslimah does not necessarily show as Islamic societies mandate veiling as a matter of civil law. As I care about true piety, not false piety, one is a good example, the other is not.

A burka or nuns habit preserve the modesty of a woman, you say… I dont agree with this statement whatsoever, because I think the mindset behind such extreme covering is not inline with the Gospel-freedom, nor does it show anything truly about modesty.

So now you have a problem with nuns?! That is very sad. Please re-evaluate the lengths to which you are willing to argue against those who dedicate themselves to God like nuns do just to prove a point. It is not good to talk about nuns as though they have an intrinsically evil or anti-Gospel agenda.

If you want to be modest then wear something normal and natural, not treating your body as something unclean.

I already do, thank you.

And look, I would like for you as a man to pose this simple question to yourself: If someone asked me to wear a hijab or burka and told me this was modest and selfrespecting for me, how would I feel about that?

As a man, I already have a certain dress code which I follow both at Mass and in the secular world. This includes no tight clothing, no sexually provocative messages on clothing or anything like that, and a general effort to behave myself in a way that reflects the faith. Would I wear anything additional to this if it were a matter of religious piety? Well, if it could be worn in a way that is in keeping with the standards of piety befitting my religion, yes I would. What do you want me to say? Please refer back to my other post, where I said that the problem with the hijab in an Islamic context is not that women wear it, but that they wear it regardless of their personal piety. It would be the same for a man like me wearing it. I would not want to adopt it or anything else like it under false pretenses.

Luckily women can respect a man even if his hair is free and he holds his head high. Why cant we just have the same respect ?

You can and hopefully you do. I do not know where in my post you might have picked up the idea that I don’t think you should, but I’m sorry if it read that way. It was not intended that way, that’s for sure.

My thinking in line with these issues is not that everyone should be compelled to wear so many things that show their piety, because after all we are called to be humble in our piety, but that there seems to be an attitude among many western Christians who are so in love with their freedom to not observe this part of religious custom that this freedom to abstain is held in a higher position than the religious custom itself! That seems backwards to me, and if everyone had this attitude then our religious traditions would surely die. I do not judge anyone who chooses not to veil, but I am not going to lie and say that I have no problem with those who decry veiling as “oppressive” because they don’t personally want to do it. The Church is not a battleground for feminism or anti-feminism. It is where we come together as one to worship God in accordance with the traditions that have been handed down to us. For some, this includes veiling, in accordance with the traditions of their particular church and/or Mass/Divine Liturgy celebration. What is the problem with that?

 

[rtconstant]

Unless you agree with a woman being blameless for walking naked through the streets, you agree with the principle of clothing being necessary.

All the rest is simply a matter of arguing over the degree of application.

Hopefully no one is so shameless here.

Well, yeah I would see her as blameless.

Not saying there wouldn’t be problems. But those problems exist in the minds of everyone else. The woman isn’t generating lust, if any is present then that is supplied in full by those viewing her. The sin exists in them, not in her. Unless of course her intent was to generate lust then that belies sin in her.

It was Adam who created the idea of nakedness = shame. That was his hangup not God’s.

 

[Shin]

Well, yeah I would see her as blameless.

Not saying there wouldn’t be problems. But those problems exist in the minds of everyone else. The woman isn’t generating lust, if any is present then that is supplied in full by those viewing her. The sin exists in them, not in her. Unless of course her intent was to generate lust then that belies sin in her.

It was Adam who created the idea of nakedness = shame. That was his hangup not God’s.

No you misunderstand, the shame is a God given gift of the natural law. It is appropriate for sinners. You feel shame because you either feel something wrongly, sinfully seeing someone naked OR, because you are naked you are provoking it. The latter is natural and something to be embraced.

Be ashamed of provoking sin in others by your deeds! That too is sinful! That is the message of God. We cannot be careless of other people.

“Shamefacedness lays the first foundation of temperance. . .”

St. Ambrose

We are not allowed to go around naked, if we can help it. It doesn’t matter that the woman doesn’t -intend- to provoke lust, it only matters as excuse that -she has no choice- but to be naked, for example some dire circumstances.

I have already given the examples of the saints above, a Christian does not ignore those who bear Christ. I have also shown the words of Cardinals and Popes.

I have also on this thread written about how in Genesis God shows us that we need clothing, because of our sinful nature. Pretending we don’t have it, is a lie, and shamelessness in sin is from Hell, not from God.

How many times does God reprove Israel as a prostitute in scripture? She who he would have had as His beloved bride, but who turns aside to other suitors (idols of her imagination) from He who can give her all she desires if she but submits to His will.

The people here who blame everything on the man, are repeating what man haters have said for a long time… and stoking conflict between men and women. But there is no conflict in Christian men and women, they both understand that they are different. Men are not the same as women. Women are not the same as men. Men and women behave differently, because God has given them different **virtues **and different weaknesses, and they love each other by -respecting- each other’s weaknesses, and supporting each other so the will not fall.

Women are not as physically strong as men. So one of the virtues and perfections of men is to protect women and to do hard tasks, they are more capable because of their emotion lives being ordered towards emotionally difficult tasks too. Women, are more beautiful than men, and this is one of their perfections, and they also are better at communicating on the level of emotions, which causes them to bond with and understand very young children who do not yet think rationally better than men. Who can deny this is true? Who would want to if sensible?

In the Garden of Eden, God reveals to us both the perfections and weaknesses of men and women. He shows Adam as given authority over all creation, and Eve is brought before his authority for judgement. And so Eve herself, cared about her physical appearance because she was being brought to judgement before Adam. Adam loved her, and judged her worthy to be his wife, as he could not otherwise because it was true. She was beautiful inside and out. They married.

But Eve, tempted by Satan wanted to put herself above Adam, she would eat the apple and know more than he. Then she did, she ate it – and she gave it to Adam, who, because he loved Eve more than he loved God, disobeyed God too and ate the apple.

These sins and perfections are repeated unto this day, and until people learn the lessons in them how can they be reconciled to God? They will keep on sinning. Eve will keep trying to destroy Adam’s authority, and part of this is then shown in that she is so emotionally sensitive to his judgement of her appearance, she will in part of throwing off his authority and influence, wear whatever she wants.

Adam will keep preferring Eve to God, and loving her appearance and taking what she offers to him, sinfully, rather than exercising his authority properly in self denial. Instead of insisting on what he must do for God as the hard course, of showing leadership, he gives in.

When men and women understand their proper roles together, only then can they find true happiness. The world and secular society’s vices, which include misogyny and feminism, all teach the original sins of Adam and Eve, again and again, as if they were something new and liberating… But really…

They’re the same old evils as ever, and those who truly liberate are those who bring the message of Christ which includes self denial, and no shame in the traditional and loved roles of men and women where true happiness is found.

 

[GraceDK]

**dzheremi;
The difference, I should think, is in the obedience that the Orthodox woman shows to God that the Muslimah does not necessarily show as Islamic societies mandate veiling as a matter of civil law. As I care about true piety, not false piety, one is a good example, the other is not. **

But brother we must always ask if pious rules are in fact that.
When I wear a scarf in Church I do it in order to show humility to God… because my inner humility is not perceived to be sufficient to me. But if I am asked to cover my hair for men and pressured with religious, social or political reasons, then I certainly know that my freedom is under siege.

So now you have a problem with nuns?! That is very sad. Please re-evaluate the lengths to which you are willing to argue

You misunderstood. What we discuss here is modesty or lack thereof.
I will try to be precise: I see intention as key and I see both extremes as a kind of mocking of God who created us: if you cover extremely and call this modesty (and thus call other ways immodest) or if you clothe deliberately for the purpose of a sexual response in your neighbour. Both these are perversions.
I am not against nuns. A young woman who is wearing her own clothes and enters the convent, is no less modest than a nun who is wearing the full habit after 2 years. If the nun-attire was worn as as a symbol of modesty to be followed by all, and as a live-lecture, it would be an error. But no nun today wears it to say: See how modest I am and how you are not. I know nuns who are dressed in long veils and nuns who wear civil clothes and work at local hospitals. None is more modest than the other. You understand my point now?
The habit which was praised by Sam is a traditional habit from the Middle ages. its a traditional wear that is kept in use, not because it thereby wants to belittle normal womens’ attire or give any such statement. There is plenty of symbolism in nuns-habits… but modesty in itself is not one.

As a man, I already have a certain dress code which I follow both at Mass and in the secular world. (…)a general effort to behave myself in a way that reflects the faith.

As do probably every woman on this board. However, imagine that you wear what you wear and all the time you have to hear: men are not modest enough, why don’t you wear this and that, why dont you wear hats, beards, tunics, etc (and yes, there is such religious tyranny of men in some parts of the world too, where piety is an outward thing)…

** Would I wear anything additional to this if it were a matter of religious piety? Well, if it could be worn in a way that is in keeping with the standards of piety befitting my religion, yes I would.**

Exactly, so you do state that its a matter of your personal conscience right…? But what do you do if the rules of piety are layed out to you by women who say things you cant see the logic in, and you cant see the reasonableness of their demands on you? Can you imagine a female theological or glergical class who told you what to wear and then gave their own words a divine mandate?
thats what we see here repeatedly… many have a personal oppinion and then say: this is what God wants.

** What do you want me to say? Please refer back to my other post, where I said that the problem with the hijab in an Islamic context is not that women wear it, but that they wear it regardless of their personal piety. It would be the same for a man like me wearing it. I would not want to adopt it or anything else like it under false pretenses.**

This is where I difffer from your oppinion. I believe it is a problem in itself when women wear a burka. When I see someone with a net infront of her eyes who is covered from top to toe in a formless black tent, then I know there is a problem, regardless if she chose it herself or not. the mentality is an error. The best way to keep people chained is to make them believe they are guilty, even when they are not. I want you to mark those words. Many women who freely choose the burka or hijab do so volunatarily yes, but with the wrong piety in mind, because they have the wrong religion and world view. this is a tragedy.

… there seems to be an attitude among many western Christians who are so in love with their freedom to not observe this part of religious custom that this freedom to abstain is held in a higher position than the religious custom itself!

Of course we should defend our freedom and celebrate it every day. look at the Middle East… look at the tyrant and the ISM’s that have surpressed people… As for the other part of your argument. Its sound, however any religious person can use it also to lure an other into following rules that are not truly reasonable. As for any religious custom. Test it. Let nothing be so holy to you that you don’t ask behind it for it’s reason and justification.

The Church is not a battleground for feminism or anti-feminism.

What is anti-feminism? Is it male shuvanism? You say the Church is not a battle field… but how can it be that I hear so many american sermons against feminism but none against male shuvanism?

** It is where we come together as one to worship God in accordance with the traditions that have been handed down to us. For some, this includes veiling,… What is the problem with that?**

I see nothing wrong with people following their own conscience according to their communication with God. But I’d like to point you to the fact that this thread started with a video about a girl who is not veiled and is therefore harassed by her whole society. I find it to be a symptom of a sickness when people see this and start to speak of modesty without first clearly condemning the obvious perversion of religion that is seen in the video.

 

[dzheremi]

But brother we must always ask if pious rules are in fact that.
When I wear a scarf in Church I do it in order to show humility to God… because my inner humility is not perceived to be sufficient to me. But if I am asked to cover my hair for men and pressured with religious, social or political reasons, then I certainly know that my freedom is under siege.

This is all good and fine. My only point is to be careful not to be so in love with your own “freedom” that you discard what is good for you just because some people would use your own desire for humility to oppress you. Veiling is still good, in fact, even better in the Christian context because it is not the political weapon that it is in Islamic societies.

You misunderstood. What we discuss here is modesty or lack thereof.
I will try to be precise: I see intention as key and I see both extremes as a kind of mocking of God who created us: if you cover extremely and call this modesty (and thus call other ways immodest) or if you clothe deliberately for the purpose of a sexual response in your neighbour. Both these are perversions.
I am not against nuns. A young woman who is wearing her own clothes and enters the convent, is no less modest than a nun who is wearing the full habit after 2 years. If the nun-attire was worn as as a symbol of modesty to be followed by all, and as a live-lecture, it would be an error. But no nun today wears it to say: See how modest I am and how you are not. I know nuns who are dressed in long veils and nuns who wear civil clothes and work at local hospitals. None is more modest than the other. You understand my point now?

Yes. Thank you.

As do probably every woman on this board. However, imagine that you wear what you wear and all the time you have to hear: men are not modest enough, why don’t you wear this and that, why dont you wear hats, beards, tunics, etc (and yes, there is such religious tyranny of men in some parts of the world too, where piety is an outward thing)…

Again, I am going to have to say that if this is what is normal in religious dress, then I would feel compelled to wear it to be part of my religious community. It is not a coincidence, for instance, that Eastern Orthodox priests wear beards. They did not just all decide one day that beards look good; it is a religious norm for that community, so if I wanted to be accepted as one of that community, I would have to at least try to conform to it. All I am arguing for is that there be some normative standard for all people of the Church, and if that includes veiling for some women who feel so compelled to veil, then so be it. I would not be arguing this, after all, if it were not for the many times when I have been to mass and seen people (both men and women) dressed without concern as to the presence of Christ among them. I do not think this is anything that should keep anybody from attending Mass (better that they be there in their street clothes than skip services to get a suit pressed or something!), but at least preserving some internal sense of what is appropriate to wear to services and what is not is important to me. Christ is in our midst, after all. To me, this goes along with a general attitude of reverence towards Him.

Exactly, so you do state that its a matter of your personal conscience right…?

As I have in every post to date, I hope.

But what do you do if the rules of piety are layed out to you by women who say things you cant see the logic in, and you cant see the reasonableness of their demands on you? Can you imagine a female theological or glergical class who told you what to wear and then gave their own words a divine mandate?

No, I cannot, because I would want something more than a certain group’s opinion. If they could show support for their view in Tradition and scripture, I would listen. Ultimately, I would try to follow any Church directive, rather than any social/women’s group directive.

thats what we see here repeatedly… many have a personal oppinion and then say: this is what God wants.

I am approaching it from a different angle: What I do for God. I might feel differently if I were a woman, and you are right, there is no exact parallel in this aspect for men, but still: I like to see this form of humility in my sisters in Christ. It helps me to consider how I might better my relationship with Gof. I do not see them as oppressed or anything like that, nor do I see them as intrinsically better than women who do not veil.

(continued below)

 

[dzheremi]

** What do you want me to say? Please refer back to my other post, where I said that the problem with the hijab in an Islamic context is not that women wear it, but that they wear it regardless of their personal piety. It would be the same for a man like me wearing it. I would not want to adopt it or anything else like it under false pretenses.**

This is where I difffer from your oppinion. I believe it is a problem in itself when women wear a burka. When I see someone with a net infront of her eyes who is covered from top to toe in a formless black tent, then I know there is a problem, regardless if she chose it herself or not. the mentality is an error.

I absolutely disagree. Believe me, I am not a fan of the burka as a piece of clothing or the religious environment that deems such clothing as necessary, but I think that if a woman truly choses to wear the garment in accordance with the dictates of her own religious conscience, there is no problem with it. The trouble with Islam is that we can never know who is doing that, and who is doing it because of pressure from conservative elements in her society. It is not a free choice, so to speak. But if it were, I don’t see why I should be against it. It is most certainly extreme. It’s farther than I would personally go or am comfortable with, but I would be a pretty big hypocrite to argue for freedom in all cases except those that make me uncomfortable.

The best way to keep people chained is to make them believe they are guilty, even when they are not. I want you to mark those words. Many women who freely choose the burka or hijab do so volunatarily yes, but with the wrong piety in mind, because they have the wrong religion and world view. this is a tragedy.

The discussion that you and are having is not about the correctness of Islam as a religion. You and I both agree on that point, so I’m not sure what you want me to say here. Yes, Islam is the wrong religion, and people’s minds are warped by it. This has nothing to do with the issue of the veil, as women veiled long before Islam. Islam took what was a good thing and made it into a means to oppress people, as it did with everything that it stole from other religions, from literal churches turned into mosques, to the method of prayer, to the dress of worshippers. Islam is absolutely what is wrong with this picture!

As for the other part of your argument. Its sound, however any religious person can use it also to lure an other into following rules that are not truly reasonable. As for any religious custom. Test it. Let nothing be so holy to you that you don’t ask behind it for it’s reason and justification.

Of course, of course. I am not arguing for being sheep. But neither should the Church or any individual within it simply throw out tradition if they personally don’t like any aspect of it. There is always a reason for some stance or practice within the Church, as I am sure you know. I am only arguing that we preserve that which has been acceptable for us for centuries, and not let some new quasi-liberal spirit of the secular age enter into our way of practice (at least not any more than it already has). I guess I am rather conservative in that way, but I think that in this context it is completely prudent and justified to be so. I recognize my free will as given to me by God so that I may elect to follow Him using the gift of reason and conscience that He has bestowed upon me. It is not an “either/or” situation, We are working with the same God-given gifts, you and I. When you question something, you ought not to feel ashamed to be looking for answers. Similarly, I will not be ashamed to worship in the manner of my forefathers (and mothers!) who followed the faith for centuries in Mexico and Southern Europe, where there was perhaps not this cultural impulse to justify everything to oneself. Worship of the Lord is its own justification, provided that it is done in a way that is in keeping with our faith.

What is anti-feminism? Is it male shuvanism? You say the Church is not a battle field… but how can it be that I hear so many american sermons against feminism but none against male shuvanism?

These questions would be better addressed to a priest. I do not control the content of any American sermon that you hear.

I see nothing wrong with people following their own conscience according to their communication with God. But I’d like to point you to the fact that this thread started with a video about a girl who is not veiled and is therefore harassed by her whole society.

Well, her society is wrong. It is not a Christian society. It is not guided by the true God (I thought this was Sam’s point, but maybe I am wrong). You cannot compare what goes on in a Muslim society and use its rules to condemn a behavior (in this case, a way of dress) across the board even for people outside of that society who may observe that same behavior, but for vastly different reasons and under a different array of social pressures and cultural influences.

I find it to be a symptom of a sickness when people see this and start to speak of modesty without first clearly condemning the obvious perversion of religion that is seen in the video.

And I thought that since this is a Christian board all of its Christian members would be more-or-less in agreeement as to the wrongness of harrassing women for not veiling, so I did not give an explicit reaction to the video. But of course, it IS wrong to harrass women/girls for not veiling. It is very, very wrong. Am I still “sick” now?

 

[rtconstant]

No you misunderstand, the shame is a God given gift of the natural law. It is appropriate for sinners. You feel shame because you either feel something wrongly, sinfully seeing someone naked OR, because you are naked you are provoking it. The latter is natural and something to be embraced.

Be ashamed of provoking sin in others by your deeds! That too is sinful! That is the message of God. We cannot be careless of other people.

So God sinned by creating us naked and allowing Adam and Eve to walk around in a state that they should naturally feel bad about? Are you sure thats the direction you want to go with this?

We are not allowed to go around naked, if we can help it. It doesn’t matter that the woman doesn’t -intend- to provoke lust, it only matters as excuse that -she has no choice- but to be naked, for example some dire circumstances.

The existence of that lust is not the woman’s fault though.

I have already given the examples of the saints above, a Christian does not ignore those who bear Christ. I have also shown the words of Cardinals and Popes.

Yes but saints can be wrong. Ancient Saints especially were terrified of anything that could remotely be associated with sin. There are many reasons for that given their world, and at the time very appropriate. We grow in the wisdom in the Church however, and its time we stop focusing on accidents and start looking at the root.

I have also on this thread written about how in Genesis God shows us that we need clothing, because of our sinful nature. Pretending we don’t have it, is a lie, and shamelessness in sin is from Hell, not from God.

Exactly. Believing that we’re not responsible for our thoughts and actions, and blaming our weaknesses on others and their clothes is from Hell not God. God did not show us we need clothes. Unless you accuse Him of sin. He did humor our self induced shame however.

How many times does God reprove Israel as a prostitute in scripture? She who he would have had as His beloved bride, but who turns aside to other suitors (idols of her imagination) from He who can give her all she desires if she but submits to His will.

The people here who blame everything on the man, are repeating what man haters have said for a long time… and stoking conflict between men and women. But there is no conflict in Christian men and women, they both understand that they are different. Men are not the same as women. Women are not the same as men. Men and women behave differently, because God has given them different **virtues **and different weaknesses, and they love each other by -respecting- each other’s weaknesses, and supporting each other so the will not fall.

I’m a man, and I can freely say that most of the problems that exist in the world were generated by men. We have out good points to. But women will answer for far less than men when we face judgement.

Women are not as physically strong as men. So one of the virtues and perfections of men is to protect women and to do hard tasks, they are more capable because of their emotion lives being ordered towards emotionally difficult tasks too. Women, are more beautiful than men, and this is one of their perfections, and they also are better at communicating on the level of emotions, which causes them to bond with and understand very young children who do not yet think rationally better than men. Who can deny this is true? Who would want to if sensible?

Well, men typically try to ignore our emotions. So we are not very good at dealing with emotionally stressful situations. Also, because we’ve been told to hold our emotions we often fall into the trap of not realizing that they have value. Women however, are more mature in this area. Judeo-Christian culture has taught us the value of women which has nurtured an instinct of protectiveness in women. It is trying to nurture feeling of women not being objects, but it has not yet conquered that demon.

 

[rtconstant]

In the Garden of Eden, God reveals to us both the perfections and weaknesses of men and women. He shows Adam as given authority over all creation, and Eve is brought before his authority for judgement. And so Eve herself, cared about her physical appearance because she was being brought to judgement before Adam. Adam loved her, and judged her worthy to be his wife, as he could not otherwise because it was true. She was beautiful inside and out. They married.

Well, Eve completed Adam. Adam couldn’t feel content even in the presence of God. So God complete Adam and gave him purpose with Eve. Eve makes Adam whole. I can’t really say if she was all that concerned about her appearance. Though if her descendants are an indicator it could be a reasonable assumption lol.

But Eve, tempted by Satan wanted to put herself above Adam, she would eat the apple and know more than he. Then she did, she ate it – and she gave it to Adam, who, because he loved Eve more than he loved God, disobeyed God too and ate the apple.

That is a bit of a stretch, and honestly sounds like medieval thinking that blamed Eve for the Fall. Which is false. Adam is responsible for the Fall, not Eve. I don’t know if Adam took the fruit because he loved Eve more than God. Eve was deceived by the Father of Lies, Adam however, willfully chose to not head God’s warning. Further he then started to perceive evil in the good that God created. Like feeling shame at his nakedness. God didn’t give him those feelings, Adam invented them. Adam put himself above God and decided he was the judge of good and evil.

These sins and perfections are repeated unto this day, and until people learn the lessons in them how can they be reconciled to God? They will keep on sinning. Eve will keep trying to destroy Adam’s authority, and part of this is then shown in that she is so emotionally sensitive to his judgement of her appearance, she will in part of throwing off his authority and influence, wear whatever she wants.

As long as men keep blaming women and inanimate objects for their own failings.

Adam will keep preferring Eve to God, and loving her appearance and taking what she offers to him, sinfully, rather than exercising his authority properly in self denial. Instead of insisting on what he must do for God as the hard course, of showing leadership, he gives in.

Oh yeah its true men are very weak.

When men and women understand their proper roles together, only then can they find true happiness. The world and secular society’s vices, which include misogyny and feminism, all teach the original sins of Adam and Eve, again and again, as if they were something new and liberating… But really…

They’re the same old evils as ever, and those who truly liberate are those who bring the message of Christ which includes self denial, and no shame in the traditional and loved roles of men and women where true happiness is found.

Its true that men have objectified their completion (women) and devalued them based on their own perversions. Women today especially do often play into that and devalue themselves by believing that fulfilling a man’s every depravity just for the “honor” of having a man have hurt themselves greatly. Men need to start cherishing their women and not seeing them as objects of lust and then the rest will be moot.

 

[GraceDK]

Well, Eve completed Adam. …

Brother :tiphat:
You made my day a bit brighter with your post of wisdom. Thank you so much for that
But I can’t let Adam take full blame of the fall.
If you take responsibility away from a human being you degrade them, but just in another way. A woman is not a child. Eve sinned, as did Adam, equally.
They should now be fighting against the devil side by side and one, instead of battling each other.
I sometimes wonder why Christians, who Christ has restored into the kingdom-life, still battle and supress one another even sometimes more than our secualar friends.
It was a curse on Eve that she would be dominated by her man, and domination is no good… it only creates resentment and look at the messy situation that still goes on in the world. But Christ came to restore the relationship between man and woman in His Reality.

… again… thanks a whole lot.

 

[GodIsGracious]

I hope some real Catholic men will soon enter this debate and say the truth. If shin is representative to Catholic males then I am going to marry outside the faith. In all my life as a protestant I never heard such shuvanism as on this thread and others here. The more I encounter such oppinions by Catholic men the more I understand how feminism became a movement in the first place. I do not agree with feminism but the views presented here are equally tragic.

I am dating a Byzantine Catholic man. He has no such feelings that Shin has expressed. He respects me for me as an equal partner.

And yes, you are correct in why feminism became a movement. Women got fed up with the restrictive clothing (burning bras!) and didn’t want to feel simply like brood mares.

But no, not all Catholic men feel this way. And if a Catholic man like this does find a Catholic woman who agrees to being so restrictive and cut off as some sort of inanimate object, I would feel sorry for her and her self esteem. She does not have Christ in her life.

 

[Booklover]

Dear friends…
In the midst of brainwashed masses, single individuals stand out as courageous
models of freedom. I admire this Yemenite girl SO much.

I am sure you will all enjoy this 9 minute vid :dancing:
Respect! Is what I feel for her…

youtube.com/watch?v=PAkPFZQA6EM&feature=related

Yes, that’s one plucky kid!

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

I feel attached to the Haredi Jewish communities and feel happy for them…I hope they grow in size and become an example to other communities…

I find similar shared values with them…in terms of traditions and values …

But the way Christian here admiring a Muslim girl in taking off the scarf and becoming a kind of libertine in rejecting the moral standards of her community…makes me suspicious of Christianity.

On the other hand , they call the other Muslim women in the video who wear a head scarf BRAINWASHED

What hypocrites, you Muslims are! The girl is dressed modestly, she’s just not wearing a scarf, and you call her a “libertine”.

Vickie

 

[dolphinlove]

What hypocrites, you Muslims are! The girl is dressed modestly, she’s just not wearing a scarf, and you call her a “libertine”.

Vickie

too funny hey, but what else would you expect from a mus!

 

[GraceDK]

too funny hey, but what else would you expect from a mus!

We could expect much more from a “mus”… because a muslim is a person with a mind and conscience. that is why we speak to them on these boards, because we believe that people can reflect and change and cut off irrational mindsets when they have come to see these were not worthy of them.

I have a Muslim friend who is very kind and democratic. She does not wear a veil. In fact when she met her husband she did wear a veil but he said to her he would not marry her unless she took it off - it seems he saw it as the fundamentalistic symbol that it is. She didn’t mind that and she took it off… There are many muslims who are not stupid or fanatic… like the ones from Bosnia Herzegovina. They have a more symbolistic approach to religion apparently.

 

[Hadi]

.

*it’s now clear on which side you are in ,you identify yourself with a secular Jew, an unscarfed Muslim woman , a lesbian liberal Muslim woman…
and you dislike a scarfed muslim woman and a religious Jew

*and how insulting to call me “mus”…very kind of you and dolphinlove

• I’m surprised that no Catholic here stood in defense to Shin ,really shame
• After Adam and Eve ate the fruit, ***both ***were ashamed of their visible nakedness in the presence of God…they ***both ***covered themselves

this should be our model…as God is watching us ,we should be ashamed of nakedness and we should be covered…the Quran tells both man and woman to cover and lower their gaze

 

[GodIsGracious]

this should be our model…as God is watching us ,we should be ashamed of nakedness and we should be covered…the Quran tells both man and woman to cover and lower their gaze

Then why don’t muslim men wear burqas or hijabs too?