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MH84
Guest
It seems that St. Paul was an influencial pioneer in rendering the Mosaic Law not necessary or important for Christians. However, did Jesus ever mention this in the Gospels?
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Todd_Easton
Guest
In some things, such as anger, lust, divorce and remarriage, and retaliation, Jesus went beyond the requirements of the Mosaic Law (Matthew 5:21-48). However, in other things, such as food restrictions (Mark 7:14-22), the Sabbath rest (Matthew 12:1-8), and temple worship (John 4:21-23), Jesus does seem to relax or break with the Mosaic Law.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law. The Law couldn’t be fulfilled until the last of the Covenant Curses were dished out, and that was Israel’s Death. See Deuteronomy 28. Jesus, as well as taking on our sins (which had little or nothing to do with the Mosaic Covenant IMO), also took on the curse of death so that Israel didn’t have to die - Israel being all of the people of the Covenant. If you looked at the Covenant curses, Israel had already suffered through all the diseases, the famines, then the exiles. The only thing left was death.
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awalt
Guest
For me it’s hard to tell. Jesus certainly challenged the Pharisees obsession with rules and laws many times.
But check out Acts 10, God tells Peter not to consider any food profane.
Acts 10-11 are clear as well that the Holy Spirit directed the Apostles to evangelize and convert the Gentiles as well.
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Hellisreal
Guest
The law of Christ (Gal 6:2, 5)
then read Mat 5:17 - 19
I wish I had more time for this thread.
then read Mat 5:17 - 19
I wish I had more time for this thread.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
No, the problem was people FAILED to see what the Law was trying to teach…LOVE (rather than legalism).
9The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. 11And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature. -Rom 13
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MH84
Guest
Are you disagreeing with what St. Paul is saying?The law of Christ (Gal 6:2, 5)
then read Mat 5:17 - 19
I wish I had more time for this thread.
M
MH84
Guest
Ver. 2. One another’s burdens. This is not contrary to what is added ver. 5, that every one shall bear his own burden, because in the first place the sense is, that we must bear patiently with one another’s faults and imperfections; in the second, that every one must answer for himself at God’s tribunal. (Witham) — Every one has his failings and weaknesses, and stands in need of indulgence from his brethren; he must, therefore, grant to them what he so much desires to receive from them. (Calmet)
Do you agree witht the Haydock commentary? From a immediate point of view according to the RSV that St. Paul is saying that we should bear one another’s burdens (Gal 6:2) and in Gal 6:5 that each man is required to do this (help each other)? Am I wrong? Please explain.
Do you agree witht the Haydock commentary? From a immediate point of view according to the RSV that St. Paul is saying that we should bear one another’s burdens (Gal 6:2) and in Gal 6:5 that each man is required to do this (help each other)? Am I wrong? Please explain.
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rwoehmke
Guest
Were any of the Jews saved by the Law? Jesus’ death on the cross was required before even the Just could enter heaven. Paul recognized this and taught that Salvation is only through Jesus Christ. The Law was not able to save and so all was abrogated or fulfilled and we were left with only those parts of the Mosaic Law with their roots in Natural Law, which includes the ten commandments.
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TOME
Guest
I am going to respond to this question using the works of our Holy Father especially, “What it Means to be a Christian” along with a few of my own thoughts. I hope that my thoughts reflect what the Pope meant to say.
In several works of our Holy Father that I have read he makes a point I think is very important, namely, we cannot fully understand the New Testament without have a knowledge of the Old Testament. The Old points to the New and both find their fulfilment in Christ Jesus. In any discussion about the Mosaic Law, I think it is important to remember what was at the heart of “The Law” - the Love of God as expressed in the Sinai Covenant. Israel saw that it could filfill the obligations of the covenant by keeping “The Law”. The book of Leviticus states this clearly and Christ quoted Leviticus when he was ask by a young man what he must do to be saved. But in its human expression the Mosaic Law was incomplete and how it was being lived was profoundly flawed. I believed this lead to the strong criticism Jesus directed towards the religious leaders of his time and is reflected in the writings of St. Paul and his criticism and apparent rejection of the Mosaic Law.
Our Holy Father also points out, or re-states clearly, that the Old Testament (Covenant) points to the New and that we are a New Covenant people. This covenant was established by Christ at the Last Supper with the institution of the Eucharist and sealed in the blood of his paschal sacrifice. Through baptism, we enter into this new covenant and through the Eucharist we become one with the Body of Christ and and participate fully with the Body of Christ - the Church. For me, this change everything and we (the Church) are no longer an Old Covenant people and are no longer bond by observance of its “Law”.
God deals with us in the reality of our normal daily life and as I study the Acts of the Apostles and the letters of St Paul, I become more convinced that we find God, through His Holy Spirit, guiding the Church through a deeper understanding of her nature and mission of what it means to be a New Covenant people. But this understanding didn’t just happen but developed with time, experience, debate and most importantly through prayer. We can read about this struggle in Acts and the events leading up to the Council of Jerusalem, the Council itself and how the decisions of the Council was lived out in the early Church. In Paul’s letter we can read how the Church was moving beyond its understanding as being just the perfection of the Old Covenant and whose mission was primarily to God’s chosen people, the Jews and thus still under the obligation to live and perfect the Mosaic Law, to a broader understanding of what it meant to be a New Covenant people.
However, this did not just happen and all all were under the guidance of the Holy Spirit there were serious tensions, debates and bitter disagreements in this process. Too often this has been over simplified as a struggle of Paul against the rest of the Church or Paul against James (sometimes Peter) and the Church of Jerusalem.
In several works of our Holy Father that I have read he makes a point I think is very important, namely, we cannot fully understand the New Testament without have a knowledge of the Old Testament. The Old points to the New and both find their fulfilment in Christ Jesus. In any discussion about the Mosaic Law, I think it is important to remember what was at the heart of “The Law” - the Love of God as expressed in the Sinai Covenant. Israel saw that it could filfill the obligations of the covenant by keeping “The Law”. The book of Leviticus states this clearly and Christ quoted Leviticus when he was ask by a young man what he must do to be saved. But in its human expression the Mosaic Law was incomplete and how it was being lived was profoundly flawed. I believed this lead to the strong criticism Jesus directed towards the religious leaders of his time and is reflected in the writings of St. Paul and his criticism and apparent rejection of the Mosaic Law.
Our Holy Father also points out, or re-states clearly, that the Old Testament (Covenant) points to the New and that we are a New Covenant people. This covenant was established by Christ at the Last Supper with the institution of the Eucharist and sealed in the blood of his paschal sacrifice. Through baptism, we enter into this new covenant and through the Eucharist we become one with the Body of Christ and and participate fully with the Body of Christ - the Church. For me, this change everything and we (the Church) are no longer an Old Covenant people and are no longer bond by observance of its “Law”.
God deals with us in the reality of our normal daily life and as I study the Acts of the Apostles and the letters of St Paul, I become more convinced that we find God, through His Holy Spirit, guiding the Church through a deeper understanding of her nature and mission of what it means to be a New Covenant people. But this understanding didn’t just happen but developed with time, experience, debate and most importantly through prayer. We can read about this struggle in Acts and the events leading up to the Council of Jerusalem, the Council itself and how the decisions of the Council was lived out in the early Church. In Paul’s letter we can read how the Church was moving beyond its understanding as being just the perfection of the Old Covenant and whose mission was primarily to God’s chosen people, the Jews and thus still under the obligation to live and perfect the Mosaic Law, to a broader understanding of what it meant to be a New Covenant people.
However, this did not just happen and all all were under the guidance of the Holy Spirit there were serious tensions, debates and bitter disagreements in this process. Too often this has been over simplified as a struggle of Paul against the rest of the Church or Paul against James (sometimes Peter) and the Church of Jerusalem.
T
TOME
Guest
I am going to respond to this question using the works of our Holy Father especially, “What it Means to be a Christian” along with a few of my own thoughts. I hope that my thoughts reflect what the Pope meant to say.
In several works of our Holy Father that I have read he makes a point I think is very important, namely, we cannot fully understand the New Testament without have a knowledge of the Old Testament. The Old points to the New and both find their fulfilment in Christ Jesus. In any discussion about the Mosaic Law, I think it is important to remember what was at the heart of “The Law” - the Love of God as expressed in the Sinai Covenant. Israel saw that it could filfill the obligations of the covenant by keeping “The Law”. The book of Leviticus states this clearly and Christ quoted Leviticus when he was ask by a young man what he must do to be saved. But in its human expression the Mosaic Law was incomplete and how it was being lived was profoundly flawed. I believed this lead to the strong criticism Jesus directed towards the religious leaders of his time and is reflected in the writings of St. Paul and his criticism and apparent rejection of the Mosaic Law.
Our Holy Father also points out, or re-states clearly, that the Old Testament (Covenant) points to the New and that we are a New Covenant people. This covenant was established by Christ at the Last Supper with the institution of the Eucharist and sealed in the blood of his paschal sacrifice. Through baptism, we enter into this new covenant and through the Eucharist we become one with the Body of Christ and and participate fully with the Body of Christ - the Church. For me, this change everything and we (the Church) are no longer an Old Covenant people and are no longer bond by observance of its “Law”.
God deals with us in the reality of our normal daily life and as I study the Acts of the Apostles and the letters of St Paul, I become more convinced that we find God, through His Holy Spirit, guiding the Church through a deeper understanding of her nature and mission of what it means to be a New Covenant people. But this understanding didn’t just happen but developed with time, experience, debate and most importantly through prayer. We can read about this struggle in Acts and the events leading up to the Council of Jerusalem, the Council itself and how the decisions of the Council was lived out in the early Church. In Paul’s letter we can read how the Church was moving beyond its understanding as being just the perfection of the Old Covenant and whose mission was primarily to God’s chosen people, the Jews and thus still under the obligation to live and perfect the Mosaic Law, to a broader understanding of what it meant to be a New Covenant people.
However, this did not just happen and all all were under the guidance of the Holy Spirit there were serious tensions, debates and bitter disagreements in this process. Too often this has been over simplified as a struggle of Paul against the rest of the Church or Paul against James (sometimes Peter) and the Church of Jerusalem - those who wanted to keep the Law.
In several works of our Holy Father that I have read he makes a point I think is very important, namely, we cannot fully understand the New Testament without have a knowledge of the Old Testament. The Old points to the New and both find their fulfilment in Christ Jesus. In any discussion about the Mosaic Law, I think it is important to remember what was at the heart of “The Law” - the Love of God as expressed in the Sinai Covenant. Israel saw that it could filfill the obligations of the covenant by keeping “The Law”. The book of Leviticus states this clearly and Christ quoted Leviticus when he was ask by a young man what he must do to be saved. But in its human expression the Mosaic Law was incomplete and how it was being lived was profoundly flawed. I believed this lead to the strong criticism Jesus directed towards the religious leaders of his time and is reflected in the writings of St. Paul and his criticism and apparent rejection of the Mosaic Law.
Our Holy Father also points out, or re-states clearly, that the Old Testament (Covenant) points to the New and that we are a New Covenant people. This covenant was established by Christ at the Last Supper with the institution of the Eucharist and sealed in the blood of his paschal sacrifice. Through baptism, we enter into this new covenant and through the Eucharist we become one with the Body of Christ and and participate fully with the Body of Christ - the Church. For me, this change everything and we (the Church) are no longer an Old Covenant people and are no longer bond by observance of its “Law”.
God deals with us in the reality of our normal daily life and as I study the Acts of the Apostles and the letters of St Paul, I become more convinced that we find God, through His Holy Spirit, guiding the Church through a deeper understanding of her nature and mission of what it means to be a New Covenant people. But this understanding didn’t just happen but developed with time, experience, debate and most importantly through prayer. We can read about this struggle in Acts and the events leading up to the Council of Jerusalem, the Council itself and how the decisions of the Council was lived out in the early Church. In Paul’s letter we can read how the Church was moving beyond its understanding as being just the perfection of the Old Covenant and whose mission was primarily to God’s chosen people, the Jews and thus still under the obligation to live and perfect the Mosaic Law, to a broader understanding of what it meant to be a New Covenant people.
However, this did not just happen and all all were under the guidance of the Holy Spirit there were serious tensions, debates and bitter disagreements in this process. Too often this has been over simplified as a struggle of Paul against the rest of the Church or Paul against James (sometimes Peter) and the Church of Jerusalem - those who wanted to keep the Law.
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