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Trying2overcome
Guest
I don’t know much about the breviary so I Was wondering if it was prayed latin before? And also, is it still prayed in latin?
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Confiteor_Deo
Guest
Yes, it was and still is prayed in Latin. A priest at my parish can be heard saying the Divine Office in Latin while processing to the sacristy after Mass and in the confessional as he waits for penitents. If it was prayed completely in Latin by all religious, I do not know. It was probably more likely to hear it in Latin before the Second Vatican Council than it is now since few priests know Latin anymore.
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Trying2overcome
Guest
So is the liturgy of hours, the post Vatican 2 Breviary, said in the vernacular?
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Confiteor_Deo
Guest
I think that in most cases, it is. It can be said in Latin, though, and I am sure many people do. It is just that I doubt it is common that it is said in Latin since most priests aren’t taught Latin anymore.
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ProVobis
Guest
I believe there is that option.
I seem to remember a new English translation is coming out, but I could be wrong.
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Elizium23
Guest
Yes, but from what I understand, the Latin volumes are extremely rare and hard to find. There seems to be a four-volume set on sale at Amazon for $809.60.
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Neofight
Guest
I think you are quite wrong. Latin is taught to every seminarian I know, past and present.
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Elizium23
Guest
Ha! If you were correct, then it wouldn’t be a problem to teach the Extraordinary Form to every priest alive. Yet it is a problem, and ignorance of Latin is the prime culprit.
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Confiteor_Deo
Guest
It may be taught, but I highly doubt they are well versed in it unless they come from the Our Lady of Guadalupe Seminary of the FSSP. At least not well versed enough to understand the prayers of the Church or the Vulgate.
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Neofight
Guest
Perhaps.
But, Its not a problem to teach anyone the EF. “knowing” Latin is not required to celebrate or participate in the EF, just rote memorization. I know of very few who frequent the EF who can converse in Latin, classical or ecclesiastical.
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Neofight
Guest
I know of few who are “well versed”, even frequent celebrants and participants in the EF…they have the mass memorized, but know as you say, are hardly “well versed”.
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Confiteor_Deo
Guest
The priest has to understand the propers which come straight from the Bible and the Church. These change daily. Also, I am not speaking at all about the laity. I myself hear the Traditional Latin Mass weekly and it would be absurd to believe one can learn Latin just by hearing Mass. The priests that come to our church understand the Latin enough to read the rubrics for the Mass in Latin and to translate them for us to understand. Our priest did this when he wanted to ensure the faithful that he was obeying the rubrics by allowing an altar boy to chant the Epistle at High Mass.
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Inquiringperson
Guest
My brother is a seminarian. He was taught Latin. I’ll have to check from him if Latin is required. However, I do know that the seminarians (minus those in seminaries like Our Lady of Guadalupe which are dedicated to the EF) are formed to be priests that celebrate the OF. However, my brother’s seminary does allow the option for seminarians to learn the EF.
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
Yes, as others have said, the divine office was typically prayed in Latin before Vatican II. Preparing for priesthood or religious life included formation for being able to pray the office. There were, however, what were called “Little Offices” which were used by some Religious, especially those who were not choir monks/cloistered nuns or for certain members of active congregations of men and women religious; these alternatives were not in Latin.
The liturgy of the hours today may absolutely be prayed in Latin; the majority certainly pray it in a vernacular language. The Benedictines of the Solesmes congregation, among others, pray the liturgy in Latin but they use the monastic breviary as opposed to the standard four volume set of the Roman Rite, which is referred to elsewhere in this post.
If we are praying the liturgy of the hours together, we very well may do it in a language, either Latin or a vernacular, that we would not choose for individual recitation.
We have the option of always praying parts of it in Latin from memory, of course…the introductions, the conclusions, the Benedictus, the Magnificat, and the Nunc Dimittis which are respectively the Gospel Canticles for Morning Prayer, Evening Prayer and Night Prayer (or, as they could be termed, the Canticles of Zechariah, Mary and Simeon as contained at the beginning of the Gospel of Luke) along with the hymns, such as the Salve Regina, and the invariable prayers, such as the Our Father or the penitential rite at Night Prayer.
Yes, there is a new English translation of the Liturgy of the Hours that is in process.
The four volume Latin set can be purchased in Rome. A more practical solution, however, is to use iBreviary.org, placing the setting on either “Latino” for the contemporary liturgy of the hours or “Vetus ordo” for the preconciliar breviary and then selecting the section of the liturgy of the hours one is seeking to pray.
As to the statements about our knowledge of Latin…it is a relative question. Some men have a greater aptitude to study and excel in languages than others. Yet others struggle or remain less comfortable or less confident. Any answer at either extreme would not be correct – neither that all are conversant in Latin or that most priests do not know Latin.
There is an established minimum with which every seminary should be in compliance. There were times and places, unfortunately, where this was not always achieved.
I have known priests whose knowledge of Latin was challenged by relatively simple prayers (but this was more from years ago than today, I find) while others can translate even classical ancient inscriptions with facility. Also some seminarians choose to study the language more than others. There is an element of personal choice beyond the proficiency required.
It is certainly not correct to say that the only priests or seminarians who know Latin are those who study at the FSSP seminaries, although they should certainly have a splendid knowledge of Latin by the end of their studies.
Conversely, those of us who studied in Rome were assuredly expected to attain a fair competence in the language because of the nature of our studies…after all, we were reading primary source documents in Latin, for example, as well as discussing texts that were in Latin in the classroom.
I have offered Mass in both the Ordinary Form in Latin as well as the Extraordinary Form, obviously in Latin, and I am quite at ease with both, though I have a decided preference for the Ordinary Form. Many of our incidental prayers in Rome, such as the Angelus, were also in Latin and we would regularly pray together in gatherings in Latin, since that was our common language in spite of being from so many different countries of origin – all that to say it was the culture in Rome to use Latin and our ability to do so was simply normal, routine and expected. At times, even, we would have to converse in Latin with those visiting Rome, especially if we had no other language in common.
Finally, regarding the comment “…it wouldn’t be a problem to teach the Extraordinary Form to every priest alive. Yet it is a problem, and ignorance of Latin is the prime culprit”, I am afraid I cannot concur with this statement.
On the one hand, I have known priests who offered that Mass even for years before the council and were quite capable of doing it from the point of view of mastery of Latin…but they chose/choose not to. I know priests ordained after the council who studied Latin at a level equal to my own and who are capable of conversing in the language but also choose not to offer Mass in the Extraordinary Form.
On the other hand, there are priests who desire to celebrate Mass in Latin and, if they have a deficiency in knowledge of Latin, that can certainly be remedied. It does not require a conversational knowledge of the language either to pray the liturgy of the hours or the Mass and facility grows as the texts become familiar…but each man has a different threshold of comfort when it comes to functioning in another language, whatever that language might be.
More than just the language, the priest would need a desire to offer Mass in the Vetus ordo. I know newly ordained priests who offer Masses in Latin, in both forms, when they are just out of seminary (which are not FSSP) and, at the very beginning of their priesthood, they do so with both good pronunciation and evident understanding of what they are saying.
The liturgy of the hours today may absolutely be prayed in Latin; the majority certainly pray it in a vernacular language. The Benedictines of the Solesmes congregation, among others, pray the liturgy in Latin but they use the monastic breviary as opposed to the standard four volume set of the Roman Rite, which is referred to elsewhere in this post.
If we are praying the liturgy of the hours together, we very well may do it in a language, either Latin or a vernacular, that we would not choose for individual recitation.
We have the option of always praying parts of it in Latin from memory, of course…the introductions, the conclusions, the Benedictus, the Magnificat, and the Nunc Dimittis which are respectively the Gospel Canticles for Morning Prayer, Evening Prayer and Night Prayer (or, as they could be termed, the Canticles of Zechariah, Mary and Simeon as contained at the beginning of the Gospel of Luke) along with the hymns, such as the Salve Regina, and the invariable prayers, such as the Our Father or the penitential rite at Night Prayer.
Yes, there is a new English translation of the Liturgy of the Hours that is in process.
The four volume Latin set can be purchased in Rome. A more practical solution, however, is to use iBreviary.org, placing the setting on either “Latino” for the contemporary liturgy of the hours or “Vetus ordo” for the preconciliar breviary and then selecting the section of the liturgy of the hours one is seeking to pray.
As to the statements about our knowledge of Latin…it is a relative question. Some men have a greater aptitude to study and excel in languages than others. Yet others struggle or remain less comfortable or less confident. Any answer at either extreme would not be correct – neither that all are conversant in Latin or that most priests do not know Latin.
There is an established minimum with which every seminary should be in compliance. There were times and places, unfortunately, where this was not always achieved.
I have known priests whose knowledge of Latin was challenged by relatively simple prayers (but this was more from years ago than today, I find) while others can translate even classical ancient inscriptions with facility. Also some seminarians choose to study the language more than others. There is an element of personal choice beyond the proficiency required.
It is certainly not correct to say that the only priests or seminarians who know Latin are those who study at the FSSP seminaries, although they should certainly have a splendid knowledge of Latin by the end of their studies.
Conversely, those of us who studied in Rome were assuredly expected to attain a fair competence in the language because of the nature of our studies…after all, we were reading primary source documents in Latin, for example, as well as discussing texts that were in Latin in the classroom.
I have offered Mass in both the Ordinary Form in Latin as well as the Extraordinary Form, obviously in Latin, and I am quite at ease with both, though I have a decided preference for the Ordinary Form. Many of our incidental prayers in Rome, such as the Angelus, were also in Latin and we would regularly pray together in gatherings in Latin, since that was our common language in spite of being from so many different countries of origin – all that to say it was the culture in Rome to use Latin and our ability to do so was simply normal, routine and expected. At times, even, we would have to converse in Latin with those visiting Rome, especially if we had no other language in common.
Finally, regarding the comment “…it wouldn’t be a problem to teach the Extraordinary Form to every priest alive. Yet it is a problem, and ignorance of Latin is the prime culprit”, I am afraid I cannot concur with this statement.
On the one hand, I have known priests who offered that Mass even for years before the council and were quite capable of doing it from the point of view of mastery of Latin…but they chose/choose not to. I know priests ordained after the council who studied Latin at a level equal to my own and who are capable of conversing in the language but also choose not to offer Mass in the Extraordinary Form.
On the other hand, there are priests who desire to celebrate Mass in Latin and, if they have a deficiency in knowledge of Latin, that can certainly be remedied. It does not require a conversational knowledge of the language either to pray the liturgy of the hours or the Mass and facility grows as the texts become familiar…but each man has a different threshold of comfort when it comes to functioning in another language, whatever that language might be.
More than just the language, the priest would need a desire to offer Mass in the Vetus ordo. I know newly ordained priests who offer Masses in Latin, in both forms, when they are just out of seminary (which are not FSSP) and, at the very beginning of their priesthood, they do so with both good pronunciation and evident understanding of what they are saying.
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OraLabora
Guest
Before Vatican II it was prayed in Latin only. The post V II Liturgy of the Hours may be prayed in Latin or the vernacular translation(s) approved by your local conference of bishops; there are two approved translations for Canada, one English and one French.
The abbey I’m associated with, of the Solesmes Congregation, chants Lauds and Vespers in Latin Gregorian chant daily.
I myself chant the LOTH in Latin Gregorian chant daily, except when I travel; then I simply recite it in French to avoid lugging around my library of chant books
For those inclined to do so, an excellent if pricey resource is “Les Heures Gregoriennes”, a Latin/French antiphonary for all the daytime Offices (i.e.does not include Office of Readings). It is published by the Communauté Saint Martin in France.
The abbey I’m associated with, of the Solesmes Congregation, chants Lauds and Vespers in Latin Gregorian chant daily.
I myself chant the LOTH in Latin Gregorian chant daily, except when I travel; then I simply recite it in French to avoid lugging around my library of chant books
For those inclined to do so, an excellent if pricey resource is “Les Heures Gregoriennes”, a Latin/French antiphonary for all the daytime Offices (i.e.does not include Office of Readings). It is published by the Communauté Saint Martin in France.
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otjm
Guest
Well said.
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Andreas_Hofer
Guest
For the curious, the Council Fathers fully intended for clerics to continue praying the Office in Latin, though they granted exception for those who simply couldn’t hack the language requirement. Religious got broader possibility to use the vernacular (though they still needed permission, it wasn’t automatic). I don’t believe the state of affairs mandated by the assembled bishops lasted more than a few years.
SC 101. 1. In accordance with the centuries-old tradition of the Latin rite, the Latin language is to be retained by clerics in the divine office. But in individual cases the ordinary has the power of granting the use of a vernacular translation to those clerics for whom the use of Latin constitutes a grave obstacle to their praying the office properly. The vernacular version, however, must be one that is drawn up according to the provision of Art. 36.
SC 101. 1. In accordance with the centuries-old tradition of the Latin rite, the Latin language is to be retained by clerics in the divine office. But in individual cases the ordinary has the power of granting the use of a vernacular translation to those clerics for whom the use of Latin constitutes a grave obstacle to their praying the office properly. The vernacular version, however, must be one that is drawn up according to the provision of Art. 36.
- The competent superior has the power to grant the use of the vernacular in the celebration of the divine office, even in choir, to nuns and to members of institutes dedicated to acquiring perfection, both men who are not clerics and women. The version, however, must be one that is approved.
- Any cleric bound to the divine office fulfills his obligation if he prays the office in the vernacular together with a group of the faithful or with those mentioned in 52 above provided that the text of the translation is approved.
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ProVobis
Guest
From a philosophical standpoint, sInce translations are at best imperfect, how is acquiring perfection through the vernacular possible? Not to mention requiring less effort. Just sayin.
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OraLabora
Guest
Acquiring perfection, in the monastic sense, has nothing to do with language of the liturgy or translation.
It is the process of inner conversion that configures one’s life to Christ to attain sainthood.
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AttendeDomine
Guest
Amen.
I genuinely love Latin, but I fail to see how attributing enormous power to that language to convert is anything other than mere superstition.
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