The Brothers and Sisters of Jesus

[Deacon110]

Old Scholar;3334463:

Gabriel of 12;3334068:

Kinda hard to have children when you’re dead! And why do you call this a “parallel” text?The context, time and place is entirely different.

**That is my point, she did not have children until her death. The parallel is the word used Until in Matthew 1:25.
This is not saying Michal did not have children until (but she had kids after her death) her death.
The parallel in Matthew’s gospel, is Mary did not have sexual relations up to the birth of Jesus. Stop thats it, dont add Mary is going to have sex with Joseph, that is not stated here. Let scripture remain silent, dont add your own intentions of they may or should of done. Scripture does not say that. You cannot use this scripture to defend your opinion of Mary having sex with Joseph, scripture does not say that here, your going to need to try somewhere else. Dont you think, in 2000 years, a theologian or scholar would have figured this argument of yours out and raised it, but they dont, because they understand what the word Until is stating. To move on to the word know, you got have the scholary understanding of the word until being used in this text.

May the peace of the Lord, enlighten your understanding, and give you open heart to recieve knowledge of him.**

Gabriel you need to learn how to interpret scripture. No offense but your deduction on 2 Samuel 6 is flat out wrong. Michal never had children so saying she didn’t have any until death means just that. She didn’t have any during her entire lifetime which is true. She never did.

Let me use this example that I placed in another post:

I say to you “I’m fasting **until **12pm”. What does that mean to you? Am I going to eat prior to 12pm? NO I’m fasting during this time. How about after 12PM? Will I eat then? YES. I’m going to eat after 12PM. Matter of fact my statement is basically saying: I’m not eating until after 12PM. Up until 12pm I’m fasting.

Now let’s look at it another way:

I say to you “I’m fasting until the day I die”. What does that mean to you? That I’m going to eat after I die?? Of course not. It means I’m not going to eat while I’m alive.

Same thing with “Jesus will be with us until the end of the world”. This doesn’t mean he stops after that. It’s figurative for saying he will always be with us.

Likewise in Matthew. “Joseph did not know Mary until after Jesus was born”. This means they weren’t having sex while Mary was pregnant, but were waiting UNTIL Jesus was born. Very simple.

PEACE

 

[Deacon110]

I am sure that Pax hit on this point, but I might have missed it. Remember when the brothers of Jesus were telling him to leave the area? John 7:3-5. Now, we are not living in that era or culture, so this does not seem strange to us. However, we must see it as it was.

Let us start with the assumption that Joseph was dead. Now, if Jesus was the first born, then he was head of the household. If he had other siblings, as younger children, they would not have questioned his choices. It was not done or accepted. Sorry. Now, if he had OLDER siblings, they could have told him what to do with no issues. Now, it is possible that Jesus, like Esau, sold or denied his birthright, but that does not seem likely, as his MOther stayed with him and followed his instructions to live on with John. No, he could not have had younger siblings for that verse to work. In other words, the younger children of Mary and Joseph would not have to believe in Jesus to follow the laws and norms of the culture.

this website has good information.

I don’t think this is relevant here. You’re implying that Jesus had to be the younger for HIS brothers to say this to HIM. Why? They weren’t ordering HIM. The Bible clarifies this for us by saying that they weren’t believers. So we can assume maybe they meant it sarcastically and not literally. Almost like saying we don’t believe you here so go show someone else.

 

[teadough]

Matthew 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25) And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

The passage make no sense in regards to how someone would tell another about a child being born. You would not give the details of what leads up to an important event then in the middle of your explanation mention the fact that you had relations with your wife sometime after she had a child and then follow that up with “and we named him Jesus”.

It would be like me telling my story about me and my wifes little girl like this: “Hey, guess what? My wife and I got married and then we had our first baby. After our child was born we had sexual relations. Oh,by the way,we named our child Autumn”

 

[Deacon110]

Old Scholar;3334463:

Acts 2:34-35:

For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool."’

---

Does this mean that he will no longer sit at the Father’s right hand AFTER he makes his enemies his “footstool”??
Response, please . . .

---

So your question is what happens after GOD humbles all of Jesus enemies? Will he still sit at the right hand of GOD? Unfortunately we don’t know GOD’s complete plan after this happens.

The problem is the argument constantly is getting made for the interpretation of the word until. We want to try to apply a universal interpretation to every situation and when you think you find an exception you latch onto it to try and refute the others. Please consider the example I gave to Gabriel using the word until in 2 different scenarios.

I say to you “I’m fasting until 12pm”. What does that mean to you? Am I going to eat prior to 12pm? NO I’m fasting during this time. How about after 12PM? Will I eat then? YES. I’m going to eat after 12PM. Matter of fact my statement is basically saying: I’m not eating until after 12PM. Up until 12pm I’m fasting.

Now let’s look at it another way:

I say to you “I’m fasting until the day I die”. What does that mean to you? That I’m going to eat after I die?? Of course not. It means I’m not going to eat while I’m alive.

Same thing with “Jesus will be with us until the end of the world”. This doesn’t mean he stops after that. It’s figurative for saying he will always be with us.

Likewise in Matthew. “Joseph did not know Mary until after Jesus was born”. This means they weren’t having sex while Mary was pregnant, but were waiting UNTIL Jesus was born. Very simple.

PEACE

 

[teadough]

Deacon110, what does “Catholic/Non-denominational” mean ?

 

[Deacon110]

Matthew 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25) And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

The passage make no sense in regards to how someone would tell another about a child being born. You would not give the details of what leads up to an important event then in the middle of your explanation mention the fact that you had relations with your wife sometime after she had a child and then follow that up with “and we named him Jesus”.

It would be like me telling my story about me and my wifes little girl like this: “Hey, guess what? My wife and I got married and then we had our first baby. After our child was born we had sexual relations. Oh,by the way,we named our child Autumn”

Unfortunately your example doesn’t apply here though. Autumn is the child of you and your wife. Your wife got pregnant from you. You had sex getting her pregnant. And actually your statement isn’t that out of order. You’re saying we had sex again, but guess what we named our first Autumn. So although it is kind of illogical to state it this way, it’s not too terribly wrong.

But, Mary wasn’t pregnant by Joseph so they hadn’t had sex yet. It’s then very logical to say it this way in this order. Like saying “we didn’t consumated the marriage until after the baby was born. By the way we named HIM Jesus.”

So in your case if Autumn came from the Holy Spirit, and you and your wife had not had sex yet, you could say: "We got married but didn’t consumate the marriage until after a baby girl was born. And we named her Autumn. Makes perfect sense that way. Nice try though:wink:

PEACE

 

[Deacon110]

Deacon110, what does “Catholic/Non-denominational” mean ?

Ohh good question I grew up Roman Catholic in Baltimore, MD. But over the previous year and a half I’ve been attending non-denominational services.

 

[teadough]

Unfortunately your example doesn’t apply here though. Autumn is the child of you and your wife. Your wife got pregnant from you. You had sex getting her pregnant. And actually your statement isn’t that out of order. You’re saying we had sex again, but guess what we named our first Autumn. So although it is kind of illogical to state it this way, it’s not too terribly wrong.

But, Mary wasn’t pregnant by Joseph so they hadn’t had sex yet. It’s then very logical to say it this way in this order. Like saying “we didn’t consumated the marriage until after the baby was born. By the way we named HIM Jesus.”

So in your case if Autumn came from the Holy Spirit, and you and your wife had not had sex yet, you could say: "We got married but didn’t consumate the marriage until after a baby girl was born. And we named her Autumn. Makes perfect sense that way. Nice try though:wink:

PEACE

you have completely re-worded what I said to fit your explanation. And you are wrong in saying what I said is not “completely” out of order.Thanks for the History lesson I had no idea that Jesus was concieved by the Holy Spirit

 

[teadough]

Ohh good question I grew up Roman Catholic in Baltimore, MD. But over the previous year and a half I’ve been attending non-denominational services.

Why don’t you just say you are a protestant? Their are many on this forum

 

[Deacon110]

you have completely re-worded what I said to fit your explanation. And you are wrong in saying what I said is not “completely” out of order.Thanks for the History lesson I had no idea that Jesus was concieved by the Holy Spirit

I didn’t re-word it to fit. I merely commented that Autumn came from you having sex with your wife. Jesus did not as you know.

So I’ll re-phrase it to make more sense. You’re engaged to your wife and never had sex with her. One day she shows up pregnant to which you want to break off the engagament. An Angel says no don’t worry this child is from the Holy Spirit. You decide to move forward with the marriage but can’t consumate it on your wedding night because she is pregnant by the Holy Spirit. Instead you say we consumated the marriage after we gave birth to a daughter, and named her Autumn.

You’re taking the Bible text and re-wording it as if you are stating it to someone about you. In that case it does seem a little hokie. Matthew is writing about someone other than himself so the flow is very logical. If I wrote about your story I would say "Hey teadough and his wife didn’t consumate their marriage until his wife gave birth to a baby girl, and they named her Autumn.

As far as labeling myself Protestant?? Protestant is a word I don’t like because I don’t consider myself Protestant. Just a generic Christian following the Bible. I’m probably like 40% RC / 60%
basic Christian.

PEACE

 

[ChristianRoots]

The Scriptures name brothers and mentions sisters of Jesus. In several places, the brothers are mentioned and James is often identified as James, the brother of the Lord.

Brothers and sisters can also mean extended family. Why else would Abram say to Lot in Genesis “We are brothers.”? Were Abram and Lot actual brothers? No, of course not.

Of course this brings up another question. The RCC teaches that Mary was immaculately conceived, gave birth as a virgin, remained a virgin and was assumed into heaven. So whether Mary remained a virgin or bore more children is of utmost importance to all the faiths; because other claims rise from this situation; what is the truth? Where will we find the truth?

 

[teadough]

I didn’t re-word it to fit. I merely commented that Autumn came from you having sex with your wife. Jesus did not as you know.

So I’ll re-phrase it to make more sense. You’re engaged to your wife and never had sex with her. One day she shows up pregnant to which you want to break off the engagament. An Angel says no don’t worry this child is from the Holy Spirit. You decide to move forward with the marriage but can’t consumate it on your wedding night because she is pregnant by the Holy Spirit. Instead you say we consumated the marriage after we gave birth to a daughter, and named her Autumn.

You’re taking the Bible text and re-wording it as if you are stating it to someone about you. In that case it does seem a little hokie. Matthew is writing about someone other than himself so the flow is very logical. If I wrote about your story I would say "Hey teadough and his wife didn’t consumate their marriage until his wife gave birth to a baby girl, and they named her Autumn.

As far as labeling myself Protestant?? Protestant is a word I don’t like because I don’t consider myself Protestant. Just a generic Christian following the Bible. I’m probably like 40% RC / 60%
basic Christian.

PEACE

I do see what you are trying to say,but either way it still does not make sense in the context of how the bible words it in my opinion. Yes, you can say it does in some sense so I will forgo my example.

I know how you feel about not labeling yourself as “protestant” when you go to a “non-denominational” church. I used to say the exact same thing.

Best of luck to you. I hope and pray that you find what you are looking for.

 

[Rocky]

Deacon110;3334814;3334463:

Likewise in Matthew. **“Joseph did not know Mary until after Jesus was born”. **This means they weren’t having sex while Mary was pregnant, but were waiting UNTIL Jesus was born. Very simple.

PEACE

Which translation are you using for this quote in Matthew?
Seems to me you are now changing the words of Scripture to fit your argument.

 

[Righteousone]

**The Scriptures name brothers and mentions sisters of Jesus. In several places, the brothers are mentioned and James is often identified as James, the brother of the Lord.

Of course this brings up another question. The RCC teaches that Mary was immaculately conceived, gave birth as a virgin, remained a virgin and was assumed into heaven. So whether Mary remained a virgin or bore more children is of utmost importance to all the faiths; because other claims rise from this situation; what is the truth? Where will we find the truth?

In my opinion this subject should be explained quite simply with Scripture, since Scripture devotes so many verses to it. To find out whether a claim is valid or not, we must go to Scripture.

The only major religion that claims perpetual virginity for Mary is the Roman Catholic Church. They dogmatically maintain that after Christ was born, Mary continued her virginity the rest of her life and had no other children.

This directly contradicts Scripture as I hope to be able to show.

First of all, the Bible never tells us anything about Joseph other than he was betrothed to Mary, a young virgin. So if any assumption at all is made about Joseph, we need to assume he was a young male betrothed to a young girl. There is no other reason to believe otherwise, according to Scripture.

Personally with so much validation by Scripture of Christ’s family, I don’t see why it was ever brought up at all. I believe it is a fabrication that started with someone who wanted Mary to have remained a virgin and then started looking for a way to explain that premise.

I’ll start with Matthew because the best place to start is with Scripture and Matthew mentions brothers and sisters of Christ.

Christ has been preaching and comes to His own country and preaches in the Synagogues. The people there were surprised because they recognized Jesus as one of their own and questioned why He knew so much. We learned in the Old Testament that a prophet was not respected by his own people.**

Matthew 13:54 “And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? 55) Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?”

**This identifies James and Joses as Jesus’ brothers, identifies Christ as the son of Joseph and identifies Mary as His mother.

Roman Catholics like to make the claim that the brothers mentioned here are “cousins” and not really brothers. They say there was no word for cousin but they are in error. Nowhere in Scripture does it even indicate that these were not brothers of Jesus.

But there is another verse in Matthew that makes no mention of brother at all but identifies Mary as the mother of James and Joses.**

Matthew 27:55 “And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: 56) Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s children.”

**This clearly identifies Mary as the mother of James and Joses.

There should be no doubt about Jesus’ family.

Scripture also tells us that after Joseph and Mary were married and Christ was born, Joseph knew his wife. We all know that is Biblical talk for having intercourse.

We go again to Matthew for the Scripture.**

Matthew 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25) And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

This tells us that Joseph did not "know" his wife until after Christ was born. He married her because it says he took her for his wife. Being a good young Jewish family, there is no reason to believe that they did not behave as a young normal married couple would behave and raise a family. This was the way of God and surely they respected that.

Jesus had brothers and sisters but the Bible does not name the sisters.

Why is it that Protestants continually think that Jesus had brothers?? He did not have brothers. They simply called people brothers back then. Catholics do not believe this. It simply is not true.

 

[1234]

Hey, Old “Scholar” -
Were you planning on addressing PAX’s post on the matter (below)?
OR, were you just planning on engaging in more hit-and-run tactics? That always seems to be the pattern with you. First, you post your outlandish claims against the Catholic Church - then, when somebody proves you wrong, you run.
How about answering the following?

Elvisman,

The above is a totally uncalled-for attack on Old Scholar, who answered you very moderately.

You use of color is tantamount to using CAPS.

Cut the outrage.

It will get you nowhere on this forum. Too many intelligent people, especially Old Scholar.

 

[elvisman]

elvisman;3334729:

So your question is what happens after GOD humbles all of Jesus enemies? Will he still sit at the right hand of GOD? Unfortunately we don’t know GOD’s complete plan after this happens.

The problem is the argument constantly is getting made for the interpretation of the word until. We want to try to apply a universal interpretation to every situation and when you think you find an exception you latch onto it to try and refute the others. Please consider the example I gave to Gabriel using the word until

in 2 different scenarios.

I say to you “I’m fasting until 12pm”. What does that mean to you? Am I going to eat prior to 12pm? NO I’m fasting during this time. How about after 12PM? Will I eat then? YES. I’m going to eat after 12PM. Matter of fact my statement is basically saying: I’m not eating until after 12PM. Up until 12pm I’m fasting.

Now let’s look at it another way:

I say to you “I’m fasting until the day I die”. What does that mean to you? That I’m going to eat after I die?? Of course not. It means I’m not going to eat while I’m alive.

Same thing with “Jesus will be with us until the end of the world”. This doesn’t mean he stops after that. It’s figurative for saying he will always be with us.

Likewise in Matthew. “Joseph did not know Mary until after Jesus was born”. This means they weren’t having sex while Mary was pregnant, but were waiting UNTIL Jesus was born. Very simple.

PEACE
THAT is about the WEAKEST argument I’ve ever heard on this subject. You can’t answer why the word “until” is used here so you use the old, “We don’t know GOD’s complete plan” defense?
Is that the BEST you can do? It is CLEARLY another use of the word, “until”.
**It is YOU **who doesn’t understand that biblical language is NOT understood in our modern vernacular - ALL of the time. I’m no linguist but even I know that!
So, when Exodus 15:8 tells us, “At the blast of Your nostrils the waters were piled up,. . .” YOU actually believe that God’s big nose caused the sea to part? You probably believe that *"*ALL have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God", as it says in Romans 3:23, instead of realizing that severely retarded people and infants are incapable of sinning. St. Paul was using hyperbole. Many passages in Scripture are written in poetic or hyperbolic terms.
Do some homework before making some of the claims you’ve made - or you might find yourself looking around real wolves wearing a sheep’s clothes (Matt. 7:15)

 

[elvisman]

Elvisman,

The above is a totally uncalled-for attack on Old Scholar, who answered you very moderately.

You use of color is tantamount to using CAPS.

Cut the outrage.

It will get you nowhere on this forum. Too many intelligent people, especially Old Scholar.

Actually, Old “Scholar” has a habit of using this hit and run tactic in his attacks on the Catholic Church. If you or he have disdain and outrage toward the Catholic Church do your best. The truth will ALWAYS win out over angry assaults against the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
**As for the color - I like it. Has NOTHING to do with outrage. **

By the way, if you had bothered to read my previous post (#80) you would have noticed that I was concerned about Old “Scholar’s” grandchild and promised to pray for his well-being. Can’t you feel the love?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Old Scholar;3334463:

Gabriel of 12;3334068:

First of all Deacon you are still confusing the threads on my posts, I was addressing Old Scholar, but since you replied I try and help you again, ok.

**That is my point, she did not have children until her death.Stop reading here Deacon. What does this scripture say? did she have children before her death?, did she have children after her death? or she did not have children at all?

Matthew 1:24…Lord commanded him ( Joseph) and took his wife (Mary) into his home. He had no relations ( did not know her) with her UNTIL she bore a son. Stop here Deacon

What does scripture say? Did Mary have sex with Joseph before Jesus was born? Did Joseph have sex with Mary after Jesus was born? or does this scripture state Joseph did not have sex with Mary until Jesus was born?

Until = it did not happen, and it does not state it will happen period. Please find another scripture to try and defend your opinion of Mary’s perpetual virginity. This one does not support your theory.

. Let scripture remain silent, dont add your own intentions of they may or should of had sex. Scripture does not say that. You cannot use this scripture to defend your opinion of Mary having sex with Joseph, scripture does not say that here, your going to need to try somewhere else. Dont you think, in 2000 years, a theologian or scholar would have figured this argument of yours out and raised it, but they dont, because they understand what the word Until is stating. To move on to the word know, you got have the scholary understanding of the word until being used in this text.

May the peace of the Lord, enlighten your understanding, and give you open heart to recieve knowledge of him.**

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Ohh good question I grew up Roman Catholic in Baltimore, MD. But over the previous year and a half I’ve been attending non-denominational services.

Oh, my goodness that explains why your all twisted on these topics someone has poisened your mind with anti catholic rhetoric, and used scripture to argue and convince you to leave the One Holy Catholic Apostolic church, for a non denominational. Wow, that explains the difficulty your having comprehending Truth.

Sorry I have to go now.

Peace

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Why is it that Protestants continually think that Jesus had brothers?? He did not have brothers. They simply called people brothers back then. Catholics do not believe this. It simply is not true.

Why? Because they see what they want to see to try and prove that Mary isn’t ever virgin.