The burden of proof is on believers to prove God exists (according to atheist philosphers)

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Karma is attached to one of the five constituents of a person, so the karma is a part of the person. At death the other four constituents change. All five constituents change from moment to moment, it is jut that the change is rather more drastic at the death to new life change.
I think you need to provide a solid argument that how the death of a person in one place can be causally related to formation of a zygote in another place. This just doesn’t make any sense to me. Needless to say that I completely understand that the five constituents of a person is casually related consecutively.
You are part of the same causal chain as you-last-week and you-next-week. You need to think about things more in terms of causal chains that change rather than fixed selves.
I understand that but you are not really offering anything which is related to my argument. Did you understood my argument “there is no self in Buddhism so the idea worrying about Karma in next life is meaningless”? In simple world a dead person and a new zygote don’t casually share anything. They are completely unrelated so the the idea of cycle of birth is meaningless.
A person is a collection of parts that constantly change. There is no inner unchanging essence. The classic example is a chariot, but a car will do as well. There is no self-of-car in a car, no essence-of-car. Remove all the individual parts of the car: wheels, doors, seats, engine etc. and there is nothing left, no essence-of-car. A “car” is merely a mental designation we give to a certain arrangement of parts as a convenient shorthand. The “car” as a single thing is a mental designation in our head. The actual car is not a single thing, but an arrangement of many different parts. We think of it as a single thing merely as a mental shorthand.

One point of Buddhist meditation is to recognise these mental shorthands that we all have and use. We need to recognise the differences between these internal mental models and the actual external world. The difference between the two is one of the causes of suffering.
That I understand but it is problematic. We in fact cannot distinguish between ourselves and external world without a self. Please watch this very interesting video.

Moreover, one can reach to state of non-self during meditation. How could possibly exist the meditation mode if you have no self?
 
We all have a relationship with God. Devotees of various religions are enlightened sufficiently to worship God as He has made Himself known to them. No one is in complete darkness. Actually, that sense comes from an encounter with God, being a realization of how far we are from the Truth. It’s not as bad as attempting to use the Pythagorean theorem to describe the meeting place of quantum mechanics and relativity, but eastern thought can take us only so far in describing the nature of God. Christianity brings us much closer. In the end, the sheep are not divided from the goats based on theological correctness, but through the acts of love which define the person we choose to be. It is stated as such in our scripture and makes complete sense.
Do you consider the Mahabharata and the Bhagavad Gita to be divine revelation and do you believe that we should worship Lord Krishna as incarnation of Lord Vishnu?
 
I think you need to provide a solid argument that how the death of a person in one place can be causally related to formation of a zygote in another place.
Three constituents are required to form a zygote: egg, sperm and gandhabba. The gandhabba is a non-material component which carries the accumulated karma of the previous life. In a similar way, Christianity required egg, sperm and soul, with soul being the non-material component. The gandhabba disappears after formation of the zygote, since the zygote now has its own Formations element.
Did you understood my argument “there is no self in Buddhism so the idea worrying about Karma in next life is meaningless”? In simple world a dead person and a new zygote don’t casually share anything. They are completely unrelated so the the idea of cycle of birth is meaningless.
The Buddha said, “Love others as you love yourself.” Whether that future person is you, or a different person, (or both or neither) you should love them. Hence the need to avoid causing that future person suffering.
That I understand but it is problematic. We in fact cannot distinguish between ourselves and external world without a self.
In our day-to-day interactions we talk about “car” and “myself” and everybody knows what we mean. When analysed more deeply, both “car” and “myself” dissolve into a collection of separate parts.

In the case of ourselves, we are part of a causal chain. Other people are parts of a different causal chain. Cars are part of yet another set of causal chains. These chains may interact, but they are still different chains.

Here is some relevant poetry:

He had bought a large map representing the sea,
Without the least vestige of land:
And the crew were much pleased when they found it to be
A map they could all understand.

“What’s the good of Mercator’s North Poles and Equators,
Tropics, Zones, and Meridian Lines?”
So the Bellman would cry: and the crew would reply
"They are merely conventional signs!

“Other maps are such shapes, with their islands and capes!
But we’ve got our brave Bellman to thank”
(So the crew would protest) “that he’s bought us the best -
A perfect and absolute blank!”

Lewis Carroll, The Hunting of the Snark, Fit the Second.

Both “car” and “self” are “merely conventional signs”.
Moreover, one can reach to state of non-self during meditation. How could possibly exist the meditation mode if you have no self?
It would be better described as the “state of realisation that there never was a self in the first place” but has been shortened for obvious reasons. There appears to be water in a mirage. At some point you become aware that it is just a mirage, and that there never was any water there at all. The same with the “self”; what you think is the self isn’t.

rossum
 
In that case we’re not responsible for what we believe or how we live and law courts are based on a false distinction between guilt and innocence because we have no control over ourselves or our behaviour. In other words it is a fantasy to think we are rational beings and it is foolish to trust any of our conclusions such as:
Everyone and everything we choose to believe, desire, appreciate and love.
In fact we are incapable of seeking the truth…
How this could be related to conscience?

If we are incapable of seeking the truth we have no rational basis for distinguishing good from evil.
 
Three constituents are required to form a zygote: egg, sperm and gandhabba. The gandhabba is a non-material component which carries the accumulated karma of the previous life. In a similar way, Christianity required egg, sperm and soul, with soul being the non-material component. The gandhabba disappears after formation of the zygote, since the zygote now has its own Formations element.
How identity is explained in Buddhism accepting the fact that there is no self? The cycle of birth and death is meaningless without self or identity. You need to have a sense of self to worry about your next life and in fact we have worries about death and life after. How you can possibly describe the fear of life after death if it is not attached to a self? We are solely a conscious being without self, enable to perform anything or have a personal feeling. There is a nice talk in this regards.
 
Everyone and everything we choose to believe, desire, appreciate and love.

If we are incapable of seeking the truth we have no rational basis for distinguishing good from evil.
I think we already discuss these in post #131. 😃
 
How identity is explained in Buddhism accepting the fact that there is no self?
You can remember your past experiences. You cannot remember Hillary Clinton’s past experiences. You are connected to your earlier self by a causal chain. You are not connected to Hillary Clinton’s earlier self by a causal chain. Do not think of a fixed self/soul; think of links in a chain. No link stretches the whole length of the chain, but is connected to the previous link and to the following link. The chain conventionally exists, just as a car exists. When analysed in detail, there are just separate links.

You are a link in one chain; Hillary Clinton is a link in a different chain. You are separately identified by the chain you are part of.
The cycle of birth and death is meaningless without self or identity.
Links in a chain. The chain extends over multiple lifetimes. You already know that you are different over the course of a single lifetime. You are even more different over the course of many lifetimes.

rossum
 
Links in a chain. The chain extends over multiple lifetimes. You already know that you are different over the course of a single lifetime. You are even more different over the course of many lifetimes.

rossum
Where is the evidence that a person has multiple lifetimes?
 
You stated “I don’t care if they choose to remain unpersuasive” as if it’s not an important matter.
Not even when it could prove fatal?
…It is understandable that they lose interest in this life but not whether there is an afterlife.
But you said if people don’t care about the value, purpose and meaning of life they are being unrealistic. I pointed out that many terminally ill people DO lose interest in life and I wonder how it is that you can tell them their disinterest is somehow unrealistic. Why are your interests and values obligatory or reasonable for someone else whose worldview might be totally different?

Your question is based on the false assumption I would bring up the subject regardless of a person’s frame of mind. I certainly wouldn’t tell anyone they are being unrealistic. Daily life is not a philosophy forum!
Then you are seeking the impossible because absolute certainty is unattainable for beings with limited knowledge and intelligence.
…that was my point. Which one of us is in a position to absolutely say (as you did) what is and isn’t realistic insofar as “the value, purpose and meaning of life.”?

We don’t base our day to day lives on absolute certainty but on probability. In practice no one behaves as life is valueless, purposeless and meaningless. People usually commit suicide when they reach that conclusion…
…You seem pretty confident about “the brains in a vat” hypothesis! Do you have direct knowledge of the vat - or your brain for that matter? Or do you infer the existence of your body? How would you prove the brain exists?
You’re asking me? I was hoping you would be my philosophy teacher.
Oh well. The search continues.

On a philosophy forum we exchange ideas and hopefully we learn and modify our views according to the extent we find other points of view reasonable. No one is infallible or mistaken in every respect. The truth is usually found between extremes like “Everything is due to Chance” and “Everything is due to Design”. The best test of any belief is whether it corresponds to the way we live…
 
In order to get closer to the truth, we have to go beyond what we know. We have to further explore our world and connect with its deeper truths. This entails developing new modes of understanding as well as the technologies to pierce the veil of appearance, in order to bring that underlying structure to light in our minds.

As you stated earlier:

If one doesn’t play with triangles and try to discern their inherent properties, one isn’t going to realize the principles that define them.

We all have a relationship with God. Devotees of various religions are enlightened sufficiently to worship God as He has made Himself known to them. No one is in complete darkness. Actually, that sense comes from an encounter with God, being a realization of how far we are from the Truth. It’s not as bad as attempting to use the Pythagorean theorem to describe the meeting place of quantum mechanics and relativity, but eastern thought can take us only so far in describing the nature of God. Christianity brings us much closer. In the end, the sheep are not divided from the goats based on theological correctness, but through the acts of love which define the person we choose to be. It is stated as such in our scripture and makes complete sense.
👍 Without love life is meaningless…
 
Where is the evidence that a person has multiple lifetimes?
It’s an explanation that addresses the complexities of our existence: our feelings, perceptual and cognitive faculties, as well as the basic character and temperament from which our personalities are moulded in life. Billions of people believe it, and it does make sense. It is a much better explanation than thinking this ends in oblivion, which some believe to be true. I should say that not all Buddhists believe in reincarnation. An alternate view would be that our karma creates the illusion of a new soul, there being only one transcendent mind in a self-imposed state of ignorance, believing itself to be many. While I do not share any of the above views, I don’t believe I can prove to that poster that he’s wrong. The proof, more than sufficient for me, is to be found in scripture and in the experience of love, the connection that reveals the unique existence of another human soul. It is not possible to share such things unless the other person is open to them. What evidence there is that would lead one to think that a person has multiple lifetimes is better explained by Christian cosmology.
 
You can remember your past experiences. You cannot remember Hillary Clinton’s past experiences. You are connected to your earlier self by a causal chain. You are not connected to Hillary Clinton’s earlier self by a causal chain. Do not think of a fixed self/soul; think of links in a chain. No link stretches the whole length of the chain, but is connected to the previous link and to the following link. The chain conventionally exists, just as a car exists. When analysed in detail, there are just separate links.

You are a link in one chain; Hillary Clinton is a link in a different chain. You are separately identified by the chain you are part of.

Links in a chain. The chain extends over multiple lifetimes. You already know that you are different over the course of a single lifetime. You are even more different over the course of many lifetimes.

rossum
Well my friend, given the power of imagination of human we can construct countless number of system of belief. I try my best but I think we are beating the dead horse.
 
It’s an explanation that addresses the complexities of our existence: our feelings, perceptual and cognitive faculties, as well as the basic character and temperament from which our personalities are moulded in life. Billions of people believe it, and it does make sense.
It is curious that some Roman Catholics now believe that reincarnation makes sense.
 
It is on the shelf right next to the evidence that a person has a soul.

rossum
I don’t see it on a shelf in my area. Where is this shelf you are talking about, or is it some sort of delusion?
 
It is curious that some Roman Catholics now believe that reincarnation makes sense.
It makes sense as it makes sense that the sun rises and sets while a truer explanation is that the earth revolves around it.
 
It is curious that some Roman Catholics now believe that reincarnation makes sense.
Not wanting to beat “the dead horse”,😉 based on the available data (the pattern of topics and responses, the language, never seeing them together in the same space-time coordinates), to conclude that STT is a reincarnation of Bahman makes sense to me. 🙂
 
But these Indian Hindus were left in the dark to worship their gods such as Vishnu, Sri (Lakshmi), Shiva, Parvati (Durga), Brahma and Saraswati. Why enlighten one small group of people, and leave everyone else in complete darkness?
For the same reason that Jesus, Buddha, and Mohammed (to name just a few leaders of movements) named a core group of inner circle members.

The leader concentrates on developing the understanding of the core, and the core then expands to the next generation which expands to the next generation, and so on.

God began with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob…Moses…David…etc. From an insignificant group of goatherders, he built a powerful nation that has unquestionably influenced the course of human history far beyond what mere numbers alone would suggest possible.

It is the responsibility of believers to bring the light of Christ to those who are still searching for God among the shadows.
 
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