The Burial of Suicides

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Is the point of the original question to have a canonical discussion comparing the current Code and the previous one, or to understand why the Church gives funerals to those who took their own life?

If the former - it seems as though a vigorous discussion has entailed - well done to the [probably small audience] of those who understand Canon law
If the latter - it is principally a reliance upon the mercy of God. The praxis of the Church is clear here. It may interest you to know that the ritual book we use to conduct funeral liturgies has specific readings and prayers for a person who takes their own life.
 
No – I’m not saying “throw everything out”! Rather, I’m saying what the 1983 CIC says:
When this Code takes force, the following are abrogated:

1/ the Code of Canon Law promulgated in 1917;

2/ other universal or particular laws contrary to the prescripts of this Code unless other provision is expressly made for particular laws;

3/ any universal or particular penal laws whatsoever issued by the Apostolic See unless they are contained in this Code;

4/ other universal disciplinary laws regarding matter which this Code completely reorders.
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Other sources of law, not covered by this canon, aren’t part of that directive to abrogate. When you say “we should ignore the entiretly of … the 1917 code”, I respond, “Yes! That’s what c. 6 tells us to do!”

But, if you’re asserting that, by virtue that directive, we’re thinking that we’re being told to throw away other sources not mentioned in c. 6… well then, I’m not the one “oversimplifying and overgeneralizing”. 😉

You have a nice day, too.
 
No… the commentary to 1184 says “this doesn’t apply to funerals for those who commit suicide.”
The commentators are entitled to their own opinions if they are so inclined.
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And… there it is! “Look at the commentary!!!”… until the commentary says something you don’t like, at which point it becomes “the commentary is only an opinion!” :roll_eyes:

Yeah, I think we’re done here. I’ve demonstrated that this canon doesn’t apply to funerals for those who commit suicide. If you’re unwilling to see that, then doing other things might be the most productive course of action for you at this point! 👍 😃
 
Those are such cold and dispassionate words for something that involves so much real world pain and distress. I can only guess that this is an area you have no real life experience of.
 
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There’s the rub. But is it our place to apply justice? Jesus taught us not to judge.
I’ve had a long talk with two priests in my parish about suicide, one shortly after I attempted it, and the other a few months earlier. Thanks to them, I got the help I needed and am fine now. But we did talk about the “what if” had I succeeded. They both told me the church has softened their stance on suicide because in most cases there are severe mental struggles and other pressures affecting the person. Things we have no way of understanding. I did my confession and penance, but they said it wasn’t a sin. I’m a relatively new Catholic, having converted from the Church of the Nazarene. One thing that really help my decision to convert was the nonjudgmental attitude I’ve experienced while attending Mass with my wife. At least that has been my experience.
 
Because you come across as someone who talks only in cold legalistic ways. And you refer back to a 1907 canon of law, when we had so little understanding and so little public discussion of what leads a person to end their life.

If suicide has touched your life, then it doesn’t come across in how you talk about it. Can you imagine sitting in a room and telling devout Catholic parents of a young man who has taken their life what you have been telling us here? That it would be a scandal to give him a church burial, even when it may only be their faith that is keeping them going? Those berieved by suicide are themselves more likely to end their own lives, such can be their utter despair. Berievement by suicide is one of the most difficult berievements for people to process - it frequently involves intense feelings of guilt, anger and regret.

The Church in 1907 was almost totally ignorant on suicide. Just because it was written in a canon doesn’t mean the people who wrote it knew diddly squat about what they were writing. The Church has had to learn about suicide just as the rest of us have - they had no magical insight in 1907. Far from it. It was such a taboo for so long it was hard for anyone to open up about it. It is only in the last 50 years that taboo has been broken down, and that we can now get people opening up about their suicidal thoughts (sadly for young men we still have a long way to go to get more opening up).

Please - get your head out of 1907 canon law books if you are trying to understand mental health and suicide. If the people who wrote that had spoken to just one person as they were ending their life I am sure they would never have written anything so utterly cruel (to the person and to their family) as to deny them a church funeral.

We need to continue to break down the taboo around suicide. We need people to know we, as society and Church, no longer judge them because of the depth of despair they are feeling, and that it OK to be open about it. In 2018 we want to support, not condemn, people who are in such despair.

Please, please, don’t try to build that taboo and guilt up again.
 
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P.S. My perspective comes from supporting people with suicidal thoughts. And sadly once about every three or four months I am the last person someone talks to as they end their life; we (www.samaritans.org, a UK organisation where people can discuss things in confidence, knowing that they will not be judged) do not want anyone to ever feel they are alone, even if that means being with them (by phone) as they end their life.

So I hope that explains my frustration about suicide, and the suggestion of a church burial being a ‘scandal’, being discussed in such a dispassionate way.
 
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I’m sorry, but I think this thread has essentially devolved into one poster trying to show how clever they are, while missing every point made about the practical and humanitarian aspects of the Church ministering to suicidal people and their families.

I also think the extended legalistic discussion shows an extreme lack of sensitivity to those who might have first-hand experience with such matters.

For any new Catholics or non-Catholics reading the thread, I would like to emphasize that this cold legalism is NOT how either the Church or most individual Catholics approach this issue.
 
I’d like to see you try to tell that to the grieving family.

Perhaps a little less time reading outdated canon law, and a little more time reading the words of Jesus, might be in order.
 
So, is your overall point then that the Church today, in being more empathetic towards suicides on the very logical basis that (a) most of them likely are making their decisions under great mental strain and/or mental illness, and (b) there is a significant possibility of them repenting before they actually die, is practicing a “watered-down, chocolately caricature of God’s love and mercy” and “insult(ing) the Holy Gospels”?

In short, is this whole thread of yours just a glorified bash of the post-VII church?
 
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