The Burkini

[Mirdath]

Under Islam it is the woman tempting the man, which means SHE must cover up.

I was thus being ironic.

Nice backpedal, but many Christian men seem to think that way too… irony failed.

 

[Montalban]

Nice backpedal, but many Christian men seem to think that way too… irony failed.

It’s not a ‘backpedal’ (the notion of that is simply you making assumptions AGAIN and posting on that basis). It’s you assuming that I was in support of the burkini, and I wasn’t. I was being ironic, and you didn’t pick up on it. Rather than admit you were wrong, or just leaving things alone you’re wishing to continue from a position of being wrong.

It’s a major theme of Islam that the women cover up to ‘protect’ the men. IF you can find evidence for
a) Christians believing that
or
b) me specifically, you’d have a point (and people who know my posts know that I have a lot to say on Islam’s way of thinking)*

You missed the irony and it just seems rather strange you’d want to continue to advertise this fact.

*I can understand that you may have missed my posts in general, but when I point out that I was being ironic you should take that as a hint and you’ve no need to continue on with false assumptions.

 

[Montalban]

one word for you all: speedo

This needs some burkini action.

Alas Speedo used to be an Australian owned-brand. Formed in 1928

 

[Mirdath]

It’s a major theme of Islam that the women cover up to ‘protect’ the men. IF you can find evidence for
a) Christians believing that
or
b) me specifically, you’d have a point (and people who know my posts know that I have a lot to say on Islam’s way of thinking)

Here’s a good thread.

Start with the first post, go to the second, the fifth, the seventh, the twelfth, the thirteenth, the sixteenth, the twentieth, the twenty-first, the twenty-second, and the twenty-fifth. All those posts consider women and their dress a source of temptation for men, just as the devil tempted Jesus in the desert. They’re trying to shift the blame for their own lack of self-control – there’s no excuse for that. Self-control is a matter of self, not others. Why should women have to account for the sins of men?

 

[Montalban]

Here’s a good thread.

Start with the first post, go to the second, the fifth, the seventh, the twelfth, the thirteenth, the sixteenth, the twentieth, the twenty-first, the twenty-second, and the twenty-fifth. All those posts consider women and their dress a source of temptation for men, just as the devil tempted Jesus in the desert. They’re trying to shift the blame for their own lack of self-control – there’s no excuse for that. Self-control is a matter of self, not others.

I don’t consider this to be representative of Christian thought.

Why should women have to account for the sins of men?

Why ask me when I don’t believe that they should. I am on record… I was not back-pedalling…
I started a thread ages ago “Moslem leader speaks on Women” based on the headline "Muslim leader blames women for sex attacks

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=116097

Another thread, of which I participated in was

“Does women way of dressing affect the possibility of sexual assault?”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=116323

My first response in this at post #66

If you walked down the street dressed as a wrestler would you expect someone to come out and tackle you and wrestle you to the ground?

What Islam wants is the abrogation of responsibility of men. A man has a problem with sexual hang-ups, so rather than deal with that, lock the woman up, or cover her from head-to-toe.

A man assaults a woman, sexually, she’s at fault.

So, to use the Imam’s analogy he’s comparing men to animals!

Using my own analogy…
If you walk down the street and you see a diamond on the street do you have every right to pocket this and keep it?

emphasis now added

Post #69

What’s ‘modest’ for you is not for some. It’d be an easy excuse for any man to simply suggest that whatever she’s wearing was immodest. Men need to learn to take responsibility for their own actions

emphasis now added

 

[Mirdath]

I don’t consider this to be representative of Christian thought.

They are some Christians’ thoughts

Anyway, looks like we’re taking a couple of jokes entirely too seriously and I’m in complete agreement with the rest of your post, so let’s return to our regularly scheduled programming…

 

[deb1]

Under Islam it is the woman tempting the man, which means SHE must cover up.

I was thus being ironic.

Actually, I have read many, many Christian website articles that presented the view that the woman must cover up to keep the man from being overly tempted and falling into sin. I don’t think that view is being put forward on this thread, however.

I think that true modesty is empowering for the woman because she is respecting herself, her body and God and isn’t mainly to keep any temptation away from a man.

Heck, people get tempted by such a wide array of body parts(in Victorian novels the authors speak of long necks being attractive) that it would be impossible to cover up enough.

That is why I think that modesty should be something the woman does for herself.

I hope that all made sense.

 

[deb1]

Here’s a good thread.

Start with the first post, go to the second, the fifth, the seventh, the twelfth, the thirteenth, the sixteenth, the twentieth, the twenty-first, the twenty-second, and the twenty-fifth. All those posts consider women and their dress a source of temptation for men, just as the devil tempted Jesus in the desert. They’re trying to shift the blame for their own lack of self-control – there’s no excuse for that. Self-control is a matter of self, not others. Why should women have to account for the sins of men?

You need to reread post. MINE was the first post and never did I suggest that women should cover up to protect men from themselves. I do not even think that is the goal of modesty.

No, women should not have to account for the sins of men. That doesn’t mean that a woman shouldn’t be modest for herself or to honor God.

I copied and pasted my first post and I would like to know where I expressed the view that you suggested in your post. By the way, I haven’t seen anybody suggest that women should be modest to keep men from sinning. Perhaps you are reading the thread with preconcieved notions of what being modest means or the reasons behind modesty.

I** saw a video on Reuters about Muslim swimwear called the Burkini.**

http://www.ahiida.com/index.php?a=results&subcat=59

It was interesting. I have to admit it is admirable that Muslim women are trying to find ways to stay both active and modest.

The above is a link to the store that sells the Burkini not the Reuters report.
__________________

 

[Montalban]

Actually, I have read many, many Christian website articles that presented the view that the woman must cover up to keep the man from being overly tempted and falling into sin. I don’t think that view is being put forward on this thread, however.

I think that true modesty is empowering for the woman because she is respecting herself, her body and God and isn’t mainly to keep any temptation away from a man.

Heck, people get tempted by such a wide array of body parts(in Victorian novels the authors speak of long necks being attractive) that it would be impossible to cover up enough.

That is why I think that modesty should be something the woman does for herself.

I hope that all made sense.

If someone wants to propose that it’s a “Christian” value, rather than something some who are Christians believe I think then they should forward the evidence.

In Victorian times they even covered the legs of tables so as not to evoke lustful thoughts!

 

[deb1]

If someone wants to propose that it’s a “Christian” value, rather than something some who are Christians believe I think then they should forward the evidence.

In Victorian times they even covered the legs of tables so as not to evoke lustful thoughts!

I don’t think that it is a Christian value at all. I think that it is a distortion of what we believe. But that doesn’t deny the fact that there are Christians who sadly think that protecting a man from lustful thoughts is the woman’s job.

This isn’t to say that women-and men- shouldn’t be modest not only in how we dress but what we say and how we act.

Still, I admire the fact that any woman-Muslim or Christin-is willing to deviate from society’s progress toward showing more and more skin in order to follow their religious beliefs.

 

[Montalban]

I don’t think that it is a Christian value at all. I think that it is a distortion of what we believe. But that doesn’t deny the fact that there are Christians who sadly think that protecting a man from lustful thoughts is the woman’s job.

This isn’t to say that women-and men- shouldn’t be modest not only in how we dress but what we say and how we act.

Still, I admire the fact that any woman-Muslim or Christine-is willing to deviate from society’s progress toward showing more and more skin in order to follow their religious beliefs.

I too think it’s a distortion. Though St. Paul says women should cover their hair.

I recall some time ago an interview with an English woman who’d converted to Islam. She wore the head-scarf. She talked happily of how she no longer felt like a sex-symbol/object of desire. She was, whilst saying this, trying on an even more severe set of clothes, that covered the face and eyes too (the eyes had some kind of mesh to see through). She was moving to Yemen with her Yemeni husband. It struck me as odd that in a strongly Islamic nation she’d have to be even more covered up then here in the decadent west!

 

[Booklover]

I too think it’s a distortion. Though St. Paul says women should cover their hair.

I recall some time ago an interview with an English woman who’d converted to Islam. She wore the head-scarf. She talked happily of how she no longer felt like a sex-symbol/object of desire. She was, whilst saying this, trying on an even more severe set of clothes, that covered the face and eyes too (the eyes had some kind of mesh to see through). She was moving to Yemen with her Yemeni husband. It struck me as odd that in a strongly Islamic nation she’d have to be even more covered up then here in the decadent west!

Exactly! It seems that the only way that “pious” Muslim men can control their lust, is if the woman is not even recognizable as a woman!

 

[shannyk]

Actually, I have read many, many Christian website articles that presented the view that the woman must cover up to keep the man from being overly tempted and falling into sin.

I’m surprised at how many Catholic’s; especially those who frequent these boards, hold this as a ‘Catholic’ belief.

 

[Montalban]

Exactly! It seems that the only way that “pious” Muslim men can control their lust, is if the woman is not even recognizable as a woman!

It’s also part of a belief that women aren’t sexual creatures, because it’s only the man who lusts.

 

[deb1]

It’s also part of a belief that women aren’t sexual creatures, because it’s only the man who lusts.

I read somewhere that Muslim men do believe that women lust, that is why some Muslim cultures circumcise women to protect them from themselves.

 

[inJESUS]

Ok now. Modest bathing suit for women. What about modest bathing suits for men?

 

[Montalban]

I read somewhere that Muslim men do believe that women lust, that is why some Muslim cultures circumcise women to protect them from themselves

Moslems may point to some script that says something about ‘mutual pleasure’, but it’s only just recently that one ‘respected’ Islamic centre has said something about it; and even then, at their conference, the feeling wasn’t unaminous.

 

[deb1]

Ok now. Modest bathing suit for women. What about modest bathing suits for men?

I’m not tempted by a guy in loose trunks. I might find him attractive but it doesn’t cause me to lust. Speedos are pretty disgusting though.

Yes, both genders should be modest but as a woman I am concerned with doing what*** I*** am supposed to do regardless of the fact that there does seem to be a double standard for men. I have to worry about what I do as a Christian, not how others are holding up their end of the bargin.

There are too many who see modesty as something that a woman does to protect a man.I think that is why so many people have a kneejerk emotional reaction whenever the word, "modesty’ is said or when the topic is discussed.

 

[LittleDeb]

I’m not tempted by a guy in loose trunks. I might find him attractive but it doesn’t cause me to lust. Speedos are pretty disgusting though.

Yes, both genders should be modest but as a woman I am concerned with doing what*** I*** am supposed to do regardless of the fact that there does seem to be a double standard for men. I have to worry about what I do as a Christian, not how others are holding up their end of the bargin.

There are too many who see modesty as something that a woman does to protect a man.I think that is why so many people have a kneejerk emotional reaction whenever the word, "modesty’ is said or when the topic is discussed.

Your post here brings up a good point I had wanted to address. Men and women are both capable of lust, yet we lust differently. The wording I heard here on CAF that I really liked was this: Lust for men comes from a whole bunch of pictures with just a few words. Lust for women comes from a whole bunch of words with just one picture. Men are more likely to lust physically while women are more likely to lust emotionally.

 

[fin]

burkini looks okay, but does the head have to be covered? i find the bump at the back of the head unnecessary.