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Fizendell
Guest
“…may we come to share…”
To me this is a petition to the Father that we might one day join our Savior in heaven - share in His divinity - as He came to earth and shared our humanity.
I could be wrong.
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To me this is a petition to the Father that we might one day join our Savior in heaven - share in His divinity - as He came to earth and shared our humanity.
I could be wrong.
C
cheese_sdc
Guest
Actually, I think you’re right, but it illustrates how a person could be wrong, and still be a good catholic. But the way to treat such a person would not be by shouting “THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND”, (as someone has done to me) but with quiet understanding and teaching.
And I’m glad to see people here that understand the difference between faith and superstition. Sometimes I wonder myself where the line gets drawn. Does this make me a “bad” catholic. Nope. It means that I am a Catholic who thinks and ponders what his faith is all about.
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Trelow
Guest
The line is drawn at submission and obedience.
“Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.”
“Father, if thou art willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”
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rlg94086
Guest
I agree, but… ( "everybody’s got such big buts - PeeWee Herman)…reading the following in Ask an Apologist has made me contemplate the “cafeteria Catholic” remarks which I used a lot in the past. I’ve used the term to describe others, as well as myself.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=54716
A couple of thoughts -
I was a cafeteria Catholic until I learned more about our Faith and prayed, so today’s cafeteria Catholic could be tomorrow’s Catholic who is struggling with their sin instead of denying it.
If someone doesn’t understand the authority of the Magisterium, they are acting out of ignorance, and by definition not in a state of Mortal Sin.
Prayerful correction goes a lot further than a label.
IOW…hate the sin, not the sinner.
God Bless,
Robert.
P.S. I don’t even like buffets, let alone cafeterias. If I’m going out, I want to be served!
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conservonator
Guest
I’m not sure you do. I think he was trying to point out that there is infact a distinction between orthodoxy and heresy and that there is no gray are or middle ground; you’re aligned with one or the other. This is one of those all or nothing deals.
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cheese_sdc
Guest
Nope.
After reading many threads on these forums, I’m not sure if we can ever come to an understanding on this issue (and many others). So I’m not going to pursue the discussion any longer.
It seems to me that the crux of the matter is that most people here believe the Church to be unchangable, unalterable, and without error. And furthermore, if a person doesn’t agree with those tenants, he or she is a “bad” catholic, or worse a heretic.
It is very much like today’s political climate. Woe to those in the middle, they get shot from both sides.
It is not worth my increased blood pressure to attempt a discussion with such people.
Goodbye, and may God have mercy on His Church.
'Cuz from what I’ve read here over the past few weeks, we need it.
D
Dr.Bombay
Guest
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot.** But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth. ** *
–Apocalypse 3:14-16
*Or, in the quaint colloquialism of today: “The only thing in the middle of the road are yellow lines and dead armadillos.”
–Apocalypse 3:14-16
*Or, in the quaint colloquialism of today: “The only thing in the middle of the road are yellow lines and dead armadillos.”
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Lux_et_veritas
Guest
This is a better statement, indeed, that it was never opened. It was only open in the minds of some.On EWTN’s Mass today, Father Connor mentioned this phrase. His reponse was great though, instead of saying “the Cafeteria is Closed”, the appropriate reponse in the eyes of the Church, should be “The Cafeteria was Never Opened”!
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Lux_et_veritas
Guest
I will say that it is one thing to struggle with a church doctrine or teaching as we have probably all done it at one time or another. What we have to remember is that we can take any 100 people an put them in a room and each may come to different conclusions about the teaching. If the church allowed each to accept their own conclusion according to their own conscience or reasoning, then we would have utter chaos.
A ship cannot have 10 captains all trying to take the ship in 10 different directions. Rather, Christ, in all his goodness and simplicity gave us the gift of the Papacy and the Magisterium. The hard part for many people is to accept holy obedience to church doctrine and teachings, especially when we struggle with it. That holy obedience is more dear to God when it is done out of trust, rather than agreement. It is at these times we pray for understanding and in time, when he so wills it, it will come.
We cannot…we absolutely cannot get so presumptious as to think that we, in the few years we’ve been on this earth, be it 21, 50, 75, or 100 for that matter can trump the knowledge the Catholic church has attained over 2000 years. Most people who disagree with a doctrine have not even bothered to look deeply at why the church says what it does. Many convert to the teaching when they do.
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Liberian
Guest
Cheese,
A response that I have heard to a fundamentalist saying that his church is based on the Bible is that the Catholic church wrote the Bible." Catholicism is not based on Scripture. It is in accord with Scripture, but that is not the same thing.
The thread got a little mangled here, so I don’t know when the question changed from questioning the Church’s teachings to superstition in praying a novena. But regarding the Church’s teachings, I would like to propose that there is a fuzzy region at the edge where one is questioning those teachings with an eye to understanding them better–questioning what they really mean. Beyond that are the true dissenters, who say “The Church may teach this, but she ought to be teaching that.” Examples of this sort of thing are the ordination of women to the priesthood, artificial birth control, and approval of homosexual activity. We may not know where the line between obedience and disobedience is exactly, but we can tell for sure that some things are beyond that line.
Again, I’m not sure what the question is here, but a look at John 10:34-35 may be constructive.
- Liberian
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Lux_et_veritas
Guest
Exactly!
One of the things that I’ve done when I wanted to understand a church teaching or understand it deeper, is to simply ask him to give me that understanding. But, I also told him that I would exercise patience and would obey the teaching or doctrine out of respect for the Papacy and the Magisterium.
I have found repeatedly, that the understanding often follows within days or weeks, not much longer. And, it often happens suddenly and unexpectedly. I’ve had things come to me out of the blue while standing in line at a grocery store. Maybe someone does or says something and then you have that “A-Ha!” moment.
Prayer people! “Ask and you shall receive”.
G
gelsbern
Guest
The original quote was
netmil(name removed by moderator):
She didn’t say that the church wasn’t scripturally bases, she said biblically based and she is correct there. She is also correct about tradition being one of the foundations of the church. However she did leave out the word scripture.
Perhaps a better way, more to your liking would be
We are not biblically based, we are scripturally based.
Um, I think this is a petition that we are asking for this to happen either after we die, or after the 2nd coming, whichever happens first.
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ames61
Guest
Or how about
We are not biblically based, we are revelation based, revelation that manifests itself in scripture (as codified by the Church) and tradition, and is protected and interpreted by the Holy Spirit through the Magesterium.
Bit wordy for a slogan though.
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ames61
Guest
:yup: Agree to this all. The Church declares herself to be infallible in teaching matters of faith and morals. Therefore in matters of faith and morals she cannot and will not change. So people who are clinging to the faith, waiting for the next council or pope to declare birth control, or homosexual activity etc to be acceptable are hoping in vain.
I understand not understanding all her teachings. And like Diane said, obedience out of faith is even more pleasing than obedience out of agreement. So, its perfectly okay to not understand the church teaching, and to be involved in a quest designed to bring you to that understanding.
But if one does not agree with the Church, and adamantly believes that the Church is wrong, why would one want to be a member of a church who declares herself to be infallible with respect to that teaching? If one is right and the Church is wrong, then she is compounding that error by declaring herself to be infallible. Why stick around if you disagree? I just don’t get it.
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CARose
Guest
I know there were times in my past when I didn’t accept various Church teachings. When I finally got infallibility down, I realized that for teachings I didn’t agree with that I needed to ceede to the Church and accept, even if I still didn’t understand.
I found that by praying for understanding to help me in my faith, I quickly had the information I needed at my fingertips, often with very little effort on my part. The Holy Spirit really does work with a willing heart.
I pray that all those who are having difficulty with the stands taken by the Church simply pray for enlightenment, especially if they don’t think it is possible that the Church could be right in matter before them. I had to make a complete about face on some issues that I held to quite strongly, but it worked through prayer.
God Bless,
CARose
I found that by praying for understanding to help me in my faith, I quickly had the information I needed at my fingertips, often with very little effort on my part. The Holy Spirit really does work with a willing heart.
I pray that all those who are having difficulty with the stands taken by the Church simply pray for enlightenment, especially if they don’t think it is possible that the Church could be right in matter before them. I had to make a complete about face on some issues that I held to quite strongly, but it worked through prayer.
God Bless,
CARose
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rlg94086
Guest
Wonderfully said. I had a similar journey, and I would be surprised if most people didn’t at some point in their lives. For some it is a more difficult and prolonged struggle than others. I also pray for those who have difficult with Church authority that they may be enlightened.
God Bless,
Robert.
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