The Calamity of Abortion

[BamaRider]

Let me say at the beginning, this is only MY personal opinion, but I think many of the natural disasters we are seeing in the USA (fires, hurricanes, tornados, floods) is the Father upset at our nation for allowing the scourage of abortion as a rule of law. And His way of telling us to come back to Him.

Despite this, his Hand of Justice has been restrained on America, look what happened to the God less govt of China, where life is not respected- a earthquake that kills over 10,000 people, many of them children. As He struck down the first born of Eygpt, so he sits in judgement today. Those that do not fear his Mighty Hand, should know his power. How much longer He will restrain His justice on America no one can say. How deeply He is hurt by the killing of millions of innocent babies. When none here speak for them, you can rest assured He will.

 

[ribozyme]

Let me say at the beginning, this is only MY personal opinion, but I think many of the natural disasters we are seeing in the USA (fires, hurricanes, tornados, floods) is the Father upset at our nation for allowing the scourage of abortion as a rule of law. And His way of telling us to come back to Him.

Despite this, his Hand of Justice has been restrained on America, look what happened to the God less govt of China, where life is not respected- a earthquake that kills over 10,000 people, many of them children. As He struck down the first born of Eygpt, so he sits in judgement today. Those that do not fear his Mighty Hand, should know his power. How much longer He will restrain His justice on America no one can say. How deeply He is hurt by the killing of millions of innocent babies. When none here speak for them, you can rest assured He will.

Wow… you got to be kidding. You sound exactly like Pat Robertson while he was discussing 9/11.

Natural disasters happen whether despite our actions. Oh wait, climate change (global warming) might be an important exception and running out oil. But those are trival issues compared to abortion.

If you are actually being sincere, I can understand why I disagree with you on other issues. And our disagreement is more fundamental than mere squabbles about the optimal amount of government.

 

[BamaRider]

Like I said, it is just my personal opinon. I have noway of knowing that for sure. Maybe natural disasters happen by chance, maybe not.

I recall a few Muslims leaders calling the spate of hurricanes in the U.S. that killed about 1000 people, as a response to America’s involvement in the Mid East. A few days later a earthquake struck Afghan/Pakistan area that killed 35,0000.

As a secular person you wouldnt’ understand that perhaps those are signals.

I do believe abortion has not helped our nation in the eyes of the Lord, and how he chooses to deal with a society that kills so many of its children, I can’t began to know.

All I can tell ya He is not pleased by it.

China is Godless society, the govt there kills millions of babies through abortion, and punish couples for having more than one baby. Currently, Catholic missionaries are being persecuted and jailed in China. They have converted millions of Chinese, and the govt is NOT pleased about it. It is one of the fastest growing regions of Catholicism.

Now whether any of that had anything to do with a earthquake that might have killed 50k people I don’t know.

 

[thistle]

Like I said, it is just my personal opinon. I have noway of knowing that for sure. Maybe natural disasters happen by chance, maybe not.

I recall a few Muslims leaders calling the spate of hurricanes in the U.S. that killed about 1000 people, as a response to America’s involvement in the Mid East. A few days later a earthquake struck Afghan/Pakistan area that killed 35,0000.

As a secular person you wouldnt’ understand that perhaps those are signals.

I do believe abortion has not helped our nation in the eyes of the Lord, and how he chooses to deal with a society that kills so many of its children, I can’t began to know.

All I can tell ya He is not pleased by it.

China is Godless society, the govt there kills millions of babies through abortion, and punish couples for having more than one baby. Currently, Catholic missionaries are being persecuted and jailed in China. They have converted millions of Chinese, and the govt is NOT pleased about it. It is one of the fastest growing regions of Catholicism.

Now whether any of that had anything to do with a earthquake that might have killed 50k people I don’t know.

Be careful how you express yourself as you might offend the 82 million Christians who live in china.

 

[BamaRider]

Be careful how you express yourself as you might offend the 82 million Christians who live in china.

You’re right, *the govt *knows not God.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I read this and had to laugh. I wonder if bama rider was outraged over Rev Wright’s preaching, which follows the same line as he presents here.

I don’t believe that God sends disasters to nations, to punish the evils. After all, devote saints die right along with the heathens.

Jim

 

[Cari]

Without weighing in on the OP’s original theory, all the posters here who profess belief in the divine origin of the Bible, yet dismiss the OP’s theory out of hand, one wonders how you view the Biblical accounts of God punishing nations via natural disasters.

I know that as Catholics we don’t believe that the Bible is a history book any more than it is a science book, but to scoff at the notion that God, as Creator of nature, could use nature to punish transgressions seems to scoff at several rather important parts of the Bible.

 

[BamaRider]

No, the Rev Wright preached 911(man made) was caused by our actions, last time I checked, different then a earthquake.

Like I said, I don’t know for sure, but I think the scourage of abortion is felt on America, and all places that have such blatant disrepect for life such as China, or do you think God turns a blind eye to us in the fact millions of babies have been lost?

This is also the view of Mother Angelica, (EWTN only a few miles from my house) that some of what happens here on this earth is God trying to tell us something, unless you feel we live and die in a vacumn.

You might find it funny at such a hypotheis, but the first born of Eygpt would prolly think differently. For sure good people are lost in such things, but martydom has always been something Christians have lived with. If for some reason I’m taken out in a cause that ends the killing of millions of babies, then so be it, my reward will be eternal.

Also the 80 million Christians in China are not Godless, but ya gotta look at it this way, there are 1.2 billion people in China, by numbers that leaves* 920 million * who know not God. So yeah our brothers in China are a lonely people, but I’m sure they are working hard everyday to change those numbers, pray for them.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Without weighing in on the OP’s original theory, all the posters here who profess belief in the divine origin of the Bible, yet dismiss the OP’s theory out of hand, one wonders how you view the Biblical accounts of God punishing nations via natural disasters.

I know that as Catholics we don’t believe that the Bible is a history book any more than it is a science book, but to scoff at the notion that God, as Creator of nature, could use nature to punish transgressions seems to scoff at several rather important parts of the Bible.

The Bible has to be read and understood in the context of when and who wrote it.

Tribal theology of the ancient Hebrews held that when they obeyed God, they are rewarded, when they disobey God, they are punished. It went so far that they saw it as their duty, to make sure everyone obeyed God, i.e. stoning of adulterers and homosexuals, so they wouldn’t have to be punished. However, people still suffered. So, they blamed suffering on the individual, as punishment for his sins.

However, if we look at Jesus, when he healed the man who was born blind, we see a man who was taught that he was born blind because of his sins, and that of his parents. In fact, the Pharisees in the Gospel account tell the man that he was born blind because of his sins. What did Jesus do however? He healed him and never mentions sin to him at all.

The Church in the Middle Ages also held that people suffered because of God’s punishment for their sins. But that theology falls apart when we see the suffering that Saints endured.

So it is today. I think that as long as we live in a world with sin, we will be separated from God because of sin, and being separated, we remove ourselves from his protection. But I do not believe God sends punishment on us.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

No, the Rev Wright preached 911(man made) was caused by our actions, last time I checked, different then a earthquake.
.

The Rev Wright, if you listen to his entire sermon on this little clip that the news played over and over, he was saying that 9/11 happened because of what we(The United States Government) DO, not because of what we believe.

He’s not alone in this belief and in fact, most experts and commentators have said the same thing.

Remember, President Bill Clinton sent missiles into Sudan and Afghanistan, supposedly in an attempt to kill Osama Bin Laden. However, we killed innocent people instead. Yet, we didn’t talk much about the people we killed back then, but focused more on the “Wag the Dog,” theory.

This is what Rev Wright addressed as to why we were attacked and I agree with him.

So, 9/11 wasn’t punishment by God on us, because of our sins, but rather, our own treatment of other people as being worth less than ourselves.

Jim

 

[Cari]

The Bible has to be read and understood in the context of when and who wrote it.

Tribal theology of the ancient Hebrews held that when they obeyed God, they are rewarded, when they disobey God, they are punished. It went so far that they saw it as their duty, to make sure everyone obeyed God, i.e. stoning of adulterers and homosexuals, so they wouldn’t have to be punished. However, people still suffered. So, they blamed suffering on the individual, as punishment for his sins.

Yes, I’m aware of this. However, you sidestep the issue. Events like the Flood, the plagues of Egypt, and (it has been argued) the destruction of Sodom and Gomorah were all natural phenomena used by God to punish a people. To deny that God used and can still, if He wishes, use nature to punish a people is to deny a good chunk of the Old Testament.

However, if we look at Jesus, when he healed the man who was born blind, we see a man who was taught that he was born blind because of his sins, and that of his parents. In fact, the Pharisees in the Gospel account tell the man that he was born blind because of his sins. What did Jesus do however? He healed him and never mentions sin to him at all.

This is an entirely different matter. The question at hand is whether or not God punishes a people using natural disasters.

The Church in the Middle Ages also held that people suffered because of God’s punishment for their sins. But that theology falls apart when we see the suffering that Saints endured.

So it is today. I think that as long as we live in a world with sin, we will be separated from God because of sin, and being separated, we remove ourselves from his protection. But I do not believe God sends punishment on us.

Then what, in your opinion, was happening during the Flood, during the plagues of Egypt, and with Sodom and Gomorah? Or, for that matter, what was God going to do if Ninevah HADN’T repented at Jonah’s call? You make some very nice points, but fail to answer my original question. The Bible clearly shows us that God DOES punish a people for their sins, and often used natural events to do so. How do you reconcile this to your personal opinion that He doesn’t?

 

[BamaRider]

Later on Jim said

So, 9/11 wasn’t punishment by God on us, because of our sins, but rather, our own treatment of other people as being worth less than ourselves.

I don’t agree with this, but I understand the concept, this post did a better job of explaining where he was coming from.

I’m not saying all natural disasters are some kind of divine retribution, I’m just saying it is possible, and I don’t know any God fearing person could rule that out.

But a earthquake in China that kills 50k people has to make one wonder that God is not sending a message there. I can offer no proof of that premise, other than I think its possible.

 

[Andruschak]

Let me say at the beginning, this is only MY personal opinion, but I think many of the natural disasters we are seeing in the USA (fires, hurricanes, tornados, floods) is the Father upset at our nation for allowing the scourage of abortion as a rule of law. And His way of telling us to come back to Him.

And let me state a loud “NO!” Who are you to speak for God?

As for fires, hurricanes, tornadoes, and floods, we’ve had them for decades, and long before abortion was legalized.

So what part of “God is Love” do you have problems understanding?

This has also been an opinion, and an opinion that has NOT been endorsed by my cats

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Later on Jim said

I don’t agree with this, but I understand the concept, this post did a better job of explaining where he was coming from.

I’m not saying all natural disasters are some kind of divine retribution, I’m just saying it is possible, and I don’t know any God fearing person could rule that out.

But a earthquake in China that kills 50k people has to make one wonder that God is not sending a message there. I can offer no proof of that premise, other than I think its possible.

I think you’re right on, but there’s something people overlook. Whenever God has destroyed civilizations for sin, He has always extracted His devoted worshippers from those places before bringing His judgement. For example, Noah and the ark and Lot and his family when Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed.

 

[Cari]

And let me state a loud “NO!” Who are you to speak for God?

As for fires, hurricanes, tornadoes, and floods, we’ve had them for decades, and long before abortion was legalized.

So what part of “God is Love” do you have problems understanding?

This has also been an opinion, and an opinion that has NOT been endorsed by my cats

Clearly, if you re-read the original post, the OP WASN’T speaking for God. He made it quite clear it was a theory he was perusing.

God is Love, yes, but God is also Justice. We can’t ignore the fact that there are consequences for our actions. Again, I’m not saying I agree that what happened in China was justice for the ghastly one-child policy, but to think that there are no consequences for flouting God’s law is to ignore a big part of the Bible and Church teachings.

Frankly, what shocks me most about this whole thread is people’s total unwillingness to see that God has shown Himself willing to use nature to punish the wicked. Whether or not this was the case in China is something we’ll never know in this life, but to say things like “God is Love” but not “God is Justice” and that suffering and sin are in no way connected is to show one’s ignorance of Christianity.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I think you’re right on, but there’s something people overlook. Whenever God has destroyed civilizations for sin, He has always extracted His devoted worshippers from those places before bringing His judgement. For example, Noah and the ark and Lot and his family when Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed.

More often than not, good devote people have died with the sinners.

God the father didn’t spare his own son from the cross, so why would he spare people who are less than Jesus?

As I said earlier, the idea that God punishes the world for sin, is the theology of primitive tribes of the Hebrews.

Even Pope John Paul II said that when it comes to hell, God does not send people there, they go on their own, because of choices they’ve made.

Disasters and such are the result of sin, not the result of God sending them. When we sin, its akin to drinking poison. God doesn’t make kill the person who drinks poison, the person kills himself by drinking the poison.

The same is true of sin. There are natural consequences to sin. The biggest is our separation from God and being separated from God, we lose his protection.

Alphonsus Leguori, described the evil in the world and how the saints accepted evil that was sent upon them, as being God’s will. However, he describes it in the sense that it is God’s will that we live in a world that has evil, and that is how evil is linked with the will of God. However, it isn’t God sending the evil for God is good. Its our sin that creates the evil.

So, as far as natural disasters? They are part of the world we live in, because of our fallen state, and that is God’s will. So, the end result is, good people die from them as well as sinners.

Jim

 

[Chris_LaRock]

As I said earlier, the idea that God punishes the world for sin, is the theology of primitive tribes of the Hebrews.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 

[Cari]

As I said earlier, the idea that God punishes the world for sin, is the theology of primitive tribes of the Hebrews.

That “theology of primitive tribes of the Hebrews” is, don’t forget, the “older brother” of Catholicism. To slough it off with such ease is to pretend like God didn’t prepare the Hebrews, His chosen people, for the Incarnation through the events in their history. You cannot simply dismiss the events of the Old Testament as some sort of superstitious “spin” on events of a merely natural, and not divine, origin.