We also use the Septuigent Monica, you should know this. Further, as your Orthodox Bretheren are claiming each individual church is allowed to come up with it’s own canon, I find it rather interesting that you’re claiming any church “removed books from the bible”.
This is not a legitimate question. The Canon was defined in the Western Church because of challenges and disputes over the matter. The Eastern Church (and also the Oriental Church) did not go through that. So for you to insist that there must be a point of definition for the Canon is not a valid.
If your in communion with Rome, then it’s defined very clearly for you as well. See Trent.
What was defined by Trent is the bare minimum. Please read the canon on the Canon (no pun intended
) from Trent:I know that you use the Septuagint minus 3 books.
It’s heretical if it contradicts Church doctrine. As a Catholic you should know that the doctrine preceeded the collection of the scriptures. Additionally everything outside of what the Protestants use is simply considered good to read.
As a good Catholic, I know that doctrine may not violate scripture and that scripture does not contradict doctrine. Doctrine in and of it’s self must be based upon something, that something is the whole of Apistolic Tradition, or as the Orthodox Fathers called it the “deposit of faith”. This deposite is comprised of both the Oral and written traditions and Paul the Apostle states.
Trent was a Council of the Roman Catholic Church of the Latin Rite, the only Rite affected by the Protestant Reformation. I’m not sure if the Ambrosian, Mazaraabic or Carthusian Catholic Churches fell under the Council of Trent or not since those Churches are a part of the Latin Rite - so I suppose it is possible.
JL: DEUTERO means second list, the first list was not disputed all agreed. The NT also has DEUTERO or disputed books such as Hebrews, Revealation, Jude and a couple others I can’t recall off hand.
The history of the Canon in the OO Churches hasn’t exactly been set in stone, even well into the late Middle Ages. As a general guideline, the Coptic Orthodox Canon basically mirrors the Latin Canon (most likely due to the influence of that other great African Church of Carthage), the Syriacs, as far as the NT is concerned, follow the Peshitta (which traditionally contains 3 less books), and the Armenians also mirror the Latin Canon.
I don’t think she did, but it is a natural question that arises from the Catholic claim that Protestants removed books.
Those additional books are ones simply considered “profitable to read” as you’ve admitted certain books within the Catholic Canon are. Outside those books within what Catholics call the protocanon, and those utilized in the litergical calendar, the churches can decide which of the ancient texts they want to recommend for reading.
The Catholic Church didn’t definitively decide until the Council of Trent actually. Those local councils weren’t even considered binding on the Catholic Church.
“All of us” being just the one local Church based out of Rome.
Brush up on your Church History. That is a very Protestant statement and is a misunderstanding of Catholic Dogma. Catholics and Orthodox are in agreement that the Church predates the Bible, and the Bible is only one part of Holy Tradition. Not all doctrine is drawn from the Bible, it simply never contradicts the Bible, since the Bible is drawn from that same tradition.
Of course it is the inspired Word of God. The Church was led by the Holy Spirit as to which books to select, but not all books are of equal importance.
**None of those councils you mention were Ecumencial. **
Are you reading her posts? She is constantly making this challenge, and her own faith tradition really doesn’t support being able to make this challenege as far as I know.
Yes, but when I say “profitable for reading” I’m talknig about books such as The Didache. What I mean is that when the Church finally sat down the sort out this mess, they didn’t condem the work but they also declared the book not insipred. There for, they are not in the canon of Sacred Scripture.
Correction, no ecumenical council declared the canon until Trent. However the Canon declared at Trent is the same Canon which was declared at synod after synod, as well as by all Popes.
You are correct, the Church predates the bible. But the statement is enitrly valid.
Canon means “Law”.
It is not a question of “may not” it is that they logically can not, since both come from Holy Tradition, and Holy Tradition can not contradict itself.
Actually there were disputes on the NT canon for quite some time after. I can’t rembember the details, I’d have to look at my notes, but I seem to recall the West had issues with Hebrews and Jude and the East didn’t like Revelations. In the end all were accepted.
Then what is your argument, those additional books are not considered protocanon.
We don’t recongnise Trent, and all those “Synods” were in the West, as were the Popes. Seems you have your answer to your original question, namely the West never had Supremacy in the East.
No it isn’t. Doctrine is not based on the Bible, and to say such a thing indicates you might be better off in a Church which accepts the Bible as the source of Doctrine. The Catholic Church certainly does not.
You’re correct these disputes existed, at in so far as anything I’ve read it was settled by ~400 with Hippo, Carthage 1 & 2 culimating with St. Augustine requesting that the documents of Carthage be sent to the Pope for Approval despite the fact that it was a regional coucil.
My posts #42 and #44 amply responds to this, IMHO.
And the East should care about all this, why?
I also suggest you do a bit of research into the Orthodox Church before you ask your next question, in addition to making sure you understand the Catholic position. The idea that one can create doctrine is quite blasphemous to Orthodox Christians. We hold to that doctrine which was given to us by Christ and the Apostles, and no more. Doctrine is unchanging. Therefore the Church can not come up with doctrine that contradicts Holy Tradition without ceasing to be The Church.
