The Canon of Scripture: particular verses

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The Council of Trent infallibly defined the Canon of Sacred Scripture. After listing the books of the Sacred Bible, the Council taught:

“But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema.”

The phrase “entire with all their parts” in my understanding, does not allow for a scholarly decision to omit any verse, or part of a verse, that is found in the old Latin vulgate, in any of these books.

Yet, contrary to the anathema of the Council, many scholars and many editions of the Bible have deleted phrases and entire verses, or demoted them to footnotes.
 
Doctrine is like a flower that opens, develops as we understand more. If there was a flaw in a translation of the Vulgate that was obvious human error, wouldn’t it make sense to sideline it? To do otherwise would surely be putting the sabbath over man or divorcing faith from reason?
 
The Council of Trent infallibly defined the Canon of Sacred Scripture. After listing the books of the Sacred Bible, the Council taught:

“But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema.”

The phrase “entire with all their parts” in my understanding, does not allow for a scholarly decision to omit any verse, or part of a verse, that is found in the old Latin vulgate, in any of these books.

Yet, contrary to the anathema of the Council, many scholars and many editions of the Bible have deleted phrases and entire verses, or demoted them to footnotes.
Pius XII addressed this issue specifically in Divino Afflante Spiritu, in particular sections 20-22.
 
Both of the above posts refer to differences between manuscripts, often in different languages, that would affect the wording of the translation. Certainly numerous manuscripts and languages can be consulted and can affect the translation.

But DAS says nothing about dropping verses from the Canon. Also, the infallible degree of an Ecumenical Council is dogma and cannot be changed by a subsequent papal encyclical, nor by the force of reason from a theological or scholarly argument.

The books cited by the Council, in the old Latin Vulgate, are sacred and canonical in all of their parts.

So I conclude that it is a serious error for scholars to drop verses from the Bible. I also note that in the history of the Church, only in the last few decades have scholars decided to treat the Bible as an object of scientific study, over which they have the final say, so that they would even drop verses that have been in the Vulgate, and in use by the Living Tradition, for many centuries.
 
The Council of Trent infallibly defined the Canon of Sacred Scripture. After listing the books of the Sacred Bible, the Council taught:

“But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema.”

The phrase “entire with all their parts” in my understanding, does not allow for a scholarly decision to omit any verse, or part of a verse, that is found in the old Latin vulgate, in any of these books.

Yet, contrary to the anathema of the Council, many scholars and many editions of the Bible have deleted phrases and entire verses, or demoted them to footnotes.
Examples?
 
Examples?
I assume you mean examples of deleted verses.

My translation of the Clementine Vulgate (CPDV) compared to the NAB:

NAB
7 So there are three that testify,
8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord.

CPDV
{5:7} For there are Three who give testimony in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. And these Three are One.
{5:8} And there are three who give testimony on earth: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood. And these three are one.

This text is found in the 1590, 92, 93, 98 editions of the Vulgate.

Another example is:
usccb.org/nab/bible/sirach/sirach51.htm
versus
the Challoner translation of the Latin
sacredbible.org/challoner/OT-26_Sirach.htm#51
the the CPDV
sacredbible.org/catholic/OT-26_Sirach.htm#51

And I’ve run across other examples. Some times a phrase is deleted; other times whole versus.
 
I assume you mean examples of deleted verses.

My translation of the Clementine Vulgate (CPDV) compared to the NAB:

NAB
7 So there are three that testify,
8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord.

CPDV
{5:7} For there are Three who give testimony in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. And these Three are One.
{5:8} And there are three who give testimony on earth: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood. And these three are one.

This text is found in the 1590, 92, 93, 98 editions of the Vulgate.

Another example is:
usccb.org/nab/bible/sirach/sirach51.htm
versus
the Challoner translation of the Latin
sacredbible.org/challoner/OT-26_Sirach.htm#51
the the CPDV
sacredbible.org/catholic/OT-26_Sirach.htm#51

And I’ve run across other examples. Some times a phrase is deleted; other times whole versus.
Additional scholarship over time leads different translators to make different choices regarding texts that may be corrupt, incomplete, or have multiple versions.
 
The phrase “entire with all their parts” in my understanding, does not allow for a scholarly decision to omit any verse, or part of a verse, that is found in the old Latin vulgate, in any of these books.
Perhaps your interpretation is wrong?

The Magisterium is the authoritative interpreter of Scripture as well as of the decrees of the Council. The Council of Trent is an exercise of authority of the same Magisterium of the Church and cannot be interpreted apart from how the Magisterium has interpreted and continues to interpret it.

I also note that Trent mentioned “all their parts”, not “all their verses”. Most theologians have interpreted them to mean the deuterocanonical portions of Daniel, Esther, as well as the Letter of Jerimiah under Baruch chp 6. If the Magisterium of the Church has not given a more expansive reading of the text than what theologians have traditionally read, there is no concern at all with Biblical scholarship rejecting the authenticity of say, the Comma Ionannem.
 
Perhaps your interpretation is wrong?
My thought exactly!
The Magisterium is the authoritative interpreter of Scripture as well as of the decrees of the Council. The Council of Trent is an exercise of authority of the same Magisterium of the Church and cannot be interpreted apart from how the Magisterium has interpreted and continues to interpret it.

I also note that Trent mentioned “all their parts”, not “all their verses”. Most theologians have interpreted them to mean the deuterocanonical portions of Daniel, Esther, as well as the Letter of Jerimiah under Baruch chp 6. If the Magisterium of the Church has not given a more expansive reading of the text than what theologians have traditionally read, there is no concern at all with Biblical scholarship rejecting the authenticity of say, the Comma Ionannem.
And the reason Trent would emphasize “all their parts” is precisely because the Protestants were rejecting parts of Daniel, Esther, etc.

It is also important to note that the definition on Scripture by Trent occurred before the Scriptures had been formally divided into verses! Chapters, yes; verses no!
 
It is not faithful and reasonable to interpret the phrase ‘all their parts,’ infallibly taught by the Council of Trent, as referring only to the Deuterocanonical parts of two books. The phrase refers to the entire Canon, and the term ‘all’ by no stretch of the imagination cannot refer to only two out of 73 books.

If a scholar can drop any phrase or verse from the Bible, without exception, on the basis of scholarship, then faith would be deprived of its certitude which is based on the authority of the Word of God. For then every verse would be suspect as being possibly a verse that scholars will drop from the text at a later time.

And this process of dropping verses has only begun in recent times (beginning in the 20th century). This implies that for nearly two thousand years (!!!) the Church was teaching from a Canon of Scripture that contained non-canonical non-inspired verses (the verses and parts of verses that were later dropped), and so the Church was teaching from a non-canonical source.

Therefore, the only faithful and reasonable understanding of ‘all their parts’ must include all of the verses and parts of verses of all the books in the Canon of Scripture.
 
It is not faithful and reasonable to interpret the phrase ‘all their parts,’ infallibly taught by the Council of Trent, as referring only to the Deuterocanonical parts of two books. The phrase refers to the entire Canon, and the term ‘all’ by no stretch of the imagination cannot refer to only two out of 73 books.
In your opinion.
If a scholar can drop any phrase or verse from the Bible, without exception, on the basis of scholarship, then faith would be deprived of its certitude which is based on the authority of the Word of God. For then every verse would be suspect as being possibly a verse that scholars will drop from the text at a later time.
Again, in your opinion.
And this process of dropping verses has only begun in recent times (beginning in the 20th century). This implies that for nearly two thousand years (!!!) the Church was teaching from a Canon of Scripture that contained non-canonical non-inspired verses (the verses and parts of verses that were later dropped), and so the Church was teaching from a non-canonical source.
Again, in your opinion – and in this case, from an historical perspective, a factually incorrect opinion.
Therefore, the only faithful and reasonable understanding of ‘all their parts’ must include all of the verses and parts of verses of all the books in the Canon of Scripture.
A circular argument at best – and once again, mere opinion.
 
It is not faithful and reasonable to interpret the phrase ‘all their parts,’ infallibly taught by the Council of Trent, as referring only to the Deuterocanonical parts of two books. The phrase refers to the entire Canon, and the term ‘all’ by no stretch of the imagination cannot refer to only two out of 73 books.

If a scholar can drop any phrase or verse from the Bible, without exception, on the basis of scholarship, then faith would be deprived of its certitude which is based on the authority of the Word of God. For then every verse would be suspect as being possibly a verse that scholars will drop from the text at a later time.

And this process of dropping verses has only begun in recent times (beginning in the 20th century). This implies that for nearly two thousand years (!!!) the Church was teaching from a Canon of Scripture that contained non-canonical non-inspired verses (the verses and parts of verses that were later dropped), and so the Church was teaching from a non-canonical source.

Therefore, the only faithful and reasonable understanding of ‘all their parts’ must include all of the verses and parts of verses of all the books in the Canon of Scripture.
Hi Ron, I’ve usually enjoyed your postings because they were thoughtfully and carefully written, and you’ve probably spent some time to understand the topics you write on, so I’ve learnt from what you’ve written.

Regarding your concern of the Church teaching from verses of Scripture that are dropped in later editions of the Bible (including the Nova Vulgata), Protestants would rightly be concerned and must logically be stumped given their sola scriptura beliefs; but not Catholics nor Orthodox Christians. The Catholic Church never bases any of her teachings on Scripture alone, much less on a specific verse, and has generously made use of other sources of knowledge, such as history, philosophy, natural law, science and even non-canonical literature (e.g. the writings of doctors of the Church, and St Jude quoted from apocryphal works) to explain her doctrines. Somehow, I don’t think any of the verses dropped so far under the critical scholarship would be earth-shaking enough to affect any of the Church’s reasonings offered to explain or elucidate her teachings. Though I must note that when the 1st edition RSV NT dropped sections of the gospels (e.g. the Story of the Adulterous Woman in John and the ending to Mark’s gospel), Catholic scholars saw to it that these chunks were reinstated for the RSV-CE.

I would agree that Trent’s decree would prevent sections from the Vulgate from being “decanonised” (e.g. what the 1st edition RSV NT tried to do); this extended to the deuterocanonical portions then rejected by the reformers, as well as to future excising that might arise from future textual criticisms. (Don’t ask me how many verses are needed to make a section; I don’t think the Church is ever going to say anything that precisely, much less would I have the wisdom to make an exact determination.) However, I think it is difficult to build a case that Trent wanted to micromanage each sentence and canonise each sentence in the Vulgate (the Fathers of the Council were not dealing with such sentence-by-sentence mutilation). The Magisterium of the Church has not supported an interpretation, such as yours, of the Council of Trent. Furthermore, there are many minor variations between different textual traditions of the same book, such as in Acts, and between the Septuagint texts used in the Greek-speaking Church and the Vulgate of the Latin Church. If Trent were to be read to such a micro level, would that make the Greek Church’s Bible to contain false interpolations or deletions?

Admittedly, the theological underpinings on the Canon of Scripture probably hasn’t undergone the rigorous development that would help us answer certain questions that inevitably will be raised based on current biblical scholarship. For example, what does it mean to say that a book is canonical Scripture when there are textual variations and different recensions of the same book (e.g. Tobit, Ecclesiasticus, Acts) accepted by different parts of the Church even before all the schisms? How can we describe more precisely the interplay between text and community? Previously, it was thought that biblical scholarship would allow us to arrive at a critical construction of the “original” text and would make this question superfluous, but now, scholars are increasingly aware of the textual diversity traditionally followed by the different Churches (Latin, Greek, Syraic etc) and that an “original” reconstruction is neither possible, nor perhaps useful (thus Ecole Bibique in Jerusalem has embarked on a new paradigm for translating the Scriptures). The Catholic Church embraces a diversity of scriptural traditions besides the Latin tradition as witnessed to in the Vulgate, but since Catholics hold that Scripture and Tradition form one single deposit of the Word of God, Catholic theology probably has the means to tackle such questions logically and meaningfully. But it might not have occured… just yet.
 
Did the Church intend to declare a specific translation of the Bible to be inerrant?

Or did the Church intend to declare the original inspired manuscripts to be inspired knowing that we do the best we can to translate those manuscripts into our own languages?

If the former, what happens when modern scholarship discovers a gloss or copyists error? Has the Church no right to remove such errors from the Sacred text once it has been declared to be inerrant?
 
Did the Church intend to declare a specific translation of the Bible to be inerrant?
No.
If the former, what happens when modern scholarship discovers a gloss or copyists error? Has the Church no right to remove such errors from the Sacred text once it has been declared to be inerrant?
Then they revise the translation if they want to. Or they add a footnote/comment to the translated text. The Church can of course revise translations, and that sometimes has included correcting errors.
 
I assume you mean examples of deleted verses.

My translation of the Clementine Vulgate (CPDV) compared to the NAB:

NAB
7 So there are three that testify,
8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord.

CPDV
{5:7} For there are Three who give testimony in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. And these Three are One.
{5:8} And there are three who give testimony on earth: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood. And these three are one.

This text is found in the 1590, 92, 93, 98 editions of the Vulgate.

Another example is:
usccb.org/nab/bible/sirach/sirach51.htm
versus
the Challoner translation of the Latin
sacredbible.org/challoner/OT-26_Sirach.htm#51
the the CPDV
sacredbible.org/catholic/OT-26_Sirach.htm#51

And I’ve run across other examples. Some times a phrase is deleted; other times whole versus.
Another example is the entire Book of Tobit. Between the RSV and the Vulgata, they seem to be different Books entirely.
 
It seems strange to me to talk of the canon of scripture as given by Trent and particular verses.

It’s strange because they didn’t have verses in their Bibles in those days. That came later.

Much of the problem comes because the Council spoke of something for which a standard didn’t really exist. As customarily read and the old Vulgate translation are in some places two different things.

For instance the Vulgate as written did not contain the Johannine comma, but over the years it was added to the Latin family of manuscripts until many contained it. So it would have been customarily read that way in some churchs and not customarily read that way in others.

That passage was famous enough it and a couple others were mentioned by a council (was it Trent?) and concluded they could not safely be denied.

So who knows what they meant. One could get pretty close if one were allowed to examine the proceedings of Trent in the Vatican Secret Archives, but I wouldn’t hold my breath on that happening.

But unless and until that is done. I have to say it seems kind of strange too to me for a Catholic to be taking a strong stand that the normal interpretation of that phrase by the magisterium is completely wrong. Evidence presented is nothing more than saying the way I read it is this and that from a translation too.

Is this what passes for scholarship on your website Ron? It’d be handy to know in case I ever decide to read some of it. Is it just a site of personal interpretation parading as Catholic doctrine?
 
Additional scholarship over time leads different translators to make different choices regarding texts that may be corrupt, incomplete, or have multiple versions.
Not to mention the discovery of new manuscripts.

Jerome had reservations about translating the Deuterocanonicals because he had none in Hebrew, yet they were found in the 1950s among the Dead Sea scrolls and were in Hebrew.

By Ron’s, they might not have been included, which would have been wrong.
 
It seems strange to me to talk of the canon of scripture as given by Trent and particular verses.

It’s strange because they didn’t have verses in their Bibles in those days. That came later.
Not much later, though. Robert Estienne printed a Bible with verses in 1551, the Council of Trent was 1545-1563. Trent’s decree on the canon of Scripture was promulgated in 1546 I think.
 
Perhaps your interpretation is wrong?

The Magisterium is the authoritative interpreter of Scripture as well as of the decrees of the Council. The Council of Trent is an exercise of authority of the same Magisterium of the Church and cannot be interpreted apart from how the Magisterium has interpreted and continues to interpret it.

I also note that Trent mentioned “all their parts”, not “all their verses”. Most theologians have interpreted them to mean the deuterocanonical portions of Daniel, Esther, as well as the Letter of Jerimiah under Baruch chp 6. If the Magisterium of the Church has not given a more expansive reading of the text than what theologians have traditionally read, there is no concern at all with Biblical scholarship rejecting the authenticity of say, the Comma Ionannem.
The infallible teaching of a Pope or Council is infallible per se, and does not require subsequent approval or repetition, even by the Magisterium, in order to be infallible. It stands as true on its own. Also, there have not been any magisterial decisions on doctrine, of which I am aware, that would interpret:

“as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition”

as referring to the Deuterocanonical parts of the Canon only. In fact, such an ‘interpretation’ is directly contrary to the plain meaning of the text. The term ‘the said books’ refers to the list of books in the Canon, which is all the books of the Bible with no distinction of which books are deuterocanonical. And the declaration that these books are sacred and canonical cannot refer only the those that are deuterocanonical. And the further specification of the books read in the Church and found in the Latin vulgate makes it clear that such an interpretation is entirely foreign to the text of this teaching.

The problem here is not that Trent was not clear in its meaning. Nor is the problem that the Magisterium does not keep repeating the same teachings over and over, so that we would believe by repetition rather than by teaching authority.

The problem is that the majority view of scholars or of the laity tends to be given, over time, more weight than even an infallible teaching of the Magisterium, especially after some time has passed.

And once we admit that verses and phrases can be dropped from the Canon by the majority opinion of scholars, the erosion of Sacred Scripture will have no end at all.
 
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